Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Once again nothing but air it seems.
Again... *Bow* Nicely put.
Drashk wrote:
Instead of the droid being a MDE specific combat droid, it could be simply a MDE droid that has the ability to accept a combat module. One of the things thatI am going to bring up in the next few weeks is that each crafting profession should have some kind of Master Level perk. I don't think that a droid that is specificly used for combat would be a good idea.Having a droid that is a MDE perk that can also accept a combat module, would be more in line with being a Droid Engineer.
Drashk wrote:
Having a droid that is a MDE perk that can also accept a combat module, would be more in line with being a Droid Engineer.
You know, another thought I like a lot:
I an REALLY in favor of more droid partial-specialization.By partial, I mean that most droids can use most modules, but only certain droids can use the high-level versions of each type of module. For example, I think "combat droids" should be prevented from having any modules other than attack, armor, and data/item storage; all non-combat droids should be able to take medical modules 1-4, but only the medical droids can take 5-6; all droids can take item storage 1-4, but only the BLL can take 5-6; etc. I think all of these changes help to encourage droid sales on all models.
Here is my thought: If something like this were implemented, maybe the DE-only droid perk would be to give the DE a droid that WAS NOT specialized...a droid that only DEs could use, and that could take modules of every type (levels 1-6) ANDhad more module socketsthan every other droid (maybe even 3 armor sockets instead of 2). Basically, a DE "swiss-army" droid.
Another thought: What if that DE-only droid were the repair droid that is already in the game, and that droid (as well as being fully combat capable if the DE inserts any combat module) is the ONLY droid that can take a repair module. Think about it...DE's make droids, DE's can use all available droids, and DEs can use a DE-only droid that presents a continuing demand for DE services: droid repair.
I like it...
Drashk wrote:
Kollos wrote:
No offense, Drashk, but those groupings are so nebulous that there's no credibility to the numbers you are using. You're lumping several different groups together to get to that 62% "majority".
For instance, where would you put me?
I don't fit precisely into either of those groups. The one big thing that I oppose is a DE-only combat droid. Does that opposition put me into the "pure crafter" group as you have delineated the groups? If so, why? I support a cert system. I support Droid Engineers being able to call more droids than other professions. I support Droid Engineers (particularly Masters) having some sort of unique droid that only they can use, as long as it isn't a combat droid. I even support Droid Engineer certs being as "powerful" as other combat professions' certs.
"Pure crafter" is not the opposite of "give DEs some benefits", yet that's how your groupings spin it.
Actually Kollos, you do fit into one of these groups by your own statement.By your statement you are in the 62% group that wants the DE profession to be a Crafter that gets some kind of 'perk' such as the ability to call a second droid. Its the same group that you were already in when I did my search.
The Prue crafters are the ones that have stated that they do not want any benefits.
I think I have a pretty firm grasp on what many are looking for, especially after reading approximately 400+ posts to find this information.
Supporting perks for Master-level characters has nothing to do with whether or not your primary focus is crafting or combat. If you're going to label one group "pure crafter" and the other one "almost everything else" then by definition the "pure crafter" group is going to be in the minority. That's an exceptionally poor way to categorize the opinions on these issues.
I am a pure crafter. I believe Droid Engineers should not have any combat oriented perks that are not also available to other pure crafting classes. We are no different than, and should be no different than, Weaponsmiths or Armorsmiths when it comes to combat abilities.
I have read the same 400+ posts and have arrived at a different conclusion. In particular I find your summary groupings interesting when compared to the the poll you conducted on the issue. I haven't done a precise count on it, but I would wager than more than 33% of the people who responded said they were pure crafters.
TheRealTK421 wrote:
I happen to think that it's perfectly logical for DEs to have access to better combat droids than the masses. Why?
Training.
We KNOW how to use our 'products' because we built them.
It is right to think that a guy using a PC (and Windows) for the very first time will be able to do/usethe same things as a guy that can program a Cray?
Think about it, all.
Do you believe that the workers at Ford who put the cars together are as good at driving them as Michael Schumacher?
Do you believe that the workers at Colt who put the guns together are as good at shooting them as an Olympic sharpshooter?
Do you believe that the workers at K2 or Burton are as good at riding their snowboards as Jeremy Bloom?
