Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Droid Update!: The situation with the DE Hybrid proposal and CL10+ droids (04/02/04)
AudioOrgana
Fri Apr 02, 2004 5:11 pm
#40
DigitalOne wrote:
For those of us who put our life and energy into doing what we love dispite constant reminders of our inequity,
DE is where the collander of SWG has left me, now i realize theres nowhere to go from here, and nowhere i want to go either. Its not stubborness its exaustion. Seriously how far can a beaten mule go?
This is the end of the line for many...
AO
Sodan-droiddreamer
Fri Apr 02, 2004 5:18 pm
#42
First of all, I want to thank all the people that helped put the Hybrid DE plan together. I planted the seed but it was cultivated by others. I think it is admirable that the dabate was largley positive and focused. Many of those who lodged objections did so in a constuctive manner, or at least were able to agree to disagree.
I think the lesson learned, however, is that 40+ pages of discussion and voting do not even warrant a response or explaination from the Devs. They'll just trot out TK with the bad news. No explication of how the plan could be fixed, nothing. This silence in the face of constructive feedback from the community is an affront to the community.
Personally, this plan was my last-ditch hope to save the DE profession and make SWG resemble the Star Wars universe we love much. I tried. I poured my energy into it. Ultimately, the Devs rejected the idea and that's fine with me. hey, at leat we tried.
That said, my contribution to the Hybrid DE plan marks the end of my substantive contribution to the DE forum. I've been here with many of you for a long time and seen thousands of discussion threads, polls, and bugs go ignored. Case in point: the latest "gee, what are your top five issues thread". I'm with Kollos on that one. We already answered that question a thousand times over.
I'll close my comments with a nice metaphor: The DE Toolset. This little crap from the devs imagination is the ONLY new DE content added since game launch (sorry, optimists, bug fixes aren't new content). It can only be constructed using a Droid Repair Tool -- an item that is not only no longer craftiable in the game, but never worked to begin with. As if that wasn't bad enough, people are reporting that even with a non-existantDroid Repair Tool the DE Toolset cannot be crafted. To round off an make perfect the metphor, all you have to do is add to this the fact that the DE Toolset is bandoleer and cannot be worn with aback pack. Wearing a backpack is essential given the number of components, subcomponents and varied resources are needed for crafting. So there you have it: The DE Toolset, a mataphor for the Devs mishandling of the DE profession.
Anyway, I will be around, but I see no point further contributing ideas that will only be ignored by devs who think, literally, that they have bent over backwards for us. Sweet dreams and thanks for all the laughs.
Micco30
Fri Apr 02, 2004 6:32 pm
#43
TheRealTK421 wrote:
Fellow DEs,
There's going to be quite a bit for us to focus on in the coming days and weeks (Publish 8) as well as rebuilding a CL10+ droid proposal to replace the Hybrid.
Methinks i have heard this siren call before
Anyway, again sad news for the profession. I'm a bit disheartened by the way the message was delivered, but I'm not in the know on why things happen the way they do. I'm not blaming you TK, since Ithink you do a greatjob in a pretty hopeless position. I personally think it would have been nice to have had a Dev at least stop by and let us know if we were even on the right track. I would hazard to say that we may have been on the wrong one from the start, but we were allowed to roll along merrily. Communication is a two way street. We need to start having some coming the other way please.
I'll think about some ways that we can pull this one out of the fire, but nothing better than Sodan's proposal pops to mind. I have some serious problems with the DC profession tree, not least of which is that it is really nothing more than another combat class, which I believe we have PLENTY of now. A two tree profession cheapens the value of the DC and makes it a "dabblers" market. A four tree profession might be doable, but if it is a rehash of the CH, I see no real purpose in making this profession a separate profession. They could just as easily rename the CH to "Pet Handler (PH)" and sprinkle the droids around under that tree with minimal effort.
I am also a bit confused about all of this, since I seem to remember a post not that long about by Runesabre basically saying that the Dev's have NO desire to add a "metallic version of CH" to the professions. But isn't that what we will be getting if we go with the DC profession? What, specifically, separates theDC from the CH profession otherthan droids?Can't think of any huge difference so far, can you?
Heck, I think Runesabre even hinted that they weren't even all that interested in adding ANY new professions, so is this simply a way for us to occupy ourselves for a few more months?
