Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Losing looped macros will hurt droid sales.
Jenden
Wed Aug 04, 2004 2:44 pm
#27
Ghost_Shadow wrote:
Jenden: I'm not saying that I want a"Instant-Master" button. I try to play the game and I try to have fun. As I mentioned before: I'm a DE since 8 month and am still not a master... if I wanted to get there in 3 days like the holo-grinders I would have made it for sure...
To quote NitewolfX: "People use the macro system to work around poor game designs"
If the Devs would concentratetheir efforts on the essential problems then we wouldn't have to discussabout something as irrelevant as macros.
See, there are so many game-breaking bugs in the whole game... there is a very large portion of players thatwants to do PvE or PvP... and I belive that almost everyone wants to take part in the GCW (whether fighter, entertaineror DE) but instead of fixing the real concerns of the majority they decide to temper with macros.
Ijust can't understand the logic behind there thinking. The whole community was in uproar about the delay of the Combat Revamp and the Devs start to make some small fixes to address these issues. But instead of fully fixing one problem they decide to change something that hasn't beenmentioned in over 3.000 posts. I don't mean the AFK-problem... I mean the macro-system. No single player asked: "Devs, would you please remove recursive macros because they are the biggest game-breaker"
But somehow the Devscame to the conclusion that removing these macros whould magically solve all their problems. The truth is: this will make it even worse. People used macros to work around poor (not to say bad) game design and now this great ability is taken away. Some players might come up with other solutions which, in turn, must not always be legal... but that is a whole other story.
In the end I want to have fun, I want to have challengesand I probably don't want to be a master in no-time. But with so many broken systems it's just plain impossible...
In all fairness, there have been people screaming for them to be removed for about a year now, its not a new topic. Also, they're just talking about turning off certain commands in macros, thats a simple code switch, a programmer never has to touch the project. That means its not spending any development time that something like the combat balance,that requires massive code redesign and changes.
TheRealTK421
Wed Aug 04, 2004 2:51 pm
#28
That's not true.
Ghost_Shadow wrote:
No single player asked: "Devs, would you please remove recursive macros because they are the biggest game-breaker"
NewJedi (the Musician Corr.) has been a proponent of removing recursive macros for quite some time. And he's just one voice calling for it.
It may be true that many combat and crafter players don't...but that's because macro use (recursive macros) helps them in a very positive way (too positively, to be honest). The issue there is that recursives hurt the game in so many other ways. It's not fun to admit that it might be the case...but they do.
Believe me, I have used my share of survey or Musician macros. I don't care to think how long it would have taken me to get to Master Musician without a recursive...but, then....I also know that I didn't really enjoy the experience of leveling that way either.
It's not an easy answer and I know for a fact that the removing recursives is something that's been on the list of possible changes for more than just the last few days. Much longer.
/bow
Respectfully,
Jenden
Wed Aug 04, 2004 3:38 pm
#29
There were two things that drove entertainers out. Afk entertainers (started around the time of the hologrind) and lack of /tips. Quite frankly the only way you can make any form of money as an entertainer is to belong to a real band and play gigs (which is pretty rare). Buffbots were just a further extension of the afk entertainers that caused so many to leave in the first place. Yes, there will be fewer people buffing to start out with, but since they've lost their competition (buffbots) and people have more or less become dependent on buffs (so they will be willing to pay a decent amount) you'll see more entertainers comming back. This is what I believe will happen, and I spend the vast majority of my time in game in the cantina, so I think I've got a pretty good idea of the situation.
As far as taking away the useful functions of recursive macros... I really don't think there are any. Yes, there may be things that make life a bit easier or cover up a flaw in the game, but we should be pushing to get these fixed, not to just keep patching around them. recursive macros for crafting should be gone (I really don't think you should be able to do crafting with a macro at all, but thats just me). The various things people use them for in combat, the spam, and the grinding really shouldn't be able to be macro'd like this.
Straker_Atrella
Wed Aug 04, 2004 3:40 pm
#30
Jenden wrote:
yes, as I've said before... it requires exactly 2 extra keypresses and would actually more than likely make your grind more efficient (since the pauses are not always exact due to lag).
Ghost... would you like it if they just gave you a command to gain skills instantly? Nobodies forcing you to grind, I made it up to master DE without grinding a single point of xp, so I know its possible. If you want to get there fast, it costs you your sanity. try actually playing the game... you'll find things much more entertaining then.
