CUEmu - Thread Posts

Zocima

Wed Jan 28, 2004 10:22 pm

Wow... am I embarassed.

I haven't posted in this forum for a while now, and now
I remember why I stopped.

I've been playing since release and have been a DE for most of that
time. I still frequent these boards daily, and I used to think that
we were the best player group in the game.

Perhaps I was wrong.

I've been here through the long wait, the crappy patches, the delays,
the bad ideas, and the unfulfilled promises. At no point, did I believe
it was within my right to attack another player because he is not a DE.

DarkMist25 came in here with an unpopular opinion, and he was assaulted.
He did no flaming. No accusing. No insulting.
And as far as being accused of making "wild assumptions," I can't agree.

Now, a fellow DE stated:

"WE WANT EVERYONE TO HAVE DROIDS."

But, let's adjust that statement to more appropriately represent the
treatment of our visitor:

"WE WANT EVERYONE TO HAVE DROIDS THE WAY WE WANT THEM TO."

Like it or not, if everyone is to have droids, then everyone gets their say.

Instead of accusing this "outsider" of trying to lobby support in "our" forum,
why not make a calm intelligent rebuttal to their statements.
That's what was so great about this forum:
Heated yet respectful debate about a troubled profession we all love.

Here is a little fact: Both pro and con arguments exist for DH.

Otherwise, there wouldn't be a debate. Deal with it.

This post isn't about ending the DH debate.

It's about respect.

I hate the see the men and women I have suffered with in this profession being
represented (poorly) by a few crude braggarts.

My words for the "outsiders"?

I apologize for the conduct of my ill-mannered associates.
If you are here to foster good conversation to better SWG and the DE profession,
then your input is most welcome.

No opinion is wrong. Others can just be better supported.

~~Senor~~
MA, MDE, Carbineer

~~ Senor ~~
Ghetto-Fish Enterprises

MCarbineer, MFencer, Commando
CorSec Pilot

Enjoying the challenge and dynamic that the CU has brought.

Veers_Intrepid

Thu Jan 29, 2004 2:52 am

#54

darkmist i am glad u saw my post

but i was prolly not specific enough, sure a novice cant have the high end combat droid.

what i prolly didnt said exactly enough but what i meant is that a sort of CL certification should go inside the DE profession as well, so a master can have the good ones and a novice a CL10 one like all others. and if u master DE for dabbling then u spend points enough and earn it, beside that as stated a DH can have more out then a DE master so the balance is there and good imo

Veers - Master Architect / Master Artisan / Master Droid Eng. / Merchant from Dantooine (SWG Beta Tester)
Customer: what i can do with a droid? DE: hmm i dunno, but they are cute

ask a Dev

Pluto9Moon

Thu Jan 29, 2004 4:58 am

#55

Veers,

Fallacy: Spend a lot of points in Artisan.
Truth by Definition: MDE requires 92 Points to master (plus a lot of grinding without combat XP).
Conclusion: MDE's who want to control high level CL combat droids have 158 SP left over to become MDH.

Fallacy: DE's will not control droids.
Truth in Theory: BE's only use CL10 pets. Master weaponsmiths are only certed for beginner or CDEF weapons. DE will still control non-combat AND CL10 combat droids.
Conclusion: MDE will remain in balance with the other weapon producing classes.

Fallacy: Crafters need higher certs as non-combatants.
Truth in Theory: Non-combatants made the choice to not spend SP in Combat professions.
Conclusion: If non-combatants wish to be combatants they should train as combatants.

Fallacy: DH will "exactly mirror" CH.
Analogy of the Fallacy: Weapons classes mirror Melee Classes.
Truth of Analogy: Weapons classes fit different roles than Melee classes.
Conclusion: DH is not meant to tank but provide weapons type damages (acid, heat, etc) other than kinetic while a CH's pets may tank in PvE but are not so good at dispensing damage, just as rifleman do not do kinetic damage while TKA tanks.

