Droid Engineer Archive

First /salute Warryyr excellent post man. Exactly how I feel. The thing that bother me the MOST about Droids and JTL is that time WAS spent on Droids. If you were going to spend the time anyway, why not do it right?

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GnomeAd wrote:

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Straker_Atrella wrote:

I'm agreeing with what your saying about picking battles, yet here is my thinking on the matter.

Right now there are Programers and Developers "dedicated," to JTL. They are going to be dealing with JTL for a certain period of time, before they are moved somewhere else. Now obviously bugs and balance are (and should be,) their main focus.

However what if the developers (for whatever reason,) really don't understand what a PERFECT opportunity they missed for DE's. Now is the BEST time to make sure they realize it. People are slated not to fixing JTL, we need to make it clear that "fixing," involves Droids.

After the Developers and Programmers are moved onto other projects is NOT the time to do it.

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The problem here is that their next project is already slated for them. (Actually their next 4-5 projects) We aren't it. You were in beta and I'm sure you could tell that JtL has been the focus of 99% of the development effort for the last several months. Next, we're going to see the same effort placed on the "Combat Balance".

Not really true. People are already working on the Combat Revamp, GCW and that other stuff, it is probably already in the works. They have no way of knowing how long it will take for them to "fix," JTL. Either bug wise, balance wise, or content wise. Sure they can say, when these guys are done with JTL, they can go here, yet they have no way of konwing exactly when that will be. We need to convince them that part of "fixing" JTL involves Droids.

I think the single biggest thing we disagree on here is that JtL was the "perfect" time to fix DEs. It wasn't. It was the perfet time to fix Shipwright, Pilot and all the JtL content. If anything, it was the perfect time for them to fix smugglers, but they didn't do that either. It comes down to the biggest bang for your buck. They should be focusing on fixing the things that will help the largest number of players out. Right now, that's not DE. As a player of this game, I would rather see them fixing all the bugs that are causing problems to the player base as a whole. It's all about perspective. I'm a player of SWG first, and a DE second.

When is the perfect time then? After DE's are so far behind in the economy they can never "catch up." You said it yourself PERFECTLY in the red part up there. Droids and FC's being used in ships ARE part of JTL content. A very cool system from a pilot point of view was made. Time was spent on designing, and programming it from both a pilot view, as well as a crafting one. So if your making a new system, why put EXACTLY the same flaws in it as before?

You keep talking about "later." Someday they will get to us. Maybe that is true. See that's just it, they wouldn't have needed too. They were making a brand new Droid system in JTL. If they had made it right, (maybe like I proposed,) then short of bug fixes, they would have been DONE with DE's. No need for Droid Decay programming a year from now. We would have a good solid market. Smart Droid implementation now would have saved them time later. What's more "perfect" then that?

I have never said that any DE "love" should come before bug fixes. Bugs need fixed first. Actually that's sort of my point. If you get the most "bang for your buck," out of your programming, it frees up time for bugs. JTL was poor "bang for your buck," as far as Droids go.

I too am a player of SWG first, and a DE second, also a Doc, Musician, Dancer, Fencer, RIfleman, Swordsman, and Ranger. I play all of those toon types and care about the balance of every profession in the game. I quite often propose changes that are good for the game and not just me.

It's easy to say, "that's just one profession, it doesn't matter," yet for every Musician, Entertainer, Smuggler, Tailor, or DE, who leaves the game, they take friends with them. They play a new game, then get more friends to join them. Sure it may just be a trickle, but eventually you WILL bleed to death.

Message Edited by Straker_Atrella on 10-25-2004 09:35 AM

Message Edited by Straker_Atrella on 10-25-2004 09:36 AM

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Straker_Atrella wrote:

First /salute Warryyr excellent post man. Exactly how I feel. The thing that bother me the MOST about Droids and JTL is that time WAS spent on Droids. If you were going to spend the time anyway, why not do it right?

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100% agree. I don't understand that, either.