Do you believe that the workers at Kawasaki who build their dirt bikes are as good at riding them as those crazy nuts you see on TV in the X-Games?
Do you believe that the workers at Dell who build the computers are as good at using them as the network administrators at the company where you work?
Yes, please do think about it. The answer is obvious.
Knowing how to BUILD something has very little to do with knowing how to USE that something to its greatest effect. It makes far more sense for the combat professions to be able to get the most out of our combat droids than it does for us to be able to do so simply because they are trained in combat and we are not. Repair them? Ha! But use them effectively in combat?
Droids are designed to be semi-autonomous - which means that virtually anyone should be able to use them effectively. If you're going to draw a distinction between professions, however, make sure you draw the correct distinction. If you must draw a distinction, then combat professions should be better at using combat droids than Droid Engineers are.
Kollos wrote:
Do you believe that the workers at Ford who put the cars together are as good at driving them as Michael Schumacher?
Do you believe that the workers at Colt who put the guns together are as good at shooting them as an Olympic sharpshooter?
Do you believe that the workers at K2 or Burton are as good at riding their snowboards as Jeremy Bloom?
Do you believe that the workers at Kawasaki who build their dirt bikes are as good at riding them as those crazy nuts you see on TV in the X-Games?
Do you believe that the workers at Dell who build the computers are as good at using them as the network administrators at the company where you work?
Yes, please do think about it. The answer is obvious.
Knowing how to BUILD something has very little to do with knowing how to USE that something to its greatest effect. It makes far more sense for the combat professions to be able to get the most out of our combat droids than it does for us to be able to do so simply because they are trained in combat and we are not. Repair them? Ha! But use them effectively in combat?
Droids are designed to be semi-autonomous - which means that virtually anyone should be able to use them effectively. If you're going to draw a distinction between professions, however, make sure you draw the correct distinction. If you must draw a distinction, then combat professions should be better at using combat droids than Droid Engineers are.
OK, you're starting to argue both sides of the fence here. You can't compare droids to inanimate objects like guns and then say they are semi-autonomous. Which is it? If they are inanimate, then you would be correct, but they aren't. DEs don't just build the droids, they have to program them as well. if you look at it from this perspective, it makes sense. I built the droid, I programmed the droid, I should be able to make it work better than anyone, right.
Oh, and just a personal pet peeve....Network Administrators don't work on PCs, they work on routers and switches. System Administrators work on PCs and Servers.
The ability to call out a second droid can be construed as a combat perk, even if the droid does not have the ablity to participate in combat. An arggo'ed creature willattack anything that comes within its territory, if the aggro system is working correctly, this includes non-combat droids as well. This gives a MOB one more target to chose from, when placed in a combat situation. As much as you may want to think of the ability to call more than one Utility droid as a non-combat skill, it can still be used in the context of combat.
While looking at each of the responses, I looked at what each person was asking for and what each person was against.
Those that voiced that they were against having more than one droid, special combat like abilities, or wanted nothing other than being able craft droids for anyone else to use were placed in the crafting only pile
Those that stated they wanted to be a mechanized version of CHs were added to the strictly combat pile.
Those that stated that they felt that Droid Engineers should have some kind of bonus, that could be related to combat, whether it be an extra droid, better certs, or even a MDE only combat droid, were placed in a third pile.
I looked at each and every response that I could find and placed it into one of those three piles.If a crafter only person mentioned that they would like to see a cert system added, and wouldn't mind having a little more ability to call out their droids, they were added to the 62% pile. If a person stated that they wanted to control all of the combat droids that they made, if they were more powerful that the current ones, they were added to the combat pile. If a person answered that they only wanted to craft without giving any other information, they were added to the crafter pile.
I could spend the next 2 days doing nothing more than going over each post made and trying to come up with a category to place them in, but all that this would do is make it so there are15 differentcategories with each category having 5-10% of the overall vote.
I appoligize that you don't like how I came up with the numbers, but unless you want to sit around for the next 6 months answering weekly polls just to narrow this issue down, these are the numbers that I am going with.
BTW, if you read the poll that Dustin_Aschecreated, on the combat/crafter issue, the percentage of DE that want to be strictly crafters,without any kind of perkthat could be usedin combat, is only about 31% of the entire vote.