Sign for Hutt Faction here: Hutt Faction

Not against broad changes, just profession specific ones (read as CH) that go against what we've been told in the past.
(I hired Trayson as a ghost writer for a good tagline)

SWhitestar

Thu Jan 29, 2004 5:35 am

#56

Pluto9Moon wrote:
Veers,

Fallacy: Spend a lot of points in Artisan.
Truth by Definition: MDE requires 92 Points to master (plus a lot of grinding without combat XP).
Conclusion: MDE's who want to control high level CL combat droids have 158 SP left over to become MDH.

Correct: although as a true crafter you generally want to make all the components you require to make the basic objects of your profession (Master Artisan + Master Droid Engineer = 140 points leaving 110 left over)

Fallacy: DE's will not control droids.
Truth in Theory: BE's only use CL10 pets. Master weaponsmiths are only certed for beginner or CDEF weapons. DE will still control non-combat AND CL10 combat droids.
Conclusion: MDE will remain in balance with the other weapon producing classes.

This statment is what really bugs me - Droids are commonplace within the SWG universe - like food, drink, etc. Combat droids however i would agree need to be restricted but this can be done without the creation of a new class - adding the basic combat droids (battle droids at say CL 11 or 12) to first level of all combat classes, adding advanced combat droids to master level of all combat classes (super battle droids and droidekas CL 15 max), and finally adding specific combat droids for the more solo orientated classes at master level (IG series to Bounty hunters for example)

Keed droids weak so they dont impose of the CH but make them more desirable than say spending 10 skillpoints in CH to get a tougher pet.

Fallacy: Crafters need higher certs as non-combatants.
Truth in Theory: Non-combatants made the choice to not spend SP in Combat professions.
Conclusion: If non-combatants wish to be combatants they should train as combatants.

Agreed. but if all droids are going to be are metallic creatures as far as combat goes then all i can see happening is a new elite profession popping up all over the place (/waves goodbye to poke'mon and says hi to the new digi'mon)

Fallacy: DH will "exactly mirror" CH.
Analogy of the Fallacy: Weapons classes mirror Melee Classes.
Truth of Analogy: Weapons classes fit different roles than Melee classes.
Conclusion: DH is not meant to tank but provide weapons type damages (acid, heat, etc) other than kinetic while a CH's pets may tank in PvE but are not so good at dispensing damage, just as rifleman do not do kinetic damage while TKA tanks.

Droids do not have to be CL 50 mostrosities to provide new damage types to the battle ( i like the damage types idea as a way to make droid pets unique to creatures btw) as ive said before strength in numbers is what really defines the difference between a droid and a creature in combat. this has strength in providing a unique market for combat droids being chosen by those who enjoy mass groups over solo or small groups.

I can see in the future a 20 man force with one or two Rancors engaging the krayt dragon while 20+ droids provide damage form a distance.

Sheridan Whitestar
W* Droid Workshop
Chimaera - European Server - MASTER DROID ENGINEER
"We seem to be made to suffer. It's our lot in life" - C3PO

Pluto9Moon

Thu Jan 29, 2004 6:35 am

#57

Kin there are three rational reasons you have expended your Skill Points in such a way:

1) Finacial independence (not forced)
2) Social independence (not forced)
3) Convenience (not forced)

Sign for Hutt Faction here: Hutt Faction

Not against broad changes, just profession specific ones (read as CH) that go against what we've been told in the past.
(I hired Trayson as a ghost writer for a good tagline)

DarkMist25

Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:49 pm

#58

Yes your right Veers, a typical DE with good combat droids will never ever rival a combat profession. But how about someonewho gets DE simply to use those good combat robots, doesnt master artisan as they don't care aboutmaking a business out of DE, and then buys or makes their own combat droids to use.Thats where the imbalance occurs, with the person who would use DE simply as a tool to gain access to controlling higher level droids. Do you really want your profession coming to that? If you placecombat robots of high cl within DE, that's exactly what will happen.Thats one reasonwhy the Droid Commander makes sense. It keeps people like that for the most part away from DE, and gives them their own profession to use for combat, while letting DE's keep doing what they do best.

The idea of needing higher level combat droids simply doesn't fly for me. Why do you need anything over cl10 or 20to take the aggro off you while you burst run away? The object isn't to kill whatever it was that attacked you, but simply to get away.