Does this mean I will run, cursing and screaming, down the hall and smack my head against a wall becaue all is lost? Nah, I'll just watch my two boys do that, since they seem to find it funI'm a bit disappointed, but I'm going to try to stick it out. Hey, the weaponsmiths have to have SOMEONE to tease, dont they?
Anyway, thanks for the update TK. Go and have some fun and smack down a few punks on the Corvette for me
AudioOrgana
Fri Apr 02, 2004 7:51 pm
#44
Micco30 wrote:
so is this simply a way for us to occupy ourselves for a few more months?
Any development of any proposal regarding combat droids is futile.
They will implement whatever they want, and I for one refuse to play this "what do you want" game again.
Get me once, shame on you. Get me twice, or a third time, or a fourth time...shame on me.
AO
Message Edited by AudioOrgana on 04-02-2004 09:51 PM
TheRealTK421
Fri Apr 02, 2004 8:13 pm
#45
Icarus-6 wrote:
At a guess (and I am giving my guess since we may not hear what the exact problem is) the devs still felt it was a situation of putting new certificates into existing trees. They have pretty much categorically said that they would not do this. In fact, this combined with the statement than any droids above CL10 will require certs has virtually assured that there will have to be an Droid Commander profession, so the cards were always stacked against the proposal.
That didn't mean there was no point in attempting the proposal, however. It just meant the odds against it were pretty long. A proposal that really 'wowed' them might have made them reverse their decision. Unfortunately this proposal, while it may have been good and even balanced, failed to wow them sufficiently to make them wish to retract their earlier statement.
This is just a guess, of course.
Yea....I'd say this is about right. Or, there's a lot of this that rings true for what happened...
Malitevv wrote:
People seem to be assuming something different than what I assume when I hear of "balance issues".
When I read that the hybrid couldn't be implemented because of balance issues what I interpret is this: "we've learned the hard way that managing combat balance in a free-for-all multi-class system which has 30+ professions where players can freely mix and match any number of professions (to within the limits set by the skill point cap) is very, very hard. it requires lots of constant retuning over time as players isolate and then abuse loop hools in the interdependencies between the professions. We've learned that it is easier to tune things later if we work to minimize the degree to which the combat benefits from disparate professions directly "stack", and the hybrid does the opposite. Even if we could balance it on the first pass reasonably well. Tuning it later if problems begin to arise would be a painful. And we know from experience that it WILL require tuning later. Everything does."
This sums up pretty well what happened. It was good enough to warrant a good long look by the Devs, but not enough to actually be doable at an actual implementation shage. No balance.....no answer. It was simply the case that, as stated, the benefits of 2 professions in 1 couldn't work out.
Jenden wrote:
I'd much rather take constant baby steps in the right direction than leap off randomly...
This is the thing with our situation, unfortunately. We all want the 1 publish perfect fix when, in fact, the 'perfect' fix will be a series of smaller, smarter fixes and changes. Then, after Space, we get DC (or some other such solution, addition, change, etc.) and DE could be a ton closer to "done".
...more to come....
/bow
Respectfully,
Shadow71
Fri Apr 02, 2004 8:50 pm
#46
I agree with the above, Icarus and TK (and Mettiev on another rthread had some nice thoughts I agreed with as well).
Iree
Iree
Shian_Tavkin
Fri Apr 02, 2004 9:29 pm
#47
Well - - - - - - - Bugger
I really think thats the straw that broke the long suffering camel's back.
I'm out, I just cant wait any longer, nor do I have any faith in the wishy-washy Devs anymore.
They let us sweat buckets over Sodans proposal for weeks and weeks, and now we get the news that it is a no-go.
NEVER, and I have played a lot of these OL games, NEVER have a community been so abused.
Though it wont be popular, TK you have to say NO to this decision. Resign if need be, They cannot find a DE correspondant who would agree with them and that would be a massive embarrassment. Please, for the love of DE resign. Nobody else will get support, nobody else who matters will even stand, and then they have a real problem. For the slow minded, I'm not criticizing TK, but to be unable to get a DE correspondant to step up is a mighty blow to SOE, and they bloody well need it..
Grr, I really really didnt want to drop this profession, and now I'm going to have to.....it makes me sick.
Curses on them, may they reap what they have sown.
