Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Losing looped macros will hurt droid sales.
Straker_Atrella
Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:20 pm
#40
I honestly like us discussing things here. Jenden andI disagree, but we cando so in a manner that is logical and open to discussion. I actually read about 40 pages of the main macro thread, it just got insane. Here we can talk about stuff without it getting lost.
People hear me talk about 3rd party applications and their use, let me talk about my history with those, plus the evil they can do.
I played Asherons Call for 3 years, it's kind of like EQ.
There is no EULA against 3rd party applications there, AC is as old as EQ, so it was one of the first, a platform for others to learn from. 3rd party applications were very innocent at first, PortalBots (a form of travel,) Buff Bots, helper programs for managing inventory, programs to give alerts for monsters, literally hundreds of things.
In any MMRPG, players always come up with hundreds of great ideas to make the game better. Good logical ideas, that would be implemented, except the Devs only have so much coding time.In AC, 3rd party applications implemented many of these ideas, enhancing the game for all. The AC developers realized that actually they were good for the game, plus they hadno real way to stop them (we will get into that later.) Actually some of the 3rd party coding geniuses got hired by AC to implement many of their ideas into the game.
Life was good, but then the evil started.
Clever programers took helpfull programs to a new level, they made smart ones that could fight as well as a person almost. They started slow, then got better with time. Now people began to level 24/7. AC isn't like SWG, the level / power cap is so high, that it was never really designed to be met.
As the AFK hunting programs got better, cries from the community began to rise. Many oppossed to the AFK hunters, they were not fair, and they were taking all the good hunting spots. Yet others insisted that they "pay their $13 a month, they will play how they want." Debates were hot and heavy for a long time, yet during this time, the "exploiters" continued to massivly outlevel the others. Reaching levels that were unfair to th rest of the players, more people felt left behind so they jumped on the bandwagon.
In the end, a new AC policy was formed. 3rd party applications were still ok, combat applications were ok. AFK combat applications were not allowed. You could still do non-combt stuff AFK though, such as buffbots and such.
Yet the problems persisted, here is why. It is ILLEGAL for SWG to look at your computer and tell what applications you are running. It is impossible from a server point of view to tell if it's a player or a program clicking the buttons. Now you as a player may say "I can spot an AFKer a mile away," then report them. No you can't, here is why.
#1. Afk is not illegal in SWG, 3rd party applications are.lets sayI make a spambot using the new macro system, that can advertize for 1 hour using the current system, that is 100% legal. Now, at home, I set an alarm every hour to remind me to hit that macro button every hour. To a passerby, it may LOOK like I am afk, but in reality, I am actually hitting that button every hour. 100% legal.
#2. SOE is in the business to make money, if they are going to ban people, especially in large numbers, they totally need to make sure bans are for legitimate reasons.
#3. If CSR's actually start checking people to see if they are bots, Pro-Bot (pardon the pun,) people will PRETEND to be bots. They will buff and spam looking exactly like a bot, HOPING to be reported. Then when the CSR comes, they answer all questions happily. What this does is confuse people to what re bots and what are not. It also takes up valuable CSR time, spreading them thinner or causing more to be hired.
#4. It is EXTREMELY hard to prove if somebody is using a 3rd party application to be afk. You can't imagine the excuses people make, all possible enough to lend doubt. People are ALLOWED to go afk, they are ALLOWED to run macros. How do you prove that it is a 3rd party ap and not a person? The easy suggestion is for the csr to talk to them. Here are just a few possible answers to why that person didn't answer the CSR.
-"Yea my macro was in the middle, I was coming back in 5 minutes."
-"No speakese de Englaise."
-"Oops,I don't read chat, way to much spam in Coronet."
-"Sorry had my /notepad up over my chat screen."
-"Yea I was alt tabbed, working on my homework."
-"God those caht windows are annoying, I play in cnt-h mode."
I just thought of all of those right now, there will be many more. Every single one of those answers is legal, if you start banning people without cause, you will suddenly find yourself without players.