I'm for DE's being able to call many droids at once. I'd like you to be able to call at least 2 utilities and a combat droid if need be. I'd go as far as to allow DE's to use a cl20 or 25 droid at master level.

With the Droid Commander profession i wouldn't see any reason why you couldn't master DE and then master DC if you so chose. If DC branched off the engineering tree, then you'd likely have points to master Artisan as well.

While the DC is in development though, many of the DE problems you brought up should be looked at and fixed. I've never understood why they'vebeen problems for so long, but that's neither here nor there. Utility droids should be more useful, and everyone should be able to find some benefit for droids. My focus in this thread is mostly combat, but understand that my focus in game isn't purely that. I have characters ranging from crafting to pure combat.

Tka's killing things with their fists..well thats not really an example of balance or imbalance. To play any game, theres a certain suspension of disbelief that must occur. Thats just one of them. I'm not gonna sit here and rain on someone elses fun because it isn't realistic. It isn't realistic that you shoot someone once and they don't die, it isn't realistic that minerals constantly shift, and it's not realistic that i can take a character from a unskilled person to a master DE in just a couple days of grinding. Such is the way games work.

Balance, however is important to make that game fun for all of us. Realism and common sense often times have to take a backseat in any game to balance. You'll know this is true if you've ever designed a game, or even ran a pnp campagin for any length of time.

None of this, or anything i'm likely to write,should be considereda flame or a rant, it's written in a calm state of being with the inclusion of as much thought as i'm capable of putting into it.

There ya go, no flame, and no rants

Azahlun Nai'Shadrin--Artisan,DE,Swordsman--Ahazi

DarkMist25

Fri Jan 30, 2004 6:29 am

#59

After reading what TH just recently posted in the Droid Invasion threads, it seems to me that the majority of DE's are now getting what they wanted, direct fixes for their profession. This is a good thing, and my congratulations to every DE who fought for such. My hope for the implementation of theDroid Commander profession growsdimmer with the words TH wrote, but at the same time this dissapointment is offset some by the knowledge that nearly the entire community seemed to be against the idea. It would have been grossly unfair had an idea been pushed out thata majority did not support.

I eagerly await the new changes to droids, in whatever form they take. My support for the Droid Commander ideareamins unwavering though, and my dislike of the cert ideas i've seen remains strong. I think that, had it been implemented, the Droid Commander likely would have been the single most engaging profession that i could have imagined playing.Traveling up some swordsman or pistoleer tree and gaining acess to droids doesn't seem nearly as interesting or exciting to me as an entire profession dedicated to their use would. As such, my excitement for combat droids isn't what it was.

Regardless of how things go, my intent to become a DE once again remains intact. I have attained novice DE today, and am continuing the grind at a slow pace, to familiarize myself withevery nuance in theprofession once again. My hope is that experimentation will mean something soon, and that additional modules of all types will become available. I look forward to all the changes that appear to be soon be sweeping through DE soon.

Azahlun Nai'Shadrin--Artisan,DE,Swordsman--Ahazi

DarkMist25

Fri Jan 30, 2004 6:26 pm

#60

Is it more disrespecftful to DE's to just throw droid certs into many different professions, with droids becoming the built in tank for every profession? Or to show how important combat droids are to all that they would be willing to implement an entirely new class dedicated solely to their use?

I don'tsee a reason to beinsulted by the proposal of a class dedicated to a single product. The only other profession that has an entire class dedicated to their primary productare bio engineers, and i'm prettysure none of them feel insulted by that status. If your talking about being insulted that the idea was made to seem that the DE community supported this idea in TH's initial statements on the matter, then i can understand that more. But the profession should be considered on it's own merit, with as much rational thought and as little emotional interference as possible.

Azahlun Nai'Shadrin--Artisan,DE,Swordsman--Ahazi

DarkMist25

Fri Jan 30, 2004 6:43 pm

#61

Thank you TalonIronwolf, i appreciate the compliments. Middle ground soultions are usually the best to take before going to an extreme. I've looked and i just don't see one. Eve Drashk's proposal isn't so much a middleground, as it is a compliationof every system that's been devised.

