Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: The DH, and my arguments for it- Dev attention appreciated
CH's were just put in line with how the rest of the game works. Now, you want to throw it out of balance yet again by giving cl25's to any elite profession?
This statment is so wrong - a majority of the Droid Engineer community wants droids to be Useful, in utility and combat but what we dont want is to be the new breed of CH or the creation of something similar. Simply because if you create a profession that is so "samey" to another you lose that professions uniqueness.
As one CH posted on our boards - he feels this idea is a why to totally destroy the CH profession.
The idea of level 25 droids running arround just insights images of the **edit** era of CH. droidsshould be no greater that CL 10 for everyone - with CL 15 max available to all elite professions at master level only. Creating a progressive system (such as a new profession) leads to so much "min-maxing" its unreal.
The problem seems to be in the vision of what DE is supposed to be. I've come to see it as a profession that produces a product, same as weaponsmith, armorsmith, and bio engineers. I believe this is how the dev's see it as well, and the new profession suggestion reflects this.
In the past, i believed that the crafting/combat hybrid DEprofession was the solution i was looking for. There are however, noother professions who can create a product themselves,put the product into use themselves, and then make thesame item to be sold for a proffit.No, not even CH. CH is a self sufficient profession, and thats a good thing because it is alsoa poor one unless you intend to run endless missions. There is no market for anything that a CH tames, with the possible exception of mounts. The mount market has fallen off the shelf with the inclusion of vehicles, so thats no longer an issue. The only profession that comes close to being able toproduce, use, and sellare armorsmiths. But in order to get real use out of that great high resist composite they just made, they need to enter combat. Who's going to fight something with only armorsmith skills? Of course, they'll be picking up some other profession to go with AS.
Now, heres where the visions of DE becomes muddled and unclear to me. I'm pretty sure all of you want to make the best droids possible. You want to become useful and an option for all professions. I won't say needed here, as everyone should be able to survive through life without a droid or a creature if thats their choice.Ok, well if DH is relased, you will serve all parts of this community with your products. The non combat people will buy whatever utility droids you can make that will make their life simpler. Many non-dh combat people people will buy you cl10 combat droids, provided they are at least as good a option as the ch and bio eng pets of that level. With repairing being fixed, i think you'll find many more probots selling to people who need something totake afew hitsfor them. As of now, CH pets are more desirable only because of the lack of repair for droids.
You also will have the option to serve a different part of the community then you currently are able if better, stronger combat droids become a reality. This is thepart of the community that enjoys having pets or minions, or whatever you wish to call them, be an integral part of their combat strategy. With the addition ofhigher end combat droids, you could compete in the market for high cl combat. This is a good thing for you and your bank accounts.
I thinkmany of you want the higher end combat droids to be a reality. By higher end, I don't mean cl25. That would do you well on starter planets, possibly a bit further with good resists. However, i speak of the possibility of cl50+ droids. Being able to produce such droids would raise the overall visibility and respect level for the DE profession to an all time high amongst alltypes of players.
The problem is, who gets the new droids. Should it be DE only?Because of themake,use,and sell critera itouched on above,I don't think this would be for the best. I could see DE'sat master level being able tocall acl25 or so. That seems a fair compromise.Should we use a cert system which would allow playerstoprogress in their profession, while spending extra skill points for droid certs? Well, we could i guess. I don't much like the idea. I'd rather see combatdroids recieve the respect they deserve by adding an entirely new profession dedicatedto the operation and maintainence of these droids. It would make for far less balancing (a cert system would be something of a nightmare to properly balance out, as not all professions are created equal), and allow the inclusion of things like in-profession buffs for droids, and a higher amount of room to add more in the coming months.
This is where any cert system breaks down, in my opinion. It is very short term in outlook. Give combat droid users their own profession, and you allow for more possibilities.Give them to every player via certs, and you limit yourselves, as i said before, to no good purpose.