I'vewondered the same thing with the Entertainer Quest they just put in. They took all that time, and for what - 6 total "missions" that are the same 2 style of missions repeated 3 times (1 style of which is the newbie droid Quest for Entertainers, with just a number being incremented). Gets pretty dull. And if you fail, you wait 24 hours to try the mission again. Then, when it's all said and done, it costs Dancers or Musicians 400,000 xp to learn their new song or dance - so be aware that in the future, there may be an xp cost to learn new things. Probably not, they probably just decided to take yet another jab at Entertainers, but even so - heads up. With all that time spent on it, you'd think they would have done it right. But, they didn't. And all the griping and yelling in the world didn't change a thing - the new dance still went Live with a broken base step. The 400,000 xp penalty remained.

I think the best thing we can do is try to unify, and make a very concentrated effort to fill the feedback and issues threads with our very valid concerns. There's not really more we can do - ultimately, they'll do what they want, even though it very well may be bad for the game or make the game less fun for us. Just voice your opinion on it, and try to get others to be vocal. Then just hope someone looks your way and gives a womprat's *ss.

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Straker_Atrella wrote:

Not really true. People are already working on the Combat Revamp, GCW and that other stuff, it is probably already in the works. They have no way of knowing how long it will take for them to "fix," JTL. Either bug wise, balance wise, or content wise. Sure they can say, when these guys are done with JTL, they can go here, yet they have no way of konwing exactly when that will be. We need to convince them that part of "fixing" JTL involves Droids.

So we should lie to them and get them to spend time they would normaly be spending on something else to get them to "fix" droids? What you're suggesting they do to droids in JtL isn't a "fix" it's a new feature. "Fixing" droids has nothing to do with fixing JtL. Droids and Fcs in JtL are working as designed. Just because we don't like the design doesn't mean we can call it a bug.

As for the first part of your statement, if you'll look over the list of Devs in JtL you'll see that ALL the major devs are working on JtL in one way or another. (Including RT "our" dev)

When is the perfect time then? After DE's are so far behind in the economy they can never "catch up." You said it yourself PERFECTLY in the red part up there. Droids and FC's being used in ships ARE part of JTL content. A very cool system from a pilot point of view was made. Time was spent on designing, and programming it from both a pilot view, as well as a crafting one. So if your making a new system, why put EXACTLY the same flaws in it as before?

DEs aren't "so far behind" in the economy. Even you have stated that you've made over 50 million credits from droids. My god man, how much money do you think you need? Ya know what profession is really behind the power curve when it comes to making money? Tailors! If you want to get the devs to spend time on making a profession have better income, there's your target. They even got more out of JtL than we did and will still be barely getting by.

You keep talking about "later." Someday they will get to us. Maybe that is true. See that's just it, they wouldn't have needed too. They were making a brand new Droid system in JTL. If they had made it right, (maybe like I proposed,) then short of bug fixes, they would have been DONE with DE's. No need for Droid Decay programming a year from now. We would have a good solid market. Smart Droid implementation now would have saved them time later. What's more "perfect" then that?

I have never said that any DE "love" should come before bug fixes. Bugs need fixed first. Actually that's sort of my point. If you get the most "bang for your buck," out of your programming, it frees up time for bugs. JTL was poor "bang for your buck," as far as Droids go.

I too am a player of SWG first, and a DE second, also a Doc, Musician, Dancer, Fencer, RIfleman, Swordsman, and Ranger. I play all of those toon types and care about the balance of every profession in the game. I quite often propose changes that are good for the game and not just me.

It's easy to say, "that's just one profession, it doesn't matter," yet for every Musician, Entertainer, Smuggler, Tailor, or DE, who leaves the game, they take friends with them. They play a new game, then get more friends to join them. Sure it may just be a trickle, but eventually you WILL bleed to death.

