Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Once again nothing but air it seems.
Gnome,
GnomeAd wrote:
BoberFett wrote:
Please don't start with that again. Weaponsmiths can't use guns. Bio-engineers can't use creatures. Droid engineers shouldn't be droid handlers.
Chefs eat food, Tailors wear clothes, Smugglerstake spice, Armorsmiths wear armor, CHs tame and use pets, BEs use the under level 10 pets they make, Artisan's use Nimodian Bird Cages....ok maybe not that last one, but the others are all true!
Stop trying to explain this to people that, quite frankly, don't want to hear it. There are some that have simply made up their minds on this issue and that's that.
I agree with your analogy to Chefs, Tailors, etc.
The difference (and not a small one) is that there's no such things as:
- Combat Food (explodingBofa Treats?)
- Combat clothing (throwing a shoe, perhaps?)
I do know that just because we craft a combat-capable 'object', it does NOT mean that we should be prevented from using that product...even though any other player would be able to with no problem.
/bow
Respectfully,
TheRealTK421 wrote:
I do know that just because we craft a combat-capable 'object', it does NOT mean that we should be prevented from using that product...even though any other player would be able to with no problem.
I don't believe that I have ever seen any Droid Engineers post that we should not be able to use all of the droids we can create. So I really don't know where people are getting this idea - for the most part, we all want to be able to use all of the the droids we are able to make. (Class-specific droids such as the current Bounty Hunter droids are excepted, of course.)
The divisive issue has always been combat droids that are only usable by Droid Engineers and no one else. Some people want them, others do not. This is the issue that is split roughly 50-50.
Kollos,
Kollos wrote:
The divisive issue has always been combat droids that are only usable by Droid Engineers and no one else. Some people want them, others do not. This is the issue that is split roughly 50-50.
On the point above, I totally agree.
My take is...
Why shouldn't a Master DE, for example, get some 'perks' (such as using a special MDE-only combat droid)?!?
Master CHs enjoy a very similar perk for their dedication to their 'craft'.
And...I really hope that no one decides here that having the ability to build a BLL or Adv. Protocol qualifies as anything close to a "perk".
/bow
Respectfully,
Kollos wrote:
I don't believe that I have ever seen any Droid Engineers post that we should not be able to use all of the droids we can create. So I really don't know where people are getting this idea - for the most part, we all want to be able to use all of the the droids we are able to make. (Class-specific droids such as the current Bounty Hunter droids are excepted, of course.)
The divisive issue has always been combat droids that are only usable by Droid Engineers and no one else. Some people want them, others do not. This is the issue that is split roughly 50-50.
Kollos, the voicing of wanting to control all of the droids that we create has come up on occasion. It is usually made by those that wish to turn DE into a BE/CH combonation.
From what I have been reading, the DE community isn't split 50/50. It is actually split 62/33/5.
Approximately 62% of the responses thatI have read, from various threads, want a Driod Cert system that allows all professions the ability to have higher level combat droids with Droid Engineers having a slight advantage. Whether this advantage is an extra droid being called or a DE certs having the same value as an equal level Combat Profession such as Pistoleer is still in debate
Approximately 33% of the responses have stated that they only wish to be crafters and not have any kind of special benefits.
5% of theresponses have stated that they wish to become a that DE was turned into the robo veresion of CH.
BTW - I am working on trying to get that update
Message Edited by Drashk on 01-12-2004 02:21 PM
TheRealTK421 wrote:
Why shouldn't a Master DE, for example, get some 'perks' (such as using a special MDE-only combat droid)?!?
There's no simple answer to that question because you're touching on two very separate issues.
Issue #1) should Master-level characters of Elite professions (such as Master Droid Engineers) be granted some sort of 'perk' that is unique to their status