Pluto, i understand the sentiments you expressed. However, i'd caution you trynot to feel that way. The DE community is a frustrated one. They feel like they've never been listened to in their history, and the whole DH proposal was sprung upon them so sudenly. The image i get ofsome members in thecommunityis one of theperson who feels he's been lied too and not listened to so many times, that when a honest stranger knocks on the front door, the first reaction is distrust and anger. As a result, i take everything with a grain of salt. De isn't the only profession in need of serious work, but it'sprobably the longest suffering one. I salute every DE who has been a DE for all these months. I couldn't have done it. Ibecame frustrated after i took my first "combat droid" out for a spin. I was so proud of it, until i realized it couldnt even kill a gnort. While i gave up and played something more rewarding for me, other's stayed to fight for change, even though it meant months offairly agonizing gameplay.I believevindication for doingthat will come fairly soon now, even if they don't. There's just too much focus on droids now for it to be swept under the rug again.
DarkMist25 wrote:
The problem seems to be in the vision of what DE is supposed to be.
I completely agree. And often that vision is distracted by generalizations that nobody needs, i.e. "pure" crafter vs. "pure" combat vs. "hybrid". At first glance it is definitive because of our prerequisite skills, but I thinkone could easily argue that it isn't as black and white as all that.
I've come to see it as a profession that produces a product, same as weaponsmith, armorsmith, and bio engineers. I believe this is how the dev's see it as well, and the new profession suggestion reflects this.
These three are very diverse and different professions. Weaponsmiths are currently the most prolific because they are able to supply the broadest cross-section of the playerbase. The main difference between the sentiments most have and the reality is: To use something a weaponsmith creates, you don't choose one single profession to play, you choose whatever combat role you like. Riflemen, Swordsmen, Bounty Hunters, they all benefit equally from the supply of the weaponsmith. There is no "weapon handler" profession. See what I am getting at?
There are no certifications at all for armor. If you are not a Wookiee, you can wear some. That is another huge cross-section of the playerbase. Why are these two professions different? It isn't just because the product is different, is it?Droids are different from pets, and that isone of the thingswe are really trying to get across.
Bio-Engineers have the worst life, because right now thier market is severely limited. They "nerfed" the CH in order to make the BE more viable. To this day I would still consider it an unfortunate profession.
In the past, i believed that the crafting/combat hybrid DEprofession was the solution i was looking for. There are however, noother professions who can create a product themselves,put the product into use themselves, and then make thesame item to be sold for a proffit.No, not even CH. CH is a self sufficient profession, and thats a good thing because it is alsoa poor one unless you intend to run endless missions. There is no market for anything that a CH tames, with the possible exception of mounts. The mount market has fallen off the shelf with the inclusion of vehicles, so thats no longer an issue. The only profession that comes close to being able toproduce, use, and sellare armorsmiths. But in order to get real use out of that great high resist composite they just made, they need to enter combat. Who's going to fight something with only armorsmith skills? Of course, they'll be picking up some other profession to go with AS.
But what about Tailor or Chef? What about medics and doctors? What about smugglers with spice? What about Master Artisans? I make and use my own products all the time, and sometimes prefer to do only that. I don't make droid batteries for sale, I make them because I need a steady and endless supply. I make my own vehicles, and for friends, but I don't run a vehicle business. Although I could sell them. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you.
And I think it might also be a bit ofa misconception that someone must choose to enter combat. Sometimes combat enters whether you like it or not. Surveying and keeping up harvesters is quite the ordeal if you don't have any combat skills. If I could wear armor, even if I wasn't going out for combat, I would.
Now, heres where the visions of DE becomes muddled and unclear to me. I'm pretty sure all of you want to make the best droids possible. You want to become useful and an option for all professions. I won't say needed here, as everyone should be able to survive through life without a droid or a creature if thats their choice.Ok, well if DH is relased, you will serve all parts of this community with your products. The non combat people will buy whatever utility droids you can make that will make their life simpler. Many non-dh combat people people will buy you cl10 combat droids, provided they are at least as good a option as the ch and bio eng pets of that level. With repairing being fixed, i think you'll find many more probots selling to people who need something totake afew hitsfor them. As of now, CH pets are more desirable only because of the lack of repair for droids.
This is again a forecast that I can't see. There are quite a few events that would have to happen between now and then for what you are saying to be true. We should be able to do those things right now.But none of those things you list above are dependant on a DH profession.
You also will have the option to serve a different part of the community then you currently are able if better, stronger combat droids become a reality. This is thepart of the community that enjoys having pets or minions, or whatever you wish to call them, be an integral part of their combat strategy. With the addition ofhigher end combat droids, you could compete in the market for high cl combat. This is a good thing for you and your bank accounts.
