Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Droid Engineer, Droid Commander, and Droid Cert System A possible compromise
It addresses many concerns, including the ability for Droid Engineers to use what we make, while still allowing for widespread use of droids.
I still, however, have a gut-level reaction to the very idea of an entire (or half) profession dedicated to the purpose of using droids. It may be inevitable, it may be the only way to ensure game balance, but it sure does not feel like Star Wars to me.
As far as I am concerned, combat droids are nothing more or less than another military tool, and those who have martial training and abilities should be able to make excellent use of them. My dream runs more along the lines of enhanced strategy and tactics becoming available as one learns to be a better soldier.
Essentially, I believe that anyone who can afford a droideka (and I don't have a problem making them expensive) should be able to order it to attack. However, a Squad Leader or Commando or Rifleman or whatever should be BETTER at ordering attacks, allowing for (additional or perhaps just SOME) special attacks and whatnot. As an engineer, I probably shouldn't even understand the concept of suppression fire, never mind being able to effectively order my droids to perform it. If, however, I have taken some pistoleer training (as I have) then maybe I could get the droids to kick off some bleed shots and such. Essentially, the droids need to be an extension of my own abilities.
Unfortunately, this is a game, and 'balance' seems to be considered much more important than realism, continuity, or even fun. What was that word, Rho? Fun?!?
I STILL consider the overemphasis on combat-oriented droids to be a big mistake, as it has led to precisely what we are seeing in the community today.
Drashk wrote:
The entire reason that I support the Droid Commander idea is because it will give DEs the best window of opportunity for a crafting system that does not create cookie cutter droids.By creating a profession, later on down the line, that would control higher level combat droids, Droid Engineers would finally be able to truely craft droids. I have yet to really craft a droid in the months that I have played this game. Instead I have been simply rubber stamping each droid that I make. One of the biggest complaints about being a DE is that our experimentation system is meaningless. When it finally gets a make over, which it will as stated in this very forum, I would much rather see that it is a robust system that allows for a wide varity, like the re-vamped BE system, then to see it capped at lower levels.
Do the two have to be mutually exclusive? What we want is for our profession to get meaningful experimentation regardless of if they implement combat droids or not. Don't cloud the issue. it's not an either/or proposition, it is?
The suggestion of giving Droid Engineers the ability to be the only profession to use high end droids is extremely short sighted and based upon the idea that changing the prereqs for an existing profession is a viable solution. I don't think that this idea has been thought out to its fruition and I would like to see how it would be suggested to change the prereqs on an existing Profession without creating major problems for those that do not have the new required skills come patch day. Therewould also be the need to have at least 1 branch of the DE tree that was devotedentirely to Droid Combat Experience, to balance out thenew Combat Droid skills.The only way that I see as aconceivableoption would be for everyone to lose all of their DE skills, including those that had the new prerequisites, so that everyone would be on the same footing. Hundreds of thousands of experience would be lost and not only would everyone have to re-grind the crafting experience everyone would have to grind Droid Combat Experience.
C'mon, you can say "ill conceived" if you disagree with it, but "short sighted" it's not. if the devs would communicate with us up front, I really don't see this one as an issue. I would estimate that about 80% of all DEs are already MAs anyway. As long as we are informed that this is the direction that it will be going, how hard will it be to get MA prior to the patch? MA can be acheived in a very short time by a DE. Make a couple dozen personal harvesters and sample for a few hours and you're there.
As for the one branch theory, this is exactly the wrong way to do it. The one branch is the reason CHs got nerfed as it leads to dabbling. Spread the cert out along the four branches like the existing CH tree.
Even after all of the Droid Engineers re-grinded their way up to Master, who would their target sales audience be? The creation of a new profession would create a much larger sales base, especially in the first 2 months after the profession was released. All a DE would have to do is list a vendor on the World Map as Droideka Vendor and sit back and watch the E-mails multiply.
We won't loose our existing revenue stream since we will still be able to make our existing product line, but we can add the revenue of selling combat droids to the lower level DEs. If you put the use schematic for combat droids in the tier 3-4 range, we will be able to sell them to lower level DEs. This will actually give you the best of both worlds. You can sell combat droids up to around CL20-30 to lower level DEs that can't make them yet.
Under the three systems that I outlined, a Droid Engineer would be able to still own most, if not all of the droids that we would be able to make, if at a lesser droid level. Many are based upon the assumption that the level on each droid will be based upon the droid and not upon the experimentation of the droid. Why else would the DEVs even be considering a new profession unless we are going to be able to craftdroids with more varied levels, which means a crafting system that works.
This assumes a lot here. I don't think that they are looking at experimentation as a means to level this out at all. I think they'll take the easy way out and give us CL levels tied to chassis and "combat module" levels. We will be getting "Combat Module" level 1-6.
Just food for thought
Droid_Engineer_Rho wrote:
Not bad, Drashk... Not bad.
As far as I am concerned, combat droids are nothing more or less than another military tool, and those who have martial training and abilities should be able to make excellent use of them. My dream runs more along the lines of enhanced strategy and tactics becoming available as one learns to be a better soldier.
Something that stuck me as odd the other day, as I sat and watched Episode I with my sone, is that Episode I suggestes that there actually are 'Droid Commanders'. Why else would every single droid go silent after the Control ship was destroyed? I know that the Control ship/Droid army symbiosis was more than likely some type of hive mind set up, but there is still relationship. The Droid Commander profession actuallycould be concievedas fitting in with this concept module, just like Utility droids being controlable by anyone is based upon thier sentient nature. Unfortunatly neither concept model is relevant when you consider we are talking about a game that only lossely based upon the Star Wars Universe. 
