Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Can someone justify DE only droids?
You are thinking from a "balance" perspective rather than a game-play/logic perspective. Which, while it does seem to make sense, doesn't take away from the validity of the justifications.
Also, please don't forget the fact that I have already stated that I am against the idea of a DE only combat droid (for the reason you stated as well as several others), but that doesn't invalidate the justification for us receiving one.
Whether other crafting classes should receive some special perk or not is 100% irrelevant to this discussion. It's not up to us to make sure we are kept even with other classes or to ensure that other classes are working properly...all we need to concern ourselves with is our own class and making it the best it can possibly be.
So look at #2 and replace droids with weapons. Same arguement works. Or how about armor. Again, the same arguement applies and still makes sense.
#3 follows the same suit. Any crafter could pretty much twist those words to their benefit and that scares me. At what point would the line get drawn after DE gets a MDE droid and others get nothing using the same justifications, or would every class (crafting anyway) get something like this at master that only they could use? Potentially a VERY bad balance issue
JonasBlackmore wrote:
You are thinking from a "balance" perspective rather than a game-play/logic perspective.
Actually, a game-play perspective and a logic perspective can be two very different things. Many times real-world logic is cast aside out of gameplay necessity.
One SWG example is mining for steel. If this were to hold true to reality, there would have to be steel refinement plants to make steel. Fortunately, I don't think too many folks are complaining over this physical contradiction. 
SOE decided that it was in the best interests of gameplay to include it in the mining process instead of a separate refining process (probably way way too cumbersome, I'll bet).
Another example is the basic crafting kit, as I think you mentioned in another post. Sure, it takes no ability to set up a basic camp kit. But in the interests of gameply, SOE decided to give this ability its own skill box. I assume they have there reasons, mostly likely because this is a very scout-specfic activity.
You can't really apply justification #2 to armor. Armor is...armor. You put it on you receive the benefits. Knowing how it was made would not allow you to wear it in some special way to get extra protection out of it. Same with guns, albeit slightly different. Guns would fall in line with my farmer allusion (as do BE). When you craft a gun, it is purely mechanical, you don't have to program it a special way to get it to function properly, nor do you even need to know how to use it to create it. There are many gunsmiths in the world who couldn't hit the broadside of a barn, yet they can make an amazing gun.
In terms of relating it to "real world" concepts, think of it this way. In the real world could a computer program be completely created by a machine? No, even the best AI cannot create, from scratch, a complex computer program/application. In the real world can a suit of armor (or a gun) be completely created by a machine? Yes, they can be created without any human intervention at all. A computer can create a new design, and a robotic assembly line can create the actual item without requiring any external knowledge/abilities other than just making that item.
Droids aren't like "items" in that they require special programming and have to interact with the user, and thus the programming can be created to be completely different by the DE to work in a way that only they would understand.
oaktree68 wrote:
Actually, I'd say its extremely important to try to keep yourself even with other classes. Sure you guys could push for a DE/CH type of class, that makes its own droids, fights its own battles, heals its owns pets wounds....etc but would make you so unbalanced you'd never get anywhere with it. Or you have people like Wepps saying that BH's should automatically get novice medical skills (and thought of maybe getting first aid too) which are completely off the wall requests.
Relative balance compared to your peer classes is going to determine pretty much what you do and dont get, so its pretty important to keep that in mind when asking for things.
Look at it this way. If in the next patch, they make you guys ultra powerful somehow, do you think that would help or hurt your chances of getting anything new added to the class?
That would depend greatly upon how you determine what "even" is. Is "even" the ability to make useful items that other players will buy? Is "even" making items that decay and will need to be replaced? Is "even" the ability to be useful and use your items in combat? It's all based upon your perspective and how you feel about things. That's what causes the majority of arguments in this forum, different DE believe different ways about what the class should be/is and neither side is willing to bend either way.
I am, and always have been, in the camp that favors keeping us a purely crafting class. Does this mean I can't see the logic/reasons behind the desire to give us a MDE only droid? Nope, I can (obviously) see the reasoning behind it...but I still don't agree with it.
What I enjoy most about this discussion is the utter lack of contributions from the DE-only camp, it's pretty obvious they are full of "want" with very little "justification".
You pose some good questions Oak, it's a shame they aren't treated with respect by those who should be providing the answers.
Oh, and to those of you immature enough to demand that Oak "go back to the BE boards" and that he doesn't have any right asking these questions, just pretend I'm asking them instead. Been a card carrying MDE for many months, and I'd love a reasonable response to Oak's inquiries.
You mean like any of the posts I made?
Ockale_MDE wrote:
What I enjoy most about this discussion is the utter lack of contributions from the DE-only camp, it's pretty obvious they are full of "want" with very little "justification".
You pose some good questions Oak, it's a shame they aren't treated with respect by those who should be providing the answers.
Oh, and to those of you immature enough to demand that Oak "go back to the BE boards" and that he doesn't have any right asking these questions, just pretend I'm asking them instead. Been a card carrying MDE for many months, and I'd love a reasonable response to Oak's inquiries.
Part of the problem, I believe, is that it's entirely possible to justify having a DE-only combat droid if you start with the assumption that Droid Engineer wasintended to be a pet-using combat profession. Not BE, but CH.
A lot of people don't like this possibility,including me.
I honestly don't know if the Devs believe it or not, or what they were thinking when they designed CH in the first place.
Otherwise, it can't really be justified by itself, it can only pointed out that if handled in a certain way, it would be quite nice, and it might not do any damage to overall game balance.
The debate goes on from there.
Yeah, Jonas provided 3 justifications. The first one is pretty good and reasonable, it just opens another can of worms. It really doesnt have to do with game balance but begs the question, should people who choose artisan have any sort of combat presense if they dont use their remaining skill points on combat skills. I can't say for sure what the devs answer to this question is so I really dont know. So maybe you do, maybe you dont. Its really a whole different discussion.
#2 and #3 seem a little bit shady. They really dont have to do with game design, they more have to do with reasoning. It's tough to balance things that way. On the rifleman board, we as rifleman get the sniper title. You dont even want to know how many of them say we deserve something like the motto, "One shot, one kill." While that may be reasonable to suggest such an ability, that doesnt neccessarily mean that its justified. Read number 2 and 3 again Jonas, tell me what you think
Ockale: Dont worry, I dont sweat the small stuff. People either have an answer/try to come up with one and think reasonably or they try to start a flame war cause their case has no legs to stand on. Been there/done that before this question.
Chris: I pretty much agree with everything you say
I'll agree 100%, all three of my justifications stretched the bounds of reason a bit
My major point was just that, just as a computer engineer can get more use out of a computer than a non-engineer, it could be argued that a droid engineer should be able to get more use out of a droid than a non-engineer.
I dont think you stretched the bounds of reason at all really. Your arguements are pretty logical, I mean they are. They make sense, they're though out...I agree with them. The only problem is that reason doesnt always lead to justification. Its reasonable to suggest that a weaponsmith who makes every weapon in the game, is gonna know how it works and be able to yield it. Thats a reasonable statement. Though, its not justifiable when it comes to game balance that one class recieve a cert for every weapon in the game. But I think all your arguements are reasonable.
Justification #3 err.... I don't know what you're saying here. I can't see anything being justified. It's just a blanket statement that says "let us experiment on them". Which is a good thing in general (we've been wanting it all along) but it's just the ability to control the level of a droid, and thus what cert may be needed in order to command them.