GnomeAd wrote:
OK, you're starting to argue both sides of the fence here. You can't compare droids to inanimate objects like guns and then say they are semi-autonomous. Which is it? If they are inanimate, then you would be correct, but they aren't. DEs don't just build the droids, they have to program them as well. if you look at it from this perspective, it makes sense. I built the droid, I programmed the droid, I should be able to make it work better than anyone, right.
Oh, and just a personal pet peeve....Network Administrators don't work on PCs, they work on routers and switches. System Administrators work on PCs and Servers.
Uh... no, I'm not, I'm firmly on one side of the fence. I was responding to a post, and in that post droids were compared to an inanimate object (a PC). So I can make that same comparison in order to counter the argument.
Then, in my concluding paragraph, I can point out that the entire argument doesn't make much sense anyway because droids aren't inanimate - they are designed to be semi-autonomous, which means that virtually everyone should be able to use all of them equally. I didn't use those exact words, but that's essentially what I was saying.
Oh, and at my company the guy's called a Network Administrator and he does everything. 
I agree with Kollos here.
Should we, asMaster Droid Engineers, get a perk for being a master of an elite profession? Yes.
Should we, as Droid Engineers, be the only ones able to use the best combat droid? No.
A Droid Engineer is someone that can make the parts and put together a droid...a machine that has limited AI that anyone can teach to accept auditory signals to do already specifically defined functions (i.e. attack, stay, group, etc). A Droid Engineer is not a master tactician in training that makes combat droids to rule over people. If anything, the DE might be able to "tweak" droids to do things that are above and beyond what they normally can do. This would be like adding combat modules to droids. Or changing out service modules to change the function of the droid or upgrade it. Maybe the DE can temporarily power boost a droid so that it does more damage for a short amount of time. But actually limiting certain chassis types or modules or full on droids only to the DE profession would be a joke to the class.
Whatis a person doing when they make a Droid Engineer? They are getting into a business/profession that creates droids for cash. There is no Knockdown ability gained. There is no special defenses for being a DE. If we got some kind of unique droid, who do we sell it to? Certainly not other DE's. They would have made their own. There is no such thing as a DE dabbler either. If we were to get a perk, it should be an ability and not special droid.
/bow
Drashk wrote:
Instead of the droid being a MDE specific combat droid, it could be simply a MDE droid that has the ability to accept a combat module. One of the things thatI am going to bring up in the next few weeks is that each crafting profession should have some kind of Master Level perk. I don't think that a droid that is specificly used for combat would be a good idea.
(I'll keep it simple.) Why?
Having a droid that is a MDE perk that can also accept a combat module, would be more in line with being a Droid Engineer.
This yields no 'perk' at all. Why?
It means that other classes are able to buy/use the same droid, with the same installed module. That kind of decreases the entire meaning of there being a class-specific perk (when one doesn't even have to be in the class to get it).
Maybe I misunderstood what you were suggesting but I fail to see how that suggest won't lead to EVERY combat-oriented player having one of the MDE, combat-ready built droids.
That's hardly a perk as much as it a new iteration of the Probot problem. Think about it...
Respectfully,
/bow
Daker-Naritus wrote:
Ok TK, I have always had a big problem with this argument, but I will offer an alternative (against my better judgment, because it circumvents some of my arguments on the issue)
That's okay...I always enjoy pointing out the shortcomings in alternate viewpoints (/jk).
I think it is silly to say that anyone is better at "using" droids. There are no remote controls, no joysticks, no operators, and (using your example of a PC) no one typing at a keyboard. Skill is irrelevant. The DE programs the droid initially with AI and commands, and anyone that can speak can thereafter issue those commands. It does not take an engineer to say "attack," "stay," or "go repair that." It just doesn't make sense to me.
Well, I think this is (to be honest) more of a shortfall in the overall design of droid "use" in the game. While I understand where you come from on this, I will say that...
No, not anyone can program droids. Think about all the not-so-savvy droid users that can't even recharge a droid, much less name one.
That sort of situation is EXACTLY what I'm referring to here.
That same not-so-savvy droid client might well eventually figure out how to name the droid, or how to recharge it, but I don't believe that this is "use" of a droid.
Maybe I should have used the word "skills" instead of "Training".