I know it may be a shock for you, but there was a time before people used macros recursively. There was even *gasp* a time before the practice option! People actually deleated items from their inventory manually after creating them. People have done it before, they'll do it again, this is the problem with recursive macros. People rely on them a lot more than they were designed to be.
Recursive macros are a crutch that have been screwing with this game for far too long, they need to go.
Message Edited by Jenden on 08-04-2004 01:37 PM
Actually, this may depend on how they do it. If they make it so that a macro can't access the toolbar, which is probably needed to stop looping, that means, it wont hit the crafting tool.
So you would need to do the following.
1. Hit tool to open it.
2. Hit macro key to jump past all the screens.
3. Select resources.
So I guess that is what you mean by 2 extra key presses. However as stupid as this may sound, 2 extra presses when your considering how many of the dang things you need to do is a lot.
So instead of my just moving my mouse a little, click click. I need to move it a lot or hit keyboard commands. It's already mind numbingly dull, don't make it worse.
I'm not griping really. It's just that MANY people may want to be crafters. Of those, a small few have the patience to do it without a macro at all. So basically your telling people, "Buy the game, make Weapons! Just be bored for 6 months before your stuff is any good!!"
Again you are pushing people to use 3rd party aps. More people will. Giving cheaters and edge. Which is again why the macro system was put in to prevent.
Straker_Atrella
Wed Aug 04, 2004 3:44 pm
#31
Jenden wrote:
There were two things that drove entertainers out. Afk entertainers (started around the time of the hologrind) and lack of /tips. Quite frankly the only way you can make any form of money as an entertainer is to belong to a real band and play gigs (which is pretty rare). Buffbots were just a further extension of the afk entertainers that caused so many to leave in the first place. Yes, there will be fewer people buffing to start out with, but since they've lost their competition (buffbots) and people have more or less become dependent on buffs (so they will be willing to pay a decent amount) you'll see more entertainers comming back. This is what I believe will happen, and I spend the vast majority of my time in game in the cantina, so I think I've got a pretty good idea of the situation.
As far as taking away the useful functions of recursive macros... I really don't think there are any. Yes, there may be things that make life a bit easier or cover up a flaw in the game, but we should be pushing to get these fixed, not to just keep patching around them. recursive macros for crafting should be gone (I really don't think you should be able to do crafting with a macro at all, but thats just me). The various things people use them for in combat, the spam, and the grinding really shouldn't be able to be macro'd like this.
I respectfully disagree about the lack of tips. As I said, I am a Musician / DE, if I want, I can make more money selling mind buffs then droids. I made 1 million in tips during a big pvp fight about a month ago, for about 2 hours work.
It may vary on Servers, Scylla is considered a "rich" server. So maybe things are different. Some people tip more then others, but I can sure as hell earn a living selling mind buffs, buff bots or not.
Jenden
Wed Aug 04, 2004 3:45 pm
#32
sure, you're preventing 3rd party apps by making them not necessary... its like wrecking your car so someone can't steel it. Anyway, given the placement of the mouse and keyboard (for those of us that are right handed at least, I guess lefties do get the short end here) hand positions are perfect for hitting those extra two keys, and it will end up making your grinding mor efficient to begin with. You might as well complain about having to select the resources... its more work to do that. You say very few crafters have the patience to grind without a macro... I remember more of them back before people had the whole macro thing figured out than there are now, so I don't think that point is valid.
Jenden
Wed Aug 04, 2004 3:47 pm
#33
I guess that does depend on servers then. On Tarquinas an entertainer (or at least musician, thats all I can speak for) is lucky to make 10k on a busy night, most people don't tip at all. The ones that ask for money up front just get laughed at and the person finds a buffbot (though most people will run straight for the buffbot anyway, people seem afraid of non-afk entertainers).
OckVofad
Wed Aug 04, 2004 3:49 pm
#34
I understand what you are saying Straker. We will be "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" if the ui action toolbar command is deleted.
If we are strictly talking about the crafting macros I dont see it as a huge inconvienence to do those two extra clicks.
Changing this will have just as many unintended consequences as hologrinding did.
I agree with you: Make it so you cannot place a /say, /shout, or /join command in a macro. Buffbot and spambot problem solved.
OckVofad
Wed Aug 04, 2004 3:52 pm
#35
As far as i'm concerned Entertainers SHOULD ask for their money up front like doctors.
Straker_Atrella
Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:07 pm
#36
Yea Oct, that my biggest gripe, you don't save time now by making a huge change, when you just need to fix it later.