Now as I have said, 3rd party applications can be helpfull, yet inevitably, they lead into a have and have not situation. Where the people who use the 3rd party applications have an edge over the people who dont.
When I first heard about the SWG macro system, I actually thought the devs were geniuses, that they learned from the mistakes of other games. You see "cracking" SWG and making 3rd party applications takes a lot of time and effort. For people to spend that time and effort, they need to get a significant return out of it. By putting the macro system in game, the Devs gave the power of the macro to EVERYBODY. They knew people could make 3rd party apps if they really really wanted too, leaving them in the hands of a few. Yet by minimizing the gain of the 3rd party ap, the macro system gave certain abilities to everybody.
Now don't delude yourself, 3rd party aps exist in SWG, people use mouse clicking programs all the time, especially to level through crafting professions. Yet again, the gain is minimal, so they master in 2 days, where it takes somebody using a legit craft macro a week. Not a big deal.
Now we move to the current macro system proposal. Seems like a decent fix, but will it fix anything? Perhaps it is more like opening Pandoras box.
The most basic mouse click program will bypass these proposed changes easily. Once people cross the "cheater" line and get away with it, and they WILL get away with it, then people will grow more and more bold. They will find better ways to cheat, more 3rd party aps to make, giving them more and more of an edge over the "honest" player. Then the Devs are forced to play "catchup" spending time and resources to catch exploiters and not making content.
Right now, AFK play (with or without 3rd party aps,)may be offensive, yet the gain over real playing is minimal. Do not create a situation where certain people will still AFK yet legal players cannot.
You can easily fix AFK buffbots and spambotswithout huge changes such as this.
I really wish there was someway that aDev could read this post. Thank you for your time.
Jenden
Wed Aug 04, 2004 11:02 pm
#41
Your logic is good for the most part, but it fails in one key point... We might as well have 3rd party applications right now. Its no different than the macro system really. So arguing that there will be more 3rd party macros doesn't mean anything if they might as well already be in the game. The only way you get anything out of the situation is if you take a chance and get rid of the macros. You know the problem isn't going away if you leave them in, you know there's a *chance* that it'll go away if you take them out.... so you take them out. I have yet to see an argument that shows where something is rendered worthless without recursive macros (besides the smuggler faction buying deal, but that needs to be fixed rather than patched over, and even without a fix you could just write a long macro and call it a couple times).
Message Edited by Jenden on 08-04-2004 11:03 PM
Ghost_Shadow
Thu Aug 05, 2004 12:23 am
#42
Loosing looped macros will not only hurt droid sales it will also hurt all none master crafters. And in the long run it will hurt the whole community as more and more masters quit the game because of all the long standing bugs that don't get fixed.
I just can't understand whytheDevs choose to fix things that are of absolutely no concern to the community again and again. Didn't they learn a single bit of the approx. 3.000 posts to the delay of the CB? Instead of making fixes to the Combat-System and theGCW they spend precious Dev time to change the Macro-System. Andinstead of making clever changes they just come overwiththe nerf-bat and smash everything to pieces. That way they will again have to fixthings that they didn't had to break in the first place.
I do understand the points that many of you share... the AFK entertainers and spammers. And I agree thatsomething must be done to stop them.But there are also many otherintelligent solutions to these problems. And again these ideas come from the community. You just have to read a few responsesto Thunderhearts "Macros are going away"-thread to find them.
Straker_Atrella
Thu Aug 05, 2004 3:09 am
#43
Jenden wrote:
Your logic is good for the most part, but it fails in one key point... We might as well have 3rd party applications right now. Its no different than the macro system really. So arguing that there will be more 3rd party macros doesn't mean anything if they might as well already be in the game. The only way you get anything out of the situation is if you take a chance and get rid of the macros. You know the problem isn't going away if you leave them in, you know there's a *chance* that it'll go away if you take them out.... so you take them out. I have yet to see an argument that shows where something is rendered worthless without recursive macros (besides the smuggler faction buying deal, but that needs to be fixed rather than patched over, and even without a fix you could just write a long macro and call it a couple times).
