Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: The DH, and my arguments for it- Dev attention appreciated
I was in no way making accusations about all DE, not all of any profession feel the same way. I feel that manyjumped without thinking based on a purely emotional response. I was trying to find a reason for that strong emotional response, and thats the only resonable thing that i could think of at this time.
I would like droids for all as well. I'm glad we agree there. Thats why i'm in support of DH. Everyone gets the use of utility droids. Everyone gets the use of cl10 combatdroids. And if you want the use of higher end combat droids, you take DH. No one is excluded from this, besides those who choose not to spend points on it. For those professions who choose not to take DH because of point constraints, honestly, thats their choice to make.
Now, instead of injecting more emotion into an issue, tell me why DH will not work?
DarkMist25 wrote:
I was in no way making accusations about all DE, not all of any profession feel the same way. I feel that manyjumped without thinking based on a purely emotional response. I was trying to find a reason for that strong emotional response, and thats the only resonable thing that i could think of at this time.
I would like droids for all as well. I'm glad we agree there. Thats why i'm in support of DH. Everyone gets the use of utility droids. Everyone gets the use of cl10 combatdroids. And if you want the use of higher end combat droids, you take DH. No one is excluded from this, besides those who choose not to spend points on it. For those professions who choose not to take DH because of point constraints, honestly, thats their choice to make.
Now, instead of injecting more emotion into an issue, tell me why DH will not work?
The answer is simple.
People had an emotional response because it was sprung upon us and we were told this is what we asked for.
That was not true.
The conclusion that we didn't want a DH profession was made MONTHS ago, that was not a snap decision nor "emotional".
When statements are attributed to a person or group that did not make them, that are in fact the OPPOSITE of what you actually said, people tend to be a bit upset.
It is not that a DH profession "wouldn't work", it's that it is not time for it and that we were led to believe that our class was getting finished as it had been promised since beta. And many of us just simply don't want to see CL70 droids right now - people that want CL70 pets already are CH. An asthetic alternative to CH is not a fix for the DE profession.
People, including, in an ironic twist, our "correspondent" have proposed many systems that would involve everyone yet still preserve "balance" - and the only reason we get that they aren't being used is because "DH is easier". Well, we'd rather wait a bit longer than get a half-baked, half-empty shell of a profession that won't be fleshed out until the Space Expansion. The SE is when a DH class should be added - but right now,as was famously said a few days ago by a poster who's nameis escaping me, "I challenge you to create four skill trees worth of content based on buying droids and spamming the letter'a'""
Finally, you sense emotion because many people do not realize the dedication it takes to be a DE, and for those of us who have been DE's since launch it's been quite a trip. Grinding to Master DE is the easy part. Try using 8-30+ Master Artisan Components, anywhere from 5-16 DE components/modules,maintaining rare metals like Ditanium and Neutronium on a constant basis, the endless runs of factory parts to make a product that is undocumented anywhere and that most customers need extensive tutorials in using, while discovering/apologizing for constant bugs, and responding to random tells from non-customers asking, "Hey I bought this Protocol droid from someone and I can't name it - FIX IT"...I could go on and on.
We wouldn't do it if we didn't love it, but love isn't always enough when you are getting slapped around and told that we wanted to be treated this way.
So please, support the DH cause in the offical thread that TH has started in the Development forum, and don't come to the DE forum trying to bait people and incite them by telling them your half-baked psycho-analysis.
Audio
GnomeAd wrote:
Ask the BEs how many pets they sell to CHs vs the number of pets CHs tame. This is the fate of the new DH profession. After the newness wears off, it'll be the biggest joke in the game.
Once again, the laziness of the developers has forced mediocre content on the players.
/bow
Respectfully,
DarkMist25 wrote:
Now, instead of injecting more emotion into an issue, tell me why DH will not work?
I for one am sick and tired of this issue and the schism it has brought to the DE community.
this having been said, I've supported both sides of this argument at different times, both the idea of a seperate droid handling class in the past and more recently, disagreeing with it in no uncertain terms.
Unfortunately, I feel the time for meaningful discussion on this subject is done. The plan for a seperate class has been put forward in such a way that it is inevitable. My own feelings are that it is not as creative a solution as could have been distilled from a game balance and community input perspective.
It is my belief that a droid handler class is coming. period. We can't stop it.With this in mind, I exhort the powers that be to make sure for all those affected, and who wish it, that the skill requirements NOT put mastery of this new class beyond the grasp of all the DE's who have master artisan and master DE.
Put bluntly. Master Artisan/Master Droid Engineer/Master Droid (handler,controller, master, whatever) should be a doable option. I wish I could say that I trust the powers that be to at least make such a set of career choices possible, but I can see them making such a thing an impossibility.
DarkMist25 wrote:
Things are looking up for DE's, in my opinion.
