Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Thoughts on the new vendor changes?
- People who make their money by fighting, this means mission money or selling loot.
- Crafters who are ONLY crafters, they only have their crafting to support, they don't care about anything else.
- Crafters who support their crafting, yet also support a combat role. By this, I mean they use their money from crafting to buy Armor, Weapons, and everything that Combatents buy, but they use crafting money not mission money.
All 3 are perfectly valid playstyles, each person should be 100% able to sustain their playstyle.
In a "perfect" economy, Combatents spend 50% of their money on supplies. This may seem a lot, but if you want to fully support all 3 types above this is what is needed. This supply money is spread out equally over all professions, right now some like Armorsmith get the largest amount, and Tailors get the least. Currently, combatents spend far less then 50% of their money on supplies, they already bank a large chunk of their income.
Ok, now lets talk about loot, and "wanted" items. Things like tapes, attachments, weapons and other loot stuff. These can vary in price from low to multi-millions. Both the first and 3rd types of people above are interested in Combatent items. So will be either bidding against each other or affected by the market value of each. Already, with a few exceptions, many combatents have deeper pockets then most crafters. Allowing them to buy more.
Now your wondering what the relevancy of this is to the current vendor issue. It all ties together. Many crafters love crafting, not for the act of crafting themselves, but for the sake of running a business. They take their stock, quality, customer service and advertising. NO OTHER MMRPG ALLOWS YOU TO RUN A BUSINESS LIKE SWG DOES. Sorry for the caps, but that point needs stressed.
Now you may think that people will still be able to run a business just as well after this change. You are wrong. Now it wont matter if I have 300 items on my vendor. If one person has a cheaper version of equal quality, then that version will be bought. You may think this is good, giving the new guy a chance, yet it isn't. Once the undercutting starts, it will never stop. One person selling at 2 cpu profit will leave only to be replaced by another.
New crafters should be able to compete as well, yet they should have to work for it, just like the rest of us did. I'm sorry, butXX hours a week for a year, should give somebody an edge over somebody just starting. This will destroy that. All a new crafter has to do, especially with items that quality doesn't matter on is toss a bunch of stuff together, and they will be on 100% equal footing. This is wrong. Part of whats good about running a succesful business is the work involved and the achievement as you suceed. New crafters should work just like others, it's part of the fun. You are destroying the whole "Business" side of SWG, the one truly unique thing it had.
Now again, you may feel that price competition is good, it's not it's bad. The more prices drop, the more money that combatents will keep to themselves and not spend. This will lock crafters out of competing with them. You are stopping a whole group of people from playing the game they want. We want to run a business, the better we run our business, the better we do. We want the profits from this business to put us on equal footing with those who choose to earn money other ways. Now I'm sure a lot of combatents will read this and one star me, that's fine. I don't hate combatents, I am one. Yet I choose to make my money from crafting, not missions. Both should be equally viable.
Now, I understand that the point of this idea was to actually make it easier for people to find items. People are lazy, they want tings to be as easy as possible. I'm not saying this as an insult, I get it, this is a game, it should be fun and not work. The problem is that in an effort to make it easier, you are making it harder for others. Are shoppers really more importantthen crafters? That is what you are saying.
It is 100% possible to make both sides happy. First, scrap the current idea, I know this is brutal, you worked on it, yet let it go. Sure revamp the bazaar, but leave Vendors off it. The answer is the Global Map. Make it so when you select a vendor on the global map, you can see how many items are on the vendor. If the vendor is named "Joes Weapons," and has 200 things on it, you may want to check it out. If it has 10 items, you may or may no want to make the trip. Heck simply make the vendors on the global map a different color based upon how many items are on it.
This would make the Global Map and Merchant MORE valuable, not less. Yet at the sametime, save shoppers the work oflooking for empty vendors.
My biggest question is honestly, why wasn't thecrafting correspondants consulted before this was even started? Isn't that what they are there for? This was a huge surprise to them as well. Any idea likethis should be bounced off of them before work is started.
- Be available to view the listings of available items with price.
- Cannot purchase the item - must travel to vendor to purchase and retrieve.
- Bazaar listing gives out the waypoint to your shop
Under the above system - everyone could see what you have - what price you have on it and where it is located.