Message Edited by Jenden on 08-04-2004 11:03 PM
Jenden, that is exactly my point though. We may as well have 3rd party aps. The macro system is there for ANYBODY to use. You can use it, I can use it, Joe Powergamer can use it, Chris casual player can use it. It's there for anybody to use. There are no haves and have nots.
If you remove the macro system, it will take the tools out of everybodies hands, and put them into the hands of those who cheat.
The 2 main problems with AFK are Entertainers and Spambots.
Entertainers are easily fixed by simply adding a feature that makes attended buffs better.
Spambots are fixed by making it so chat can't be macroed, or if you go AFK, you can't talk.
Fix the problems, not the symptoms.
You, I and the developers need to accept that no matter what, there will be people who "play" this game afk. You may think that is stupid and wrong, however that doesn't change how those players act.
You don't "fix" the afk problem by moving the ability to afk into the hands of a select few (3rd party aps.) You fix the problem by making AFK less desirable.
Javac
Thu Aug 05, 2004 3:54 am
#44
Stryker you've made some excellent points here. Ihope that a dev reads orTK shows them it. I'm already worried about exactly how they implement it, since the only way that I can see it being prevented is only allowing one macro to run at a time. Removing /ui action and/or /macro will not work.
Jenden
Thu Aug 05, 2004 9:11 am
#45
You've said yourself that taking out the recursive macros will decrease the number of people who play AFK (only the cheaters will). Any decrease is better than nothing. The devs aren't looking to do a quickfix for entertainers, they're trying to get rid of this afk "playing", or at least, limit it as much as they can. Sure, there will always be people who use 3rd party programs, but it will be a lot less than those who will just use in the in-game macro system.
Batleh
Thu Aug 05, 2004 2:22 pm
#46
Personally I happen to fall into the "anti-macro" group. Yes, buffbots are bad for the real players they displace, yes, spam bots are annoying as heck, but the biggest issue that I see with macros is in the "grind" of the game. Macros enable "normal" players to achieve a level in the game that they would not otherwise reach, and it enables them to do so in a trivial amount of time. Being a ”Master" is meaningless now days. As someone posted earlier, you can be macroed to MDE in a matter of hours. Macros allow players to rapidly advance crafting, combat, medical and other skills at a horrifically exaggerated rate. A healthy game system has a bell curve of player levels, some new players, many mid-level players, and few maxed/master players, however SWG has few new, few mid, and many maxed. This forces the game to become extremely top heavy and you start running into problems with game balance such as too much money in the system, everyone having the "best" stuff (because most crafters who are actively selling wares are masters), crowding of the "elite" areas (lag on danth/dantooine anyone?), new content being extremely overpowered (ie, Vette and DWB), etc etc. SWG has totally lost the "mid game", in a large part due to macroing.
Yes, I know, lots of nifty, useful things go away when recursive macros stop working, and yes, the unscrupulous players (who are likely trying to exploit and cheat anyhow) will move to 3rd party programs, but you won't have your "average" player doing these things, and I think it will be a lot healthier for the game system as a whole. The real quest here isn't to stop the hard core exploiters and cheats. As long as they have control of a local copy of the game, they're going to try and find a way to do it. It's like the old saying "Locks keep the honest people out." The guys who really want to exploit or use 3rd party apps are going to do it. The best we can do is make it that much harder, or that much more 'illegal', to do these things in order to discourage the average player from following suit.
I also agree with you that macros are a great way to get around a lot of broken and poorly designed content, that they provide a wonderful and convent way to do things, but in my book they end up doing more harm to the game as a whole than good.
As to your worry that players using the 3rd party programs being undetectable and other things like that, believe me, they're detectable and actionable if you bother to look for them. My job IRL is to do exactly that kind of thing. If your "average" player doesn't commonly have access to tools like this, the behavior of the ones that are using them becomes aberrant and detectable. It's not always easy, and it's not always foolproof, but it can be done.