Meh.IfI had something besides a medical or crafting droid to sell, the same would be true (except for the high CL combat part). If I had a simple module that increased the ability for a sniper to aim, that would dramatically aid the sniper and let him use that droid as an integral part of his combat strategy. I truly believe there are more creative ways of making droids benefit even combat types than having the mechanical version of a meat shield. Not that I wouldn't like high level combat droids, but not above everything else that they could offer first.
I thinkmany of you want the higher end combat droids to be a reality. By higher end, I don't mean cl25. That would do you well on starter planets, possibly a bit further with good resists. However, i speak of the possibility of cl50+ droids. Being able to produce such droids would raise the overall visibility and respect level for the DE profession to an all time high amongst alltypes of players.
Would it? I don't know. I am not sure it wouldaffect anyone unless they were on one side or the other of the combat droids. People wouldnot see the DE with a really cool droid out. It would be the same old R3 we have had since time immemorial. They would really respect that DH, though. Until people started whining about how they need nerf. Which would probably only translate to it being harder for the DE to build those droids. And I suspect that a sizablepopulation would resent the droids and thier power.
The problem is, who gets the new droids. Should it be DE only?Because of themake,use,and sell critera itouched on above,I don't think this would be for the best. I could see DE'sat master level being able tocall acl25 or so. That seems a fair compromise.
Master DE's having CL 25 isn't going to break the game, that is for certain. And yes, I think each profession should get their own little something that nobody else gets. That includes Weaponsmith and Armorsmith.
Should we use a cert system which would allow playerstoprogress in their profession, while spending extra skill points for droid certs? Well, we could i guess. I don't much like the idea.
But it isn't an all or nothing proposal, which is what I do like about it. I think it will put more droids on the streets, and make them more visible. And closer to the supply and demand of weapons or armor.
I'd rather see combatdroids recieve the respect they deserve by adding an entirely new profession dedicatedto the operation and maintainence of these droids. It would make for far less balancing (a cert system would be something of a nightmare to properly balance out, as not all professions are created equal), and allow the inclusion of things like in-profession buffs for droids, and a higher amount of room to add more in the coming months.
I still don't think it is enough. DE should have seniority over any new professions. I see your point, but we shouldn't have to sacrifice our fantasy vision too much for our game mechanics. It's notthat it isn't allowed for everyone to have a droid. The problem is that they haven't found a creative and fun way to add it in so it won't ruin what they have already built.
This is where any cert system breaks down, in my opinion. It is very short term in outlook. Give combat droid users their own profession, and you allow for more possibilities.Give them to every player via certs, and you limit yourselves, as i said before, to no good purpose.
The problem is that they now are trying to retrofit something that should have been designed more thouroughly in the first place. You are right. Based on the current rules and mechanics, the DH is how it logically works. But that doesn't prevent it from being a poorly designed and poorly implemented thing to do at this point in the game. It is like suddenly creating the "Food Handler" profession to fix the chefs. So they can suddenly make really good food and it not unbalance the game. We are DE's. This is the DE forum. We are angry.
One thing that I was thinking about combat droids vs the Animal pets of CH'ers is this. How many Animals do you know that you can mount a laser, crafting station or armor plates to them?
We currently can not experiment to any degree to shift any HAM stat on our droids. They are removing Armor from our Probots, because it is unbalancing. They state that a level ten droid should only have around 800 HAM, when animal pets of level ten and below have 2K+ HAM.
The only thing that SOE is trying to do is quiet its critics who claim that this is pet wars and not star wars. So to make the game more "star warsie" they came up with combat droids.
What DE's are up in arms about the DH/DC/D? class is that yes it will make them exacatly just like a Bio-Engineer. The only character to use Combat droids over level 10 will be the DH class. So if Combat droids are CL11 or higher, if you don't have this DH class forget it you can't use it. The only thing this will do is make people give up thier character points and spend them there.
To those who claim that others can use level 10 pets, wooptea do. SOE has come up withClass balancing that they say is how things have to go. But they also state that they are reworking everything to make this work.Fine if you are reworking everything, then shelve it and wait till you get the bugs out of the base system before installing more content.
The point of this information is not that SOE just wants to keep adding more professions to this game, it's that they need to have the professions that they already have work. Droid Engineers asked to have our profession fixed not make us slaves to another profession. We already rely on Armorsmiths to make armor segments for droid armor, Architechs for power cores for powerdroids, and Master artisans to make every single droid above blueprints 1.