Wonder how large cities will make it with the potential loss in shuttle port travel fees and city taxes..........
I am so happy I forgot to start that run of Merchant Barker Modules 
Jenden wrote:
not quite. Items are still purchased remotely, you just have to go to the store to pick them up. Really not better, might bump up impulse sales a tiny bit but still doesn't solve the fundamental problem that it kills all the work people have put into making their shops look good.
jefmes wrote:
I was pushing hard in the main thread to get rid of the auto-purchase, and it looks like it's gone!Good for us, for sure.
Jenden,
Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to see some of the detail points here.
1.) How is the ability to purchase remotely any different from what goes on in Bazaar now? Shouldn't both systems be consistent and intermeshed?
2.) How exactly do you see this "killing" the work that people put into their shops? Most places I have seen are just rugs slapped on the floor with tables in front of the vendors. Places like Yod's on Radiant are actually places that people go to sightsee, but they are few and far between.
Again, just trying to get a bit more information. Thanks.
Message Edited by Micco30 on 02-13-2005 07:47 AM
TK,
Just wanted to ask a couple of questions on what you and AO are saying here. Not trying to argue, just tryng to geta sense why you think this is so bad? I tried to use AO's original post, but the wonders of modern science won't allow me to use it for some reason... sheesh!
TheRealTK421 wrote:
AO's post (pg. 2) summed up a lot of my feelings on this change.
The short version is that this change will likely cause a lot (and I mean a LOT) of long-time, veteran crafter/businesspeople out of the game entirely or just to close shop.
Why do you think this would happen? How do you see this driving a "lot" of veteran crafters/ businessmen (women) out of the game?
That will reduce 'quality' goods and leave many markets prey to crafters that don't have the resources to make 'uber' products...only mediocre stuff. Then, we'll see those mediocre products sold in bulk via the new vendor listings for...1k each? 500cr each?
Again, how will the ability to sell affect quality? Aren't price and quality two separate entities in any economic system? As a real world example, Chysler owns Daimler- Benz. Not sure that the price points for both lines of cars are the same, although they are getting closer every day
Oh.....and, count on the 50k entrance fee on any business you visit, most likely.
Hate to say it, but this already happens. People who use these kinds of tactics quickly get called out on the message boards, as far as I can see. Using this tactic can you get a really "loyal" following... and not in the good way, if you know what I mean
I can tell you that it's very possible that this one change, without some serious changes, will cause me to liquidiate my current inventory, close shop and just go 100% combat. However, if I see the marketplace going the way I suspect it will go, I'll likely just /cancel.
How do you suspect the marketplace will go? I'm interested to hear why you think this is a wholly negative change for our sales?
Thanks for your time TK
I guess Tarquinas is a special place then. I know merchants who have spent literally 20-30 hours at least decorating their shops (and looking for those decorations), along with easily 20-30 million credits in the cost of the decoration. Now, those decorations will have no bearing on whether the person goes back to that shop, because the first place they look is always the bazaar.
/bow
Micco30 wrote:
TK,
Just wanted to ask a couple of questions on what you and AO are saying here. Not trying to argue, just tryng to geta sense why you think this is so bad?
I don't think the basic concept is bad...but I think it needs tweaking, that's all. If it goes in 'as is'...it will be bad.
TheRealTK421 wrote:
AO's post (pg. 2) summed up a lot of my feelings on this change.
The short version is that this change will likely cause a lot (and I mean a LOT) of long-time, veteran crafter/businesspeople out of the game entirely or just to close shop.
Why do you think this would happen? How do you see this driving a "lot" of veteran crafters/ businessmen (women) out of the game?
First, I say this cause of what I've seen them say already about this change.
The reasons are varied and have already been posted in this and other threads. The big one, I think, is that making the marketplace ONLY about price is a bad thing. Let's not kid ourselves, if you're after an item and you don't already have a vendor/crafter you work with (and can trust to have it in stock) you will use this new system. If price is the only factor to making the sale, I foresee big crafters pitching fits having to spend time buying out undercutters and also just relisting all / most of their inventory.
That will reduce 'quality' goods and leave many markets prey to crafters that don't have the resources to make 'uber' products...only mediocre stuff. Then, we'll see those mediocre products sold in bulk via the new vendor listings for...1k each? 500cr each?