Disgustedly
Plzurpilot
Sat Apr 03, 2004 12:11 am
#48
wow this really blows
Im close to saying screw it and just give the combat droids to the Creature Handlers and change thier name to Droid & Creature Handlers.
Maybe Ill become a commando
CikMatt
Sat Apr 03, 2004 12:50 am
#49
Well, thanks for not posting this on April 1st. The joke wouldn't have been funny, and neither would the fact that it isn't a joke.
Gotta say I saw this coming. Not one dev posting in the Hybrid thread really gave the impression that they were trying to tread carefully around this one.
So we start over I guess. I suppose the first thing to do would be to find out exactly what they didn't like aside from the certs themselves. Were there any parts that they did think were more or less viable, and if so, what are they? What would THEY like to see, and what would THEY not like to see. Afterall, we've told them what we WANTED, and it's seems to not have really gotten through to them.
TheRealTK421
Sat Apr 03, 2004 1:04 am
#50
This is me....posting official info (but I worked up the post and TH basically gave the green light to release). So, this isn't me posting what TH or a Dev wrote. They approved my release of the info (based on discussions on the Corr. boards).
HawkCormyr wrote:
So if this is an official statement of DEVs team or TH, this is the end of my waiting periods as a MDE
I just had to get this nailed down, since I know people have been waiting for the official word on it. So, I pushed...and here we are....
ARC_Casper wrote:
...i would like to knowif this announcment hasany changes that were gonna come in publish 8?
No..what's been put on the posted list for Publish 8 changes is all still on the list. However, keep in mind that anything that's either "In-Concept" or "In-Development" is not a slam dunk to make it to Live. Some items end up being unworkable after some amount of work shows them to be. So, the list is always to be taken as not set-in-stone until it all hits Live.
and does this mean that publish 8 won't be the real Droid revamp?
It's still "Droids Rebuilt" (at least that's the name). It's all about utility, which we asked for when DH got dropped. They heard us say we wanted more utility too, so that's what Publish 8 is supposed to be all about for us.
slaier0702 wrote:
Have you had any feedback of utility droids being added in the future?
Yes...but nothing 'locked' enough to mention. Right now, the posted list of changes for Publish 8 is what's being worked on. If that changes (and I'm approved to release locked info), you'll know.
I can't say for sure yet but I'm guessing some of the announced 'mini-publishes' will try to squeeze in profession and Correspondent issues. They have always stated that bug-fixes, etc. are really ongoing and separate from out-and-out new content and gameplay requests (that require the balance 'strike force').
Malitevv wrote:
what does this mean about the futureof the profession's otherissues? what is officially on the plate for publish 8 still leaves many long-standing bugs and inconsistencies in the professions sitting on the table. i hope those will not be forgotten until after the space expansion.
I'm working to get more official info on issues and such as part of putting together an updated/revised "Top 5" (but a top 20 overall) of issues/bugs/requests.
/bow
Respectfully,
DigitalOne
Sat Apr 03, 2004 1:06 am
#51
You know, I'm really tired of yelling, screaming and begging without any positive result. Patiance turns to hoplessness.
How do the developers think we will keep this up? This just a game and at the same time much more than a game. We have invested considerable time and a portion of our lives dedicated to this pastime. We feel a commitment to our products and our characters due to our personal involvement. But time and time again, our personal sacrifice is proven to be in vain.
Thier vision and our reality do not overlap, one cannot see the forest through all these trees.
My days are numbered, there comes a time where truth becomes apperent, today is that day. How much longer can i face the screen knowing im at the extent of my limited potential. And how much longer will i dole out cash to those who shackle me with there "vision".
Redondo
Sat Apr 03, 2004 1:19 am
#52
I think the two-tree profession option is a good one, especially since creating a whole four tree profession would be hard to fill with content. I mean as a CH you have so many creatures you can tame and use, or buy from BEs. Without the variety of droids available now how boring would a four tree profession be. But here are some thoughts
Make droids craftable to any level, as a choice by the DE, use level would be determined by skill tree advancement.
Allow new specials to be programmed into droids by the DC/DH as they move up in level.
Allow more than 1 droid to be called out at a time by the DC/DH (since they'll probably never let DEs do it)
ok I can't think of anything else....
Prin Eckbo
Master Droid Engineer, Shadowfire