In turn the only thing that we can provide are droid storage compartments to Architechs for crafting stations, medics to have mobile healing stations and any crafter who wants a mobile crafting station and the rare bounty hunter who wants investigation.
But why go all the way why not give DE one combat droid? How many pets does a CH get, assuming DC will get the same number of droids allowing 1 does not cause any problems. Same should go for BE as well.
Most DEs need some assistance to clear harvesters (If probots could do the job I wouldnt even be thinking this) and advertise their wares allowingus to pull out a top quality battledroid solves both these issues. Think of the ohhs and ahhs as one sits in the shutleport wth his beasty Battledroid for sale.
I have stated this time and again and after reading the last few posts must also reiterate another point I made earlier why not fix what we have before adding more issues. I agree totally with this line of thought!!
Also not to move to another subject but you are quite wrong when you say weaponsmiths cant use what they make just because your not certified doesnt mean you cant use a weapon. I often found myself using weps I was not certified for just to obtain some measure of defense in the rougher areas. The certification only applies to the dmg not the speed hence faster will equal more dmg in the long run. Ask any brawler about his vibroknucklers that he isnt certified to use.
well rant or flame me if u like but i got my own opinion.
frist off i dont care anymore much about balance as long boxing tka jerks can kill tanks like at st with their fists. period
2nd CH is a profession who has to learn how to handle a living dangerous animal, so it makes sense that not everybody can contol that pets.
but imo a droid is totally different, its a machine with programmed commands and so with anybody should be able to open the mouth and simply say stay or attack. easy as that.
but if u want to limit lvl, then a DE should for sure be able to use his own machines, yes even call more then one at a time. here is why i think its not unbalancing. a droid eng has to spend alot skill points into DE and mostly into artisan also. means we got not much left to spend.
that means we will never even with good battle droids compete with pure combat templates which own anyways everybody. so i see no problem with inbalance.
and for non droid engineers their should be a cert system, which allows ppl to control specific lvls.
that point can be used for balance, for example place some CL usage into master boxes, like prolly (just example) 10 into a rifleman master and like 20 into a architect master. why different? cause of the glory of balance. a rifleman master is strong already and a huge droid would add unbalance but to give for example a crafter master or entertainer soething to defend themself isnt hurting the balance but would make them happy and able to escape in the wilderness while tey on arvester run.
i for example got only crafting skills and some merchant. leaves me with 1 skill left and i can wield a CDEF without any specials. so i ask how could the ability to use a bigger combat droid hurt here any combat balance? i still cant solo lairs with pure pet support. i couldnt heal myself and i cant shoot more then prolly 60 dmg to npc, IF i hit them at all.
doesnt that sound logical?
but my biggest concerns are, the droids itself. i wish to see more DE content, like functional droids and module lvls limited to specific droid models. its sick that a mouse can be as good medic bot then a surgical etc.
better module then u need a better droid, like it is with r5, r4, r2 that they eat different amount of modules (thats a good thing)
i wish that colorisation gets a use aka stays MUCH longer or even permanent (why not? u dont paint your car in RL every 2 days either) it brings nicer atmosphere into all.
CH is fine as it is and i like them and the pets, but i wish to see more droids out then animals as pets, since its just more star wars 
not for combat totally, but inside cities give droid a function beside craft station, storage slave and med bot. its just not enough functionality.
and with all what i said made, then you can add a DH profession, person who isnt DE and hate crafting, but wish to use droids instead of animal pets. that profession gets prolly aditional droids out and special moves which a DE dfont get, then u got your balance also again and all would be fine.
but i must say i was DE in beta and it is still not really worth to be DE, but i cant help myself i like droids and they add star wars feeling alot, the grafic skins are very nice, but thats it so far.
i just dont give up because i got still faith, i hope the reward will come some day to stayed patience.
(oh hehe prolly DEs should get a FFS free for the patience (isnt that a jedis reat requirement?) we showed lol)
any thoughts welcome
I think the berserk+knucks thing is is a unique situation in swg. The vibroknucks advantage is, i believe the one and only area wherea non-certed weapon is actually useful to use. I've used this tactic myself while gaining unarmed xp for commando, and it works great. I'm not sure this applies to other weapon types, i can't say i've really experimented with this. Not to change the subject of course.