A lower-level CH can only use/control lower-level creatures. Only a Master has the "skills" (training) to be able to tame/control/use the highest level creatures available. I simply do not see why this system doesn't allow for MDEs to have the same 'skill-earned' perk that comes from the possibility of an MDE-only droid.
Now, as an alternative, here is what does make sense: The empire beat the hell out of the droid armies, and have outlawed combat droids. The art of making certain combat droids has all but been lost, and spare parts are relatively rare. Consequently, it would take a great deal of engineering skill to figure out how to make some of these combat droids, requiring reverse engineering on old parts and ingenuity. Because they are hard to make, and parts are very rare, it makes some sense that only DEs would be able to makecertain "lost" combat droids and the droids (being a major lifetime accomplishment to the DE to make) would be way too important and valuable to sell to anyone else.
This is the Droid Quest idea (similar to the Riis (sp?) armor quest). It is a possible way to add this sort of MDE-level perk, I suppose, while at the same time possibly keeping them 'rare'. The main issue there would be how said quest was put together in-game.
Now, this argument could also be used to support the contradictory positions of "DE's should have a DE-only droid, but that droid should (1) not be combat oriented, or (2) should not be that much more powerful and DE-only droids"and "everyone should be able to use all combat droids, but DE's make them so they should get to have more out at the same time," but it does support the DE-only droid nonetheless.
Yes...it does. I think we need to leave all the options on the table. However, any option that effectively makes the MDE-perk 'item' available to the non-DE masses is NOT a perk...just another product.
Respectfully,
Ya know, StrayCat, you might be on to something here. Maybe we can try to unify the DE argument with the following:
- All the droids a DE can make are useable by everyone.
- A DE gets a new skill that improves as we progress up the skill tree that works like the CH "enrage pet" skill to increase the effectiveness of combat and non-combat droids.
What do you say, can we compromise on this idea?
TK, I was refering to a droid like the Omni Droid from the thread a few months back. The droid in question would only be usable by MDE and would allow for a combat module to be installed, but is not specificly a combat droid. Giving a MDE a MDE-only droid that is specificly geared for combat does not follow suit with what many are asking for on all sides of the spectrum.
We are in tremulous waters right now and need to really think about what we really want as a profession. Asking that DE not be turned into the next CH profession yet at the same time asking for the ablity to call upon a MDE-only combat droid will send a mixed signal to the DEV team and could result in turning us into what we dread most. I'm not saying that this is how things are right now, but I am saying that with this change towards wanting community feed back we need to think about what has been done in the past, with all professions, andwhatsome are asking for.
DEV 101 - A general ruleof thumb that past publishes have shown us tends to suggest that the DEVsfollow an all or nothing approach to fixing a profession.If they change something about a profession theytend to change it all.Askingforan MDE-only combat droidand not turning us into a CH knock-off is like asking to have some of the best pie in the galaxy, but without the added calories.
/bow
Kollos wrote:
You know, sometimes I really hate these **edit**ing forums. I had a nice reply written up for you regarding your other post, but the **edit**ing forums logged me out while I was writing it and so I lost it.
I can't tell you how many times this has happened to me.
Anyway...
I've explained this one so often that I'm sick of explainingit.
It's not a problem if the unique combat droid is not the best combat droid we can make. If it is the best combat droid we can make, however, it turns us into a combat class because combat-oriented players (which I call "Droid Handlers") will join the profession for the main purpose of obtaining that combat droid.
This is, I'd like to point out, pure conjecture...based on how you believe that the unique droid would play out, in terms of its design and implementation. There is no reason to believe that this would be the case. You must consider the tradeoff.
How hard is it to obtain/use the item in relation to what practical benefits it provides!!
For example: If the unique 'perk' droid in question yielded, say, an extra 10% to damage, do you really think we'd see 1000s of new 'DH' style players become DEs just for that level of benefit?
Think about it...
Add up the skills that they COULD take by not having to do Eng 1-4 and Master DE, then apply those to <<insert supposedly uber combat profession here>>. It would likely be a better thing for these types of players to simply buy/use the best non-perk combat droid available and still get to be a BH or Commando or whatever.
Think about it...
"Droid Handlers" will come to the sudden realization that they can defray some of the costs of the grind by dumping droids on the market as they grind.
Did that happen with Holo-DEs? Not on my server. Most of these guys grinded and grinded up the profession a matter of days...just to get to the top.