Again, how will the ability to sell affect quality?
I was stating that we'd see less 'best/uber' quality items if some of the long-time crafters close up shop if the change goes Live as is...
Aren't price and quality two separate entities in any economic system?
Absolutely not. They are intrinsically tied at the hip. Higher quality goods always cost more for the consumer due tothe time/money needed to create said higher quality.
As a real world example, Chysler owns Daimler- Benz. Not sure that the price points for both lines of cars are the same, although they are getting closer every day
Import duties, for one thing. If I'm not mistaken, a Benz will cost less to purchase in the EU than in the US. Same car, same base cost (roughly)...the difference is shipping the things over the 'pond'.
Oh.....and, count on the 50k entrance fee on any business you visit, most likely.
Hate to say it, but this already happens. People who use these kinds of tactics quickly get called out on the message boards, as far as I can see. Using this tactic can you get a really "loyal" following... and not in the good way, if you know what I mean
Mmmm...true. Again, this was hyperbole on my part. I don't expect it on literally every vendor or crafter's house. It is possible that the practice would become more widespread though.
What might alleviate this is some 'Will-call' entrance fee that's separate from the regular entrance fee and is capped at some % of the purchase price of the item. That means it has to be calculated for each customer differently though...so I am not sure I see this happening. It's one option though...
I can tell you that it's very possible that this one change, without some serious changes, will cause me to liquidiate my current inventory, close shop and just go 100% combat. However, if I see the marketplace going the way I suspect it will go, I'll likely just /cancel.
How do you suspect the marketplace will go? I'm interested to hear why you think this is a wholly negative change for our sales?
Oh I suspect we'd still get sales, that's not quite the issue. It's what we all have to do to GET those sales that bugs me. In addition, I worry for the guy that wants to run a business like Jenden out a backpack and doesn't even have a vendor.
Honestly, I can't prognosticate the marketplace for SWG anymore than I can for the real world...no one can. I can only comment on how I see this affecting my crafting/business time in game and what I see other crafter/merchants saying.
I think it will devalue a lot of our products...too much so...and perhaps make some items harder to find because they just aren't made as much anymore. If the product becomes less worthwhile to make (because lower prices make it harder to recoup costs or 'add value') then they just won't get made.
Example: R3 Harvest droids. If someone doesn't know squat about how these work, but want one, do you think they will take the time to check the Harvest rating on all the ones listed? I foresee them simply finding the cheapest and/or closest and moving on.
What bugs me, in a way I can't quite explain right now, is that this moves us further away from a marketplace that can truly place quality into the equation for competition. It becomes all about price...and I think that's bad.
As many have stated here before, we shouldn't be just selling on the price of a droid...it has to be about the 'value' to the end user.
Respectfully,
The DE Survey droids aren't exactly a huge/important seller for them and most people just use SWG to track down what they want.
What if we had those 'versioned' into...
"Vendor 'Survey' Devices": Basically...they shop FOR you. Hitting a particular vendor (or group, if it's a higher quality droid) and report back on available of item X, Y or Z.
Thoughts?
/bow
Respectfully,
Message Edited by GraySeven on 02-13-2005 11:11 AM
I won't spend time buying up products that are less than the quality I'd like to present to my clients. If some guy makes mediocre R3 Harvest droids...I'll just let that be most likely. It's not worth my time to just fly about buying up this and that.
GraySeven wrote:
Don't worry about undercutting. Us lazy DE's will buy up the undercutters stuff and resell at the average rate...
/bow
Respectfully,
GraySeven wrote:Don't worry about undercutting. Us lazy DE's will buy up the undercutters stuff and resell at the average rate...Also, Browsing and buying are fine, but you should still have to go get it.Message Edited by GraySeven on 02-13-2005 11:11 AM
And by buying his goods he thinks he's doing well, so he makes twice as many next time to put on the bazaar... eventually you've got a bloated inventory that would take you years to sell off.
As for the vendor survey idea TK, I really like it. The only snag I can see with it is shops with entry fees. Do the droids get to skip the entry fee (not sure some merchants would be too happy about that), would they just skip over those shops, or would there be some kind of dialog box... Other that that, like I said, I think its a great solution... hehe, then again, I'm of the opinion that droids can solve any problems in game (and probably cause half of them to begin with).