As usual, feel free to disagree with me :-)
Yes, I know, lots of nifty, useful things go away when recursive macros stop working, and yes, the unscrupulous players (who are likely trying to exploit and cheat anyhow) will move to 3rd party programs, but you won't have your "average" player doing these things, and I think it will be a lot healthier for the game system as a whole. The real quest here isn't to stop the hard core exploiters and cheats. As long as they have control of a local copy of the game, they're going to try and find a way to do it. It's like the old saying "Locks keep the honest people out." The guys who really want to exploit or use 3rd party apps are going to do it. The best we can do is make it that much harder, or that much more 'illegal', to do these things in order to discourage the average player from following suit.
I also agree with you that macros are a great way to get around a lot of broken and poorly designed content, that they provide a wonderful and convent way to do things, but in my book they end up doing more harm to the game as a whole than good.
As to your worry that players using the 3rd party programs being undetectable and other things like that, believe me, they're detectable and actionable if you bother to look for them. My job IRL is to do exactly that kind of thing. If your "average" player doesn't commonly have access to tools like this, the behavior of the ones that are using them becomes aberrant and detectable. It's not always easy, and it's not always foolproof, but it can be done.
As usual, feel free to disagree with me :-)
Straker_Atrella
Thu Aug 05, 2004 6:20 pm
#47
Jenden wrote:
You've said yourself that taking out the recursive macros will decrease the number of people who play AFK (only the cheaters will). Any decrease is better than nothing. The devs aren't looking to do a quickfix for entertainers, they're trying to get rid of this afk "playing", or at least, limit it as much as they can. Sure, there will always be people who use 3rd party programs, but it will be a lot less than those who will just use in the in-game macro system.
That's just the thing though Jenden, with publish 10, a huge portion of the afk will be gone anyway. The only people doing a profession will be the ones who want to do it.
So you think it is ok for there be be have's and have not's in the game? So it is fair for a couple of guilds to have buffbots in their cantinas or houses, while others don't? So lets say 2 Imperial guilds do it. They will always have mind buffs, so they do great in pvp. The rebels will do the same to catch up, then eventually, even honest players will feel left behind, and quit or feel pushedto cheat to catch up.
Fix the reasons people afk, to fix the problem.
Batleh,
I'm not sure what you do for a living Batleh, but finding afk people in the game is a lot harder then you think. The main reason is that afk is LEGAL. Macros are LEGAL. You need to be able to prove that at that given second that a macro was started, a real person was not there. SWG cannot legally look at your computer to see what is running.
If they are so easy to detect, when was the last time you heard of somebody getting banned for afk crafting?
What you seem to think is a weakness about SWG is also a strength. If a new person started today, after a week or 2's hard playing they could master. They would have the same level of power as somebody who played for a year. This also makes the game easier to balance for the devs.
Using a crafting macro CANNOT be done afk without a 3rd party ap. All the macro does is skip some screens saving you from Carpal Tunnel.
I can level a combat character far faster then any macro can. SureI have to be there, and it takes time, but you can fight a lot harder stuff then a macro can.
The ONLY profession that it is more efficient to afk macro level then not is the Entertainer ones. With the Jedi grind going away, how many people do you think will be doing Entertainer? If they are, they WANT to be entertainers. Before this the game was forcing fighters (why else would they want a Jedi,) to do a social profession. A combat oriented person being forced to spend 2 weeks in the cantina hitting flourishes is like a form of Hades.
So if Entertainer is the biggest one affected, and with publish 10 coming, why waste time with this change? If it's still a problem, fix the Entertainer system.
Jenden
Fri Aug 06, 2004 8:30 pm
#48
Ok, buffbots have to go one way or the other (or at least the attempt has to be made). You say remove spatial chat and the /join command from macros and we're all good, but getting rid of recursive macros and we're going to see 3rd party macros everywhere and its going to ruin the game. Why would this same thing not happen if you try it your way. Its just as easy to make a 3rd party macro that types in /join or /say blah blah blah as it is to make one that clicks the button every couple minutes... and they're a lot harder to prevent too. Offer up a good solution that couldn't be overcome by 3rd party macros and you might have an argument against removing the recursive macros, otherwise you're just arguing against yourself the whole way.