They've already gotten to us. We got two publishes, remember? Guess how many the Pikemen got? How about Squad Leaders? Smugglers? Rangers? Look, I'm not saying that DEs are fine the way they are, what I'm saying is that there are a lot of professions that need to be fixed before they spend that amount of time on us again. How do you think the smugglers or SLs would react if they saw that much dev time being spent on us? How can you go to them and expect them to keep waiting in line while the devs tweak us some more?

Message Edited by Straker_Atrella on 10-25-2004 09:35 AM

Message Edited by Straker_Atrella on 10-25-2004 09:36 AM

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Straker_Atrella wrote:

As many of you know, I have been kind of bummed out over the past few days, was partly dissapointed with JTL (been since I got into Beta,) yet last night I realized what REALLY has me upset.

It's us as DE's. Don't get me wrong, I like all of you people, just keep reading and you will see what I mean.

The problem starts here.

The Player economy. Let's use FC's as an example.

Most ships only take Flight Computers, not Droids. There are a limited amount of Flight Computers to be sold. Say maybe 3000 of each level. That's it, then the market is gone. You can move them from one ship to another, they don't wear out. Eventually you wont be selling any more.

Now this is what really bothers me, DE's say hey at 1k, I am making a 15cpu profit. I'm making money.

No your not.

No your not.

Did I mention that you'r not?

Here is why.

Everybody else is making more. While you may add small amounts every day, everybody else is adding much much more. So yes, eventually shuttle tickets, harv maint and other fixed game things wont be a problem. Yet as a part of the PLAYER economy, you are a non-player.

Don't think so?

A 2 Minute Mission pays 32k

A suit of Composite Armor costs 200-300k

A set of Stun Armor Costs 500k

A good T21 goes for 100k

An uber SLiced t21 goes for 1 million plus.

A good Stun Baton goes for 10k

A good Ackley Stun Baton goes for 5 million +

A crate of Brandy sells for 100k+

Other Foods sell for even more.

A full set of Doc buffs in crates goes for about a million.

Getting buffed by a Doc costs 15k.

Mind Buffs cost 10k

Good Herb or Avian Meat sells for 200-300 cpu

A good Loot item sells for 1 million - 100 million

Now you may think that it's all the same money being passed around and around. IT'S NOT. Missions are free money. Each server probably has 100+ Million a day (probably way more,) just added to it from missions. That is free money that is added to the economy. EVERY single other person, whether they are a Combatent, Scout, Doc, or Armorsmith gets part of that free money. Prices on other servers may vary, but missions still pay 32k, if prices on your server are less, then that "mission money," is sitting in peoples banks.

The problem isn't Droid Decay, the problem is that DE's are Idealists, they think Droids are cool. They think that 15 cpu is plenty of profit. Yet what they don't realize is that 1k, 10k, heck 50k, is a MINISCULE part of the new money added every day.

While you add 1k, somebody else adds 10k. When you add 10k, somebody else adds 100k. You consider 1 million a lot of money, to others, that is nothing.

This means that right now, you can see a weapon that you like, say an Ackley Stun Baton. It costs 5 million. You bust your Arse selling Droids for the next 3 months, finally getting to 5 million, yet when you get there, they are being auctioned for 7 million. Their value didn't go up, EVERYBODY else just has more money to spend, you'r still a small fish.

You can keep adding money to your bank account, but when others are adding more, you fall more and more behind.

Not a new problem, same thing DE's have been dealing with. No Droid decay has contributed to it all along.

The Problem Continues.

"Droids will have a very usefull and strong role," in JTL.

Sound familiar? That is what we were promised from the Devs about JTL. You know what, their right. Droids and FC's are 100% usefull, usefull in a very cool way, everybody will want one.

It's from a crafting point of view that we got hosed. No complexity, no named resources, no quality mattering. Basically any piece of junk will do it. Things that will sell for 1k.

At the same time, Tailors got a new valid Market, the new clothes sell for more then our FC's.

Armorsmiths got 2 new types of Armor to make, now they will sell to those 2 new races. Like they need more money.

Shipwrights are added, a class which the wealthy with tons of resources will make the most money doing, getting richer.