Jenden, I understand what you are saying, your 100% right. That is why servers are different. 90% of our buffbots on Scylla are in private cantinas or houses, very few in public places. The public ones are in places like Dath Science Outpost cantina and such. So for example, if I do go to Coronet and sell mind buffs, I will actually get a lot of business. The big PVP places are even better, especially late at night. Doc buffs are easy to get, mind buffs are harder, yet essential for PVP.
It's a complex problem really. The hardcore Entertainers such as you Jenden, enjoy it because you htink it's fun, and want to socialize.
Yet to many combatents, all an Entertainer is to them is a tool for a mind buff and curing BF. They WANT an AFK buffbot, because they don't want to talk or interact. Heck, they probably want to go AFK while they are getting it. They have stuff they want to get back to, their Doc buffs are probably burning. They don't want to socialize.
Heck, to many people it is INCONCEIVABLE that somebody actually enjoys being an Entertainer. So if they see an ATK Entertainer, they just assume the person is checking their macro or something. Sounds silly, but each person is the center of their own game universe, it's hard to understand anothers.
Yet BOTH sides need to be happy. This change will make Entertainers happy, but will upset many combatents, by making buffs harder, as well as FORCING them to interact with people. As silly as that sounds to you, some people don't want interaction.
The answer is simple really, Lord Vader help me it is.
Make ATK buffs better then AFK ones. When "commence buff" is selected by the Entertainer, a window appears with 8 random numbers. Type in those numbers. For the next 10 minutes, your buffs are 10% better and last an extra hour. No 3rd party ap can type in those numbers or see them.
It is so simple. People seek live Entertainers for better buffs. The people in a hurry or at odd hours, or anti-social, use buffbots, with weaker buffs.
If your going to fix it, fix it right.
Jenden
Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:17 pm
#37
if buffbots were the only problem that would work, but the fact that you can do things in this game, anything, while afk, is a problem. It doesn't solve afk entertainers (which was the first problem that lead a lot of the entertainers to leave, it doesn't solve the problem of the afk combat looters, it doesn't solve the afk problem. The buffbots are just the most evident part of the problem, but they're not the only ones.
And as far as both sides meeting in the middle... if it weren't for the fact that this is an MMORPG, I might agree with you. If people don't want to be social, thats fine but there's a lot of better singleplayer games out there.
Message Edited by Jenden on 08-04-2004 04:19 PM
Straker_Atrella
Wed Aug 04, 2004 5:32 pm
#38
Yet the problem is that there is far more to a MMRPG then interacting. Many people like it because the world is huge, it gets updated and new things are added. You don't "win" it.
Saying that if people don't want interaction they should play single player games is just as bad as saying that if Entertainers want to socialize they should play Sims online.
What one person looks for and likes in a MMRPG may be vastly different from what another likes or wants, they have much to offer a wide variety of things.
What is so wrong with AFK? I agree that AFK things that hurt people are bad and should go, yet so what about the afk things that don't hurt people.
People need to lose the current mindset. As of publish 10, the only reason people will be doing a profession is because they WANT to do it. You wont have people doing it because they HAVE too.
Meaning more and more people will care about the profession, they will want to learn it.
People afk looting stuff is bad, remove the commands that let you do so.
AFK fighting is bad, yet be eliminating it, you make things harder for the disabled and normal players. While it may be offensive, what does it really hurt? So you level up your Fencer in 2 days, I leveled mine up manually in 2 weeks. The end result is we are equal. While you saved time, you didn't hurt me.
This is the WORST time to implement this change. As of publish 10, 90% of this problem will probably be gone. Why make such a huge change if it is not needed?
The real problem is that "some" of your hardcore powergamers will still afk, they just will use 3rd party aps to do it. Then people will gripe about that, spending more dev time. That is why the macro system was implemented to begin with. To give everybody equal footing. The macro system is smart, tune it, mess with it, yet don't make changes so big that there is a significant advantage to using a 3rd party aplication instead.
The current change is such a mistake.
TheRealTK421
Wed Aug 04, 2004 6:58 pm
#39
I want you all to know that this is a great thread. This is understandably a hot topic on the Corr boards right now and I do want to be able to bring DE concerns to light there on thie recursive change.
I've added a few of my thoughts there but I really want to be able to pass on concerns you have about how this will affect us...
/bow
Respectfully,
I've added a few of my thoughts there but I really want to be able to pass on concerns you have about how this will affect us...
/bow
Respectfully,