I guess my basic problem is that fact that many in the community seek to rearrange how the game works to fit droids, when they need to be looking at it in the other way. Creating certs thateveryone canget while spending skill points is ok, and will work. But that causes every combat droid to become simply an "a" fest. Theres only so much you can put in a cert. An entire support system of skills and buffs and other things that would make droids interesting and fun to use just wouldn't be there. And i'm sure the cl's would be capped at a lower then desirable level.

Sure, DE's could potentially be given the certs themselves, and allowed to make and use all droids in existence. However, in doing so you've just destroyed a potential market for yourselves. And by making DE a popular combat profession, your attractive a very different crowd to become a DE. I wouldn't be surprised to see droids that normally sell on vendors become dumped on the bazaar at extremely low prices. It already happens with every profession to some degree anyway. But throw in combat effectiveness to that profession and watch it happen on a large scalewith droids.

In short, I havent found a compromise solution that takes into account the fact that droids need to be different then creatures, but must be as viable and easy to attain by the general populace as creatures are.If droids are capped at cl45, and the road to get them is hard, they will not be desirable. If you put them in a profession which include droids which are on par with creatures, and the skill points and experiencenecessary to get them aren't much different then CH, manypeople will flock to droids over creatures.

Azahlun Nai'Shadrin--Artisan,DE,Swordsman--Ahazi

TalonIronwolf

Sat Jan 31, 2004 1:02 am

#62

Darkmist,

While we dont agree on this subject I do want to say that your posts are so well thought out and so clear that they allow meto ponder the idea in a more complete manner.

I still feel that a decent middle ground can be reached without going totally in either direction

Thanks for your time and clarity

Ryde

Sat Jan 31, 2004 1:46 am

#63

Some say we DE are simply trying to become adherently wealthy, I beg to differ we current DE chose the profession for the joy of building what we assumed would be a viable profession.

Now with that being said.

Making a DE simply a “Wet Nurse” for supplying product to this purposed new “Class” is not only insulting, but just down right rude. The simplistic of this issue are so blinding its scary.

Everyone should be able to control droids, PERIOD.

If your worried about low level players being able to control high level droid (Can we say the CH mess?) Base the level of droid control on the skill tiers ANY class should be able to control droids.

If this insult of a new class to control droids becomes real, out of respect, and just plain “We Are Sorry” you should grant a full respeck for all DE’s to invest in a new crafting master. That’s right, a free respeck to any crafting master class.

I will not be a DC or DH’s personal product supplier, I became a Master DE to sell to anyone who desires a droid.

We DE have been neglected, nurfed when we thought we could not be nurfed any worse, now we have been Sucker Punched and kicked while down.

It’s just Rude!

Arkkyles Model 101 Outpost Coronet, Corellia -206 -5704
Master Artisan-
Master Weaponsmith-
Master Droid Engy-
Minor Archy 4/0/2/1-
Novice Merchant-
Novice Armor Crafter
-
-
-

SinjenRandall

Sat Jan 31, 2004 8:23 am

#64

DarkMist25 wrote:

I guess my basic problem is that fact that many in the community seek to rearrange how the game works to fit droids, when they need to be looking at it in the other way.

Well, this is the source of my frustration, personally. The game should have worked to fit droids since day one. It should have been a platform issue. Creatures were, and now everyone looks to creatures as the precedent. What we have with droids is a complete lack of implementation.

Creating certs thateveryone canget while spending skill points is ok, and will work. But that causes every combat droid to become simply an "a" fest. Theres only so much you can put in a cert. An entire support system of skills and buffs and other things that would make droids interesting and fun to use just wouldn't be there. And i'm sure the cl's would be capped at a lower then desirable level.

Yes, I agree somewhat. But there is only so much they can put into anything that they add brand-new. They haven't finished the original professions, so how can they finish a new one? Your dreams of an interesting and fun new profession would be diminished with the reality of that profession, i'd wager. And honestly, if they got the DH right the first time I would be a bit insulted. Remember, DE is still broken after all this time.