Straker_Atrella
Fri Aug 06, 2004 10:04 pm
#49
Jenden wrote:
Ok, buffbots have to go one way or the other (or at least the attempt has to be made). You say remove spatial chat and the /join command from macros and we're all good, but getting rid of recursive macros and we're going to see 3rd party macros everywhere and its going to ruin the game. Why would this same thing not happen if you try it your way. Its just as easy to make a 3rd party macro that types in /join or /say blah blah blah as it is to make one that clicks the button every couple minutes... and they're a lot harder to prevent too. Offer up a good solution that couldn't be overcome by 3rd party macros and you might have an argument against removing the recursive macros, otherwise you're just arguing against yourself the whole way.
First why this is better then removing recursive macros.
If you remove recursive macros, you lose the good things. Yes people will bypass it with 3rd party aps.
If you make the proposed changes, then the good recursive macro things stay in. Yes they could still be bypassed with 3rd party ap, but the good things stay in.
A good solution? I have offereda greatsolution a bunch of times.
When an Entertainer wants to do a mind buff, they hit the "Mind Buff" command. At that point, a box appears that says to type in these random 8 numbers. You type in those numbers, then for the next 15 minutes, your buffs last 3 hours and are 10% better.
No 3rd party application can type in those numbers. Plus now Doc buffs match Entertainer buffs, meaning people only need to go get buffed every 3 hours, not every 2.
At this point, people would WANT live Entertainer buffs, they would look for them. Yet if they were not around, they could still use a buff bot.
Heck after this change, you could then still nerf the join command to kill (most) bots, with Entertainer buffs lasting 3 hours, people would not mind nearly as much.
Jenden
Fri Aug 06, 2004 10:16 pm
#50
ok, that fixes buffbots... what about afk entertainers who aren't buffing, afk combatants, afk looters, afk surveyors, afk anything? recursive macros are a great idea, but they just leave too many loopholes. Players should never be able to "play" the game afk, that is bad for the health of the game. Someone new comes into a game and sees plenty of people but half of them AFK and they're going to think this game is crap, there's no people.
Straker_Atrella
Fri Aug 06, 2004 11:44 pm
#51
Jenden wrote:
ok, that fixes buffbots... what about afk entertainers who aren't buffing, afk combatants, afk looters, afk surveyors, afk anything? recursive macros are a great idea, but they just leave too many loopholes. Players should never be able to "play" the game afk, that is bad for the health of the game. Someone new comes into a game and sees plenty of people but half of them AFK and they're going to think this game is crap, there's no people.
Take out the commands that let people afk loot.
Who cares about the rest.
Seriously.
So what if somebody can master a combat profession in 1 day afk. I can master it in 3 days at the keyboard. They saved 2 days, yet at the end we are exactly the same power level. It's not like they end up stronger.
With the grind leaving people will be doing the professions that they want, so afk will be less popular anyway.
Making it so some people can't save a day or 2, yet nerfing the legitimate purposes is not worth it in my opinion.
Plus as we already demonstrated, people will find ways to afk. If somebody wants to spend their money to afk, let them, they don't get an edge to doing it.
neinnunb
Sat Aug 07, 2004 2:27 pm
#52
Straker_Atrella wrote:
I just don't understand why they feel to the need to go so extreme.
Unfortunately, sometimes we have to put up with annoyances to counter people who bend the rules. For example: Those of us who buy our games have to put up with the copy protection garbage. DAT tapes are more expensive to counter the loss in revenue the companies have from piracy. We pay high costs for auto insurancebecause other young drivers are careless. Etc. etc.
So in turn here in SWG, those that use recursive macros legitimately ATK are stricken from the benefits because of the people who exploit the system with bots and AFK activities. Sucks but thats how life goes...in and out of SWG.