Things are not looking up for DE's. Things are looking up for DH's, or DC's, or whatever brand new class you want to call it. The additional development time spent on this new class will effectively put us as even lower-class citizens than we already are. Honestly, I would rather them spend development time on the Chef profession than on DH. This is not based on emotion, this is based on precedent. Your "grand CH nerf" was basically a lot of time and care on the part of the developers for a class that had the lion's share.
I've followed the DE forums for a fairly long time, and i have nothing but respect for all of you who trudged through the dark months of little contact and no improvments to DE.
You say you have respect for us, but then you come in here with your "rationale" and your "justifications" for why our opinions, or emotions even, have no bearing on the issues. For example: We champion a list of issues with our profession since before the game was on a store shelf anywhere in the world. We say repeatedly that this list(see Centralized Droid Issues stickied at the top)needs addressed before anything else happens. Name one thing that DH does to that list that doesn't pertain directly to DH.
All i wish is to hear solid reasons as to why DH (yeah..i very much prefer Droid Commander as well..) shouldn't be implemented. All i saw was nearly wall to wall DH bashing, and i sought to try to and figure out why. You already have my theory. Thanks to everyone in advance for their consideration.
There have been solid reasons listed already, and I will run them down too.
- Lack of content for new profession = development time spentadding content to another class instead of DE. I hopefully don't have to explain that this is relevant outside the boundaries of "pet hate" or "emotion".
- It trivializes the Creature Handler's skill set. There are immersive reasons why there is an entire tree devoted to taming wild creatures and making them go against their natural instincts. No such immersive reasons to have Droid Handlers. Itbecomes just a prerequisite. Extra care, time, and energy might solve this, but see above.
- The community was against the idea, other ideas were presented, and we were largely ignored. Even if we disagree with you, like I am doing here, I bother to tell you why. We honestly believe that this was not the best route to take, it was the easiest route to take. The one with the least amount of thought put into it. If you want to show proof to the contrary (that "droid invasion" post isn't it), then be my guest.
- Is CH going to equal DH? How is that going to be "balanced"? Require that CH buy everything solely from BE's? Make it so that DH's "tame" droids in the wild? Whatever. See point #1.
- Emotional investment is directly related to immersion. You cannot possibly remove emotion or immersion from the game and focus completely on game mechanics. Otherwise, you could slap any name you wanted on a box, call it MMORGP v.3.5, and sell gangbusters. There are things to consider that are less tangible than numbers and equations. This is one of those things. The justification for this new profession is ONLY based on "game rules and mechanics".
- This is a Star Wars game. You said, "I believe that many people become extremely upset tono goodpurpose whenever pets, or CH's are mentioned. It is these individuals who inherently dislike the DH proposal, and their purist starwarsian opinion is one i tend to disregard and disagree with most vehemently.". Now maybe I am taking this out of context, but how is a "Starwarsian opinion" not relevant to a discussion about a Star Wars game? Not that I use the argument against CH's. No, I think the CH was probably a legitimate profession in the Star Wars Universe, like zookeepers. Or clowns. Or mimes.I do, however, use the argument against the DH.
I am a bit tired, so my responses aren't as eloquent as I would like. Read AudioOrgana's posts to get some of my exact sentiments. But lets get to the heart of the real reason DE's don't like DH:
You say, "Everyone gets the use of utility droids. Everyone gets the use of cl10 combatdroids." You apparently get a great deal of benefit from your droid. Which one do you currently own? What modules does it have? Where do you get the crates of batteries it takes to run it? I assume you get it colored regularly to keep it from being a random color when called? Were you able to name your droid? Did you haggle over the price much when you bought it?
Go ahead. Tell us about your current droid and how it can't get any better than it already is.
Nowhere at any point did i say that they should leave DE alone and concentrate on making DH a great profession to play.While working on DH, as part of the droid invasion, they could be, and probably are working on a revamp to the DE profession. Of course the droids arent perfect right now. I own several probots on each of my characters, as well asa crafting droid for myup and coming armorsmith.And no of course they aren't all of what i would hope for in a droid. But i feel that they will be improved upon in the upcoming months.
As for why i came to you, the DE community with this argument, perhaps i should explain that. I very seriously wanted to know what all of you thought about the issue, when a decentlyclear and concise argument was put forward. I wanted to know directly from you what you thought. I'm not trolling to get a rise out of you, i'm not attempting to bait anyone to argue with me. I honestly believe everything that i've written, with the possibleexception of the pet hate thing. That was simply a guess, a theory backed up by my own ingame experience. If it doesnt apply to you, then by all means ignore it.
I still believe my argument for DH is valid. I can'tconceive ofa better way to implement a structured system of control over powerful droids then that. I do believe that people would pay to buy droids from youto have them fight alongside them. Most people don't pick up CH for the fun of the profession, even though there is much fun to be had in it. They pick up CH because they need a tank. And this will be even moreso true once the combat phase of the game restructuring removes all mod stackingbetween professions.So yes, i'm sure that even if the DH profession was all about cycling for a target and saying "a" repeatedly, it would have many, many takers. The challenge is to make it more then that.