Sorry, just had to throw that one out there.
For simple droids like the roger-rogers, I could see this as a means of lowering COSTS involved. Why would I need to put a set of advanced, combat-capable Advanced Combat Droid Brain components into a droid, when I could instead just put in a remote control receiver?
Very true Rho, however it still stands that what we see in the movies and the EUreally do not have much baring on the argument of who can and cannot use a droid. The game mechanics take precedence over such arguments each and every time. If they did not, then anyone running around with a weapon more powerful than a Scout Blaster should be arrested by a Stormtrooper.
Drashk wrote:
The AXP was suggested so that it could counter balance the low cost of Skill points. It is also a balancing feature in that it takes time to gain AXP and would bring one more check system that would limit some people from grinding for Droid Certs. This is mostly there for the DEVs benefit, since it could be considered a gate by some peoples standards.
The problem with using AXP as a "gate" is that while it will stop you or I, the power gamers have it down to a science. This makes it a gate for the average player, but the type of people you don't want walking around with "killer dr0idz" are the ones who won't have a problem with it.
Drashk wrote:anyone running around with a weapon more powerful than a Scout Blaster should be arrested by a Stormtrooper.
Can you say "Imperial Crackdown"? ;-)
I've read through the original post a few times and, at such a cursory glance, this appears to be an excellent compromise.
Drashk wrote:
The AXP was suggested so that it could counter balance the low cost of Skill points. It is also a balancing feature in that it takes time to gain AXP and would bring one more check system that would limit some people from grinding for Droid Certs. This is mostly there for the DEVs benefit, since it could be considered a gate by some peoples standards.
At the very least, this plan is a great starting off point from which we could tweak.
I think it accomplishes a few things:
1) Gives DEs droids that they can use.
2) Gives other non-DEs cool new droids that they can use (this will also get better as other utility features are added).
3) It provides a Commander system that will allow combat droids to get closer to the power in combat of a CH, which we all know there many that want.
4) It appropriately "gates" the system in various areas and ways.
I'll have to put more thought into this to see if any glaring items pop out but here's some points of contention or things that I'm concerned over in your system.
1) Why do all the certs need to be tied to combat experience? Is there not some way to apply either crafting experience OR combat? This would allow a client to expend whatever type of skill points and XP that they want...instead of having combat forced on them (prior to when they may be ready to do it).
2) I actually think that the AP requirements for "The Droid Level certs" could be increased. I'd start at 150 for level 1 and have the top level be 1000. Just spread the middle out evenly and redistribute a bit. That would make a lot of sense to me (and the Devs will likely find this an acceptable gate).
In reply to your stated goals for the proposal:
I think the important balancing act that any system has to have is that it gives the 'pure' crafter camp and the 'I'd-like-to-use-my-droids-to-defend-myself' camp equal weight in the profession. Both playstyles need to be possible......and fun. It's true that DEs would primarily craft. I do like, however, that your plan allows for us to have *some* droid handling possibilities...for those that inclined to take advantage of it.
If you only want to craft, and never want to fire a shot or use a "Combat droid", one would simply opt to not utilize these available features. Those that DID want that would have that freedom.
I don't think that this is too much to ask. Part of the point to all this is to get a LOT more droids into the entire game. The Devs, and obviously us, know that this leads to a game environment that feels a LOT more like Star Wars. I'm always willing to trade a partly unbalanced system for one that is a lot more immersive and feels like what we all thought SWG would feel like.
Will undoubtedly be done. I'm beginning to accept this as a done-deal. If that's the case, I only wish to see it logically integrate into the game in a way that's not exclusive to players. The entire point of droids, to me, is that they are a leveling factor...an inclusive "tool". Everyone can work some kind of droid. It's true that we DEs have never wanted all players to have uber droids or pets. If those are to be had in this game, I don't think a lot of DEs will shout that we want them...since I know many are vehemently against DEs becoming the flavor-of-the-day template for uber combat.
I think your plan addresses this pretty well, best as I can tell.
Okay...I'm all for stages. There's even a chance or a probability that we will see less bugs and balance issues by implementing the total plan in stages.
This makes it easier for the DEs to test/learn the new changes over time.
I'm concerned however, that the playerbase will get some of the plan in place and really, really love it. Then, at some point down the line, the Devs' metrics will show them numbers we don't like and the nerfage will start.
If you can run this past the Devs on the Corr. board, see if they will respond to how feasible this is as a starting point to build the best compromise solution. If they agree that this could be the new baseline from which we will all work, that would help to focus the community on how to best tweak the plan.
I'd also hope that they could help you to alter this plan such that nerfing any aspect would NEVER be needed.
With those concerns and items on the table, I'd have to say..............
Well done. My hat is off to you, sir. NOW we're getting somewhere.
/bow
Respectfully,
GnomeAd,
GnomeAd wrote:
The problem with using AXP as a "gate" is that while it will stop you or I, the power gamers have it down to a science. This makes it a gate for the average player, but the type of people you don't want walking around with "killer dr0idz" are the ones who won't have a problem with it.
You know as well as I that the power gaming crowd will figure out a way to bypass/circumvent whatever gates are put in place. I don't think we should try to create a system that keeps out power gamers and will also be nearly-impossibly-gated for the casual, non-power gamers.
/bow
Respectfully,