And I guess I don't see certs the same way. After all, if there were a Droid Handler class added, it would be nothing short of a series of certs with skills thrown in [probably haphazardly]. It all boils down to how they put certs in. I like something along the lines of a fifth optional skill line for each profession. Only instead of having what amounts to the meatshield paradigm, I would have each profession's droid linegiving particular skills that actually had something to do with that profession. An assistant to combat, if you will. (Or in the case of crafting or hybrid, that would still apply - specific skills tuned to droid use and droid modules) There is already an established methodology for limiting buffs, and that is basically interdependance. With a not-too-complex series of snap-ins and modules, this would fit quite nicely into the current game mechanics. You can have invaluable tools without having the vernacular "uber" tools.

In short, I havent found a compromise solution that takes into account the fact that droids need to be different then creatures, but must be as viable and easy to attain by the general populace as creatures are.If droids are capped at cl45, and the road to get them is hard, they will not be desirable. If you put them in a profession which include droids which are on par with creatures, and the skill points and experiencenecessary to get them aren't much different then CH, manypeople will flock to droids over creatures.

And the short of it here just becomes playstyle. It would be very desirable to me to spend 15 skillpoints and get a CL 25 combat droid rather than spend 92 points to get a CL 70. But that doesn't go for everyone. So the proposal I like scales somewhat linearly to how many skillpoints you want to spend. I would be happy spending my 15, and someone else would be happy spending their 92. They call that dabbling, I believe. Which is what they don't want. I suppose nobody can really be happy.

I still like certs, in the way that I described above. If droids are truly going to be different from creatures, then perhapswe should be thinking along the lines of "utility for combat". And yes, it is messy, and yes, it is complicated. But isn't anything that is worth doing?

Sinjen
Elder Ticklemonster - Unlocked Pre Publish 9
Master Pilot
THE Hero of Tatooine

DarkMist25

Sat Jan 31, 2004 7:00 pm

#65

I'm in agreement with you Sinjen about the implementation of droids in the game. There was so much that should have and could have been done to make droids a dynamic and exciting portion of the game. Unfortunately, that wasn't done. Now here we are, forced to adapt to the game as it is now, instead of lamenting over what it should have been. I've seen many proposals, but most would require a complete change to an entire profession, or to an entire skill tree within the profession. The devs are far less likely to accept a proposal that changes the game to favor droids, rather then the other way around.

I agree with you that the implementation of the new professionprobably would contain bugs, undesirable features, and so on. But thats ok. Droid Commander would become my fight to fix, and alot of others would be there with me. It would develop a community on it's own. I'd rather see it implemented, andthen slowly fixed over time, then never implemented for fear of how it would turn out. I'm willing to spend the next 6 months or year or however long it takes making sure that the profession would turn into something really special. I'd just rather see that new profession with certs and some skills thrown in then see certs in each profession that have no possiblilty of growth or change. To me, that's the worst fate combat droids could end up with, other then never being seen at all.

Yep, i agree that you can have good, useful tools without "uber" tools. But i havent seen a reason yet to not have these uber tools as well for those who want them. Why create a method of droid control that is built in with a limitation to CL when you don't have to? That's akin to a weapon smith telling his customers "sorry, i knowall you riflemanwant t-21's, but i've decided not to build them, as the mid levelrifles do just fine".

If you only want to use a cl20 or so, that's fine too. Simply pick up what would be Novice Droid Commander. If CH is any model, that would get you your cl20 droid. And an expenditure of 15 skill points for novice would meet your criteria. I envision Droid Commander branching off the engineering tree, so that points for DE's to get at least some Commander skills shouldnt be an issue. Note that these last figured were pulled out of the air in extrapolation from how CH currently works. None of us have seen the new profession yet, so it's only a guess as to how it would work.

Regardless, I very much support a system of experimented, modular droid creation. That would add so much moreto DE, and would make the final product for Droid Commander so much more interesting.

I've also seen some interesting "utility for combat" proporsals that i could get behind. But i think they could be implemented along with, not instead of, how the existing combat droids which are sitting in some dev's hard drive right now would probably work.

Azahlun Nai'Shadrin--Artisan,DE,Swordsman--Ahazi

Droid Engineer Archive

Thread: The DH, and my arguments for it- Dev attention appreciated