Time was dedicated to Armorsmiths, Tailors, and Shipwrights, they all GAINED in the player economy.

Sure Droids were looked at, time was spent on them. From a PILOT point of view time was spent on Droids, but certainly no time was spent from a Droid ECONOMY point of view. Our "problems" were never considered at all.

In fact, a large portion of the money we make from JTL is offset by the loss of sales in Custom Kits.

We take it lying down.

When I first saw how Droids were done in Beta, I thought ohhh boy, man the DE's wont take this lying down. The Devs better brace for shock.

Yet what happened? Here is what De's say...

"JTL wasn't meant to fix Droids."

"Ohh well when Droid Decay comes in, we will be ok."

"I can make 15 cpu profit on Fc's."

"Droids are cool, we should be happy with that."

Sure some people (myself,) got upset, but overall, nobody seems to care. In fact, we have just shown the Devs that we DON'T care. No coding time should be spent on us, were happy with how things are.

Why should we be in an uproar.

How long have DE's complained about no money? How long have we griped about exp not mattering, nor resource quality? How long have we complained about Droid Decay?

A long long time. It is safe to assume the Devs know.

JTL took a long time to code, there were a lot of Developers working on it. They needed to build a new system implementing Droids into space from the ground up. Totally starting from scratch. While they were doing this, they KNEW about DE problems. Yet they totally choose to ignore them. They built a system that was cool functionally, yet suffered from EXACTLY all our past DE problems. If your building a whole new system anyway, why not make it right? They CHOOSE to make it wrong.

"JTL wasn't designed to fix DE problems."

Why not?

Why not have made Droids so great from a CRAFTING point of view that we had an extremely good space market. Other professions get the ground market, Shipwrights and DE's got space. Some people will play Ground only, some will play Space only, others will play both. So while the ground Droid game may still have had problems, we woudl have made more in space. Making up for it.

In fact, if they made Droids good enough in Space, there would not be a need for Droid Decay or ANY huge Droid changes later. Time could have been spent on other professions or Content.

They passed up a huge chance to "fix" us, and we took it lying down. Some people are actually "happy" with it.

The future wont be better.

A while back it was "JTL will be good for us."

Now it's "the Combat revamp or when they add Droid Decay, will be good for us."

Let's assume that the CR will be good, or Droid Decay does get added. Even Droid Commander.

It wont matter. You'r talking months and months down the road.

Lets say that 6 months from now DE's are making the same amount as everybody else. Let's say 500k a day.

Now we increase by 500k a day, they increase by 500k a day. If a DE started with 10 million and they started with 200 million, yet we still grow at the same rate. Who has deeper pockets? Who can pay more on auctions?

Every single day we fall further and further behind. It doesn't matter if you are making a "profit," if everybody else is making more.

That is why JTL was so crucial. It was a chance to fix things before they got any worse.

This is why I am so upset.

Obviously, I am upset how Droids were Implemented in JTL by the devs.

Yet I figured out what really has me upset. It's that the Majority of the DE's just don't care.

It's either they are too caught up in the "coolness" of droids, or they just don't understand how bad we got gyped in JTL.

I hope this post helps both types.

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MachineZed wrote:

Now my prices will have to drop to keep up with his (even though I have everyother resource DE needs, Malab Siliclatic Ore, Duranium Steel, Ditanium Steel) and I can make anything a customer wants, but he goes to Joe-Schmoe, because he always has, and he sells cheaper FCs.

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GnomeAd wrote:

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Straker_Atrella wrote:

Not really true. People are already working on the Combat Revamp, GCW and that other stuff, it is probably already in the works. They have no way of knowing how long it will take for them to "fix," JTL. Either bug wise, balance wise, or content wise. Sure they can say, when these guys are done with JTL, they can go here, yet they have no way of konwing exactly when that will be. We need to convince them that part of "fixing" JTL involves Droids.