That's likely how the 'uber DH' crowd would think...they are headed straight for Master DE. Why waste time (and precious Adv. Droid Frame building resources) on anything else?
You have to keep in mind that the mindset of these players is different than our own. YOU might defray your costs...but I doubt most of them would.
The droid market is already fragile. This sort of dumping would wreck the droid economy and probably drive many pure crafter Droid Engineers out of business.
Uhhh...there's a droid economy?!? Why doesn't anyone tell me these things?!?!?!
Why should pure crafters be driven out of business just so that we can have yet another combat class?
Wow...that's a pretty 'Chicken Little' viewpoint of this issue. I think that you're partially right to worry about this worst-case scenario.However, I'd have to think that the Devs are likley hip to the 'pet problem' enough that they could (with our help) ensure that this didn't happen.
Basically, it would be too detrimental to a combat-minded character to take MDE just to get the unique 'perky' combat droid vis a vis buying the best non-MDE droid and keeping better combat skills from other professions.
By the way...just out of curiousity...
Have you DONE combat? If so, as what class? Note: I'm not trying to be crass or anything...I just think it would help me to know.
TheRealTK421 wrote:
If there are the ex-CHs that rush in and think that getting to MDE will let them be "uber" with their droid, they might think again when they realize what a grind DE can be.
They might realize that the combat bonuses aren't nearly what they could be, had they simply used the best possible non-MDE combat droid and focused skill points elsewhere (for more uberness).
And...even if they did decide to play that way...they wouldn't really compete with you for sales. They got MDE to get the Droideka and go out and be uber in combat with it.
How does that honestly hurt the game/profession/etc.?
If, as you surmise, the MDE-only combat droid isn't as uber as the Droid Handlers expected, then why does it have to be better at all?
Uhhh...because, it's a perk. That's the point.
Why can't it just be a graphics-only variation on a droid that anyone can use?
Well, it could be that too. However, if it were available for use by the masses, it ceases to be an actual perk and simply becomes the most sought-after combat droid. This means the perk turns into the droid that EVERYONE uses (read: not a perk).
Why run the risk of ruining the market for the pure crafters just so that the hybrid players can have a 10% advantage?
This does NOT have to ruin a "pure" crafter's market. If your market were ruined by inclusion of an MDE-only combat droid, I'd think you have bigger issues to worry about, man. Seriously.
I see NO "pure" crafters getting put out of business by this. Who are they going to sell it to anyway, other MDEs?
If all you really want is a recognizable perk, why does it have to be better than any other combat droid we can make?
Because if it's not, it ceases to be a perk. And, I guess it wouldn't have to be better...if it were....different. I'm not yet sure how to quantify that ("better") but I'm sure that there's a way. I'll have to put some thought into this and see if I can come up with something that might address all the viewpoints and concerns.
Keep in mind, pure crafters wouldn't lose ANY sales to non-DEs. Non-DEs would still have the SAME level combat droids as always...they wouldn't be able to use the MDE-only droid, so there's no point in selling them one.
Why draw combat-oriented players into a crafting profession at all?
**cough**Holocrons**cough**
Combat types in crafting professions are here to stay, my man. I suggest that you learn to live with it and try to fit it in.
Let's flip your question to me around, just for fun.
Why draw crafting-oriented players into a combat profession at all?
Uhhh...let's see...
Do you have a better idea for who I'm to defend myself when I'm out doing those lonely harvester runs? Or...making changes to my factory (surrounded by red /cons)?
We crafters are FORCED to have some way to defend ourselves. A single Probot? Hehehe...I don't think so.
The other reason....because they are hybrids. The playstyle of said user is NOT to be "pure" crafter. That's as good of a reason as I need, personally...but the other one stated is just as good of a reason.
Why not keep them separate and let the people who want to play hybrids create their own by learning multiple professions?
Well, for right now, we HAVE to be separate. The design and implementation of the system forces this. Please understand...I do not want DEs to be the new version of CH. I do not want to be able to solo Krayts with my MDE-only perk droid.
I DO, however, want to be able to build and use a "perk" for combat that gives me the ability to hold my own in solo combat, be a force in group combat and enjoy some PvP (if I so choose).
THAT's why.
Respectfully,