It's my intention to become a DE regardless of what occurs in the next few months.Some of you may not welcome me to the proffesion, and thats fine. i'm not here to win a popularity contest with anyone. I came here to argue a point that i believe in.
Drashk wrote:
I've stated that I am in support of the Droid Handler (I prefer Commander myself......
As a correspondent I would hope that you put your personal preferences aside and listen to everybody and be impartial.
Drashk wrote:
That DCs will [not] 'Tame Wild Droids'. DC will be based off of purchasing droids from a DE and may include faction Droids as well.
So...the Droid Commander/Droid Handler/Droid Master (whatever you call it) will be able to control higher level combat droids. WHAT ELSE CAN THE DO???
TheOrb wrote:
Drashk wrote:
I've stated that I am in support of the Droid Handler (I prefer Commander myself......
As a correspondent I would hope that you put your personal preferences aside and listen to everybody and be impartial.
What's funny is that the trolls who keep ignoring the dozen or so alternatives to the supposed "system" and challenging us to prove how it would "work", I have yet to see a red name or Drashk tell us how DH would "work".
why do i keep hearing that the DE's want to be crafting only, yet they also want to be able to use the droids that they make? that contradicts each other. It makes sense that DE's would know how to use the droids they make. I am opposed to the DH profession idea for that reason, and also because i do not think you could make an entire profession of just DH skills.
please visit this thread.... i have been revising and planning out this system which i think would be the best for DE's and non-DE's if implimented. i think it has answered all of the questions that TH laid out as well.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=droid_engineer&message.id=57315
please let me know what you think of it by replying there... i think it has alot of potential and i willcontinue to mold the plan unless anyone can point out to me any major flaw in it.
thx
-duck
Truthfully I dont understand this loathing towards CH's either. DH/DM/DC will not be an exact clone of CH. First you will have weapon types; acid, heat, etc. This will almost certainly have ranges. In this instance Combat Droids are never gonna be Tanks in a group. Simply just added DPS (damage per second). When the Devs talk about everyone not having combat droids noone is hearing that if they give EVERYONE combat droids then the average ham ill go up on every mob. Then what you see is a stalemate, nothing gained whatsoever, except DE's make money. That is why the cert system wont work. There is already too much lag from mounts, vehicles and vendor tags on maps. Imagine each person with Droids. And certainly everyone will have them because everyone will have to. The powergamers themselves will raise the bar so high on cash that everyone must need them. This is the threat of balance.
CH's do get free pets. We dont get free resources. And if you have to master Artisan to get master DE, then your resources are free. You already use at minimum a 3cpu factor and it costs less than 1cpu to mine a resource. You cannot make a profit without covering the costs of material. So please dont tell me you spend more points 92=92. Our experience comes from direct combat in every instance. Not button pushing. If you tell me that gets old, i will tell you i didnt make you play the profession. Grinding combat exp gets old too. Every day the same missions the same mobs. The fault lies with SOE, dont blame the CH's because you hate us. I believe there are just as many CH's that love animals Star Warsy or in real life in our profession. Just as i believe in DE's loving bots. CH's have joined the game with the same expectations of DE's. We were lead to believe our pets could be better than those found in the wild. We too got scr errr scammed because if we want them we must go to a BE. And like wise if you want combat you must go to DH.
Man im sorry i dont mean to rant, rave or flame but its pathetic when the majority of the people SAID they wanted to remain true crafters, then change their mind its wrong. Indecision is a sign of immaturity. I came here to learn the profession myself, see if i could deal with the broken profession until the patch came and then hopefully decode to go DH myself. I am ashamed for the profession and im not even one of you yet.
So here is my new DE plan. You want to be combat then get all your experience in combat like we do. I suggest DE become a scavenging profession. Not even artisan at all with two tree. One tree would be Scavenge the other would be Recognise Use. The DE would then take combat missions on NPC's and loot them for CDEF, Data Disks and otehr meaningless garbage looted. Just like CH then they could start building probots at Novice and work their way up all through combat experience. Because if you want to be combat you must train in combat. Proper practice prevents poor performance. Remember those 5 P's. You must train like you fight. Hero i am a vet and i guarantee i want someone more fit beside me than some button jockey trained in the wrong profession. You want combat earn it. Accept this new prof and be proud you worked for it. When SOE breaks it blame them. Hating CH's because they have bio-pets doesnt change the fact your prof is borked in anyway. Just because you want Ferro-pets doesnt mean the game wont be outta balance. Like i posted earlier even with Drashk new proposal i can be DH/CH with points left over for novice medic. Make DH a full tree.