So we should lie to them and get them to spend time they would normaly be spending on something else to get them to "fix" droids? What you're suggesting they do to droids in JtL isn't a "fix" it's a new feature. "Fixing" droids has nothing to do with fixing JtL. Droids and Fcs in JtL are working as designed. Just because we don't like the design doesn't mean we can call it a bug.

As for the first part of your statement, if you'll look over the list of Devs in JtL you'll see that ALL the major devs are working on JtL in one way or another. (Including RT "our" dev)

When is the perfect time then? After DE's are so far behind in the economy they can never "catch up." You said it yourself PERFECTLY in the red part up there. Droids and FC's being used in ships ARE part of JTL content. A very cool system from a pilot point of view was made. Time was spent on designing, and programming it from both a pilot view, as well as a crafting one. So if your making a new system, why put EXACTLY the same flaws in it as before?

DEs aren't "so far behind" in the economy. Even you have stated that you've made over 50 million credits from droids. My god man, how much money do you think you need? Ya know what profession is really behind the power curve when it comes to making money? Tailors! If you want to get the devs to spend time on making a profession have better income, there's your target. They even got more out of JtL than we did and will still be barely getting by.

You keep talking about "later." Someday they will get to us. Maybe that is true. See that's just it, they wouldn't have needed too. They were making a brand new Droid system in JTL. If they had made it right, (maybe like I proposed,) then short of bug fixes, they would have been DONE with DE's. No need for Droid Decay programming a year from now. We would have a good solid market. Smart Droid implementation now would have saved them time later. What's more "perfect" then that?

I have never said that any DE "love" should come before bug fixes. Bugs need fixed first. Actually that's sort of my point. If you get the most "bang for your buck," out of your programming, it frees up time for bugs. JTL was poor "bang for your buck," as far as Droids go.

I too am a player of SWG first, and a DE second, also a Doc, Musician, Dancer, Fencer, RIfleman, Swordsman, and Ranger. I play all of those toon types and care about the balance of every profession in the game. I quite often propose changes that are good for the game and not just me.

It's easy to say, "that's just one profession, it doesn't matter," yet for every Musician, Entertainer, Smuggler, Tailor, or DE, who leaves the game, they take friends with them. They play a new game, then get more friends to join them. Sure it may just be a trickle, but eventually you WILL bleed to death.

They've already gotten to us. We got two publishes, remember? Guess how many the Pikemen got? How about Squad Leaders? Smugglers? Rangers? Look, I'm not saying that DEs are fine the way they are, what I'm saying is that there are a lot of professions that need to be fixed before they spend that amount of time on us again. How do you think the smugglers or SLs would react if they saw that much dev time being spent on us? How can you go to them and expect them to keep waiting in line while the devs tweak us some more?

Message Edited by Straker_Atrella on 10-25-2004 09:35 AM

Message Edited by Straker_Atrella on 10-25-2004 09:36 AM

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I never said Droids were "bugged" in JTL. What I said was Droids (and FC's) were "content," that needed to be redone, and done right.

Yep, I made 50 million over 8 months, BEING THE ONLY TOP END DROID SUPPLIER FOR A WHOLE SERVER. If you wanted the best Bomb, Harvestor, and Combat Droids, you came to me. More then half of that money went back out to buy the reosurces, because they just wont spawn. I was the only one making them because I was the only one who could afford the resources.

How much money in 8 months do you think an AS woould make if he was the ONLY one on the server making 80% plus composite? How much money as a WS if his weapons were 25% higher damage then everybody else? In 8 months, they would both have maxed their banks at a Billion.

Your doing exactly what my point of this post is. Saying, "you made 50 million," yet under the circumstances, compared to what everybody else makes, that is nothing.

I am a strong supporter of Tailor love. Very strong, they need it in some ways worse then us. This publish was good for Tailors though, which is good.

You said "They have already given us 2 publishes, which is what more then others have gotten." You're 100% right. Yet we still have problems, people still want a Decay system down the road as well.

Under your logic, Droids should have NO place in JTL, we don't need more time right? Yet they DID put droids into JTL, they DID, take the time to do it. So if they were putting them in and taking the time, why not fix our market problems for good?

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LonelyGhost wrote:

I joined Galaxies to be a DE. Its the god-honest truth. I was very excited to be able to build and program these complex machines.

IMHO, DE sets the standard in many ways for the rest of the game. Its been hinted at before, by TH and others. The dependancies we have is the bar, and the other professions will be brought up to our level. Our income is probably about right for a normal game. Yes, I think decay will put it right, or a SW-type ability ot swap out components. But the problem isnt really DE, its everyone ELSE!

The fact that WS and AS can and do charge hundreds of CPU for their goods is becuase credits in this game or worthless! Anyone with a decent combat toon can make over a million a night without breaking a sweat! With so much money around, and people able to throw down huge wads of it, its natural to see a huge curve seperating the things people must have and might want. If you compare the cost to run 8 harvs, 1 home, a factory or two, and a few vendors, you get a number that represents the "cost to operate" as a crafter. This number is insignificant compared to the earning potential of players! Combat types really only worry about a couple houses and replacing their equipment. But I suspect the cost for them is roughly about the same. So what we are seeing is a vast imbalance between the amount of money coming in and the amount of money going out.

Frankly, I call Bulls$#t on that Friday Feature a few months ago that indicated that the game economy has been running at a slight loss to drain off excess credits. What crap!

INHO, the future is bright. The combat balance will remove (please, god, PLEASE!) the ability to farm credits like it is currently. I see the earning potential for combat players to be MUCH lower than it is now. Skill tape sales, Geo loot, all that stuff will dry up as people are no longer able to solo those "top end" mobs.

This will lead to a period of drought for newer/not rich players as they cannot afford the cost of goods from the entrenched rich crafters. After a few months, prices will start to fall as the credits coming in will finally meet the credits leaving. In this bright future, WS,AS, DE, SW, all will be much closer in their income levels. While WS and AS prices come down, our prices (should) stay the same.

But this also assumes we get a decent decay system in, more chassis to sell, and better fuctionality for our droids.

I've been a part of this board from nearly the beginning (different forum account). We have gone through nasty phases. The Devs have not responded. We went through dead periods. The Devs have not responded. What we do is pretty much useless. Look, things have not changed! What we need changed has not varied for several months! The Devs know what is wrong. The problem is that WE DONT KNOW whats happening! All we hear is vague or false promises, or silence. They wont tell us the criteria needed for changes to DE, so we cant effectively "help" them. They wont tell us WHY some of the excellent proposals over the last year were discarded.

The problem isn't us, its the lack of communicationbetween the DEVS and US. Our correspondent program is great, but does US no good since the CS cannotTELL us the things we NEED to know!

Until the Devs drop the iron wall and engage us, we will not see much, if any, progress.

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Lonely, I agree, the problem is this.

Let's say that the high end earning potential goes away. No more big missions for free money. Loot drops like tapes are not the same thing, people pay basically what the current economy feels it is worth.

When themissionsgo away, the value of the credit will rise. Prices will start to drop, since they are pushed high by inflation. This means that the people with the hugewallets will STILL have an advantage. Their 600 million in the bank, can now buy 3 times as much, since prices are lower.

Since money isn't as easy to get and prices drop, our Droid prices will be forced to drop as well. If the high payoff missions didn't exist, people would want to pay even less for our Droids. The entire economy will scale to the availability of credits. The people with the deep pockets now will have an edge.

This is why I feel that "time" is crucial. The wait and see attitude just gets the "behind professions," farther and farther behind.

While I agree the high payoff missions are what contributed to the problem, they really are not it. The NEED for a product is what allows the other professions to charge those high amounts. Simply killing those missions WONT fix the problem, may make it worse. You need to bring the "behind professions," up to par in the NEED catagory. Then those professions will be able to grab a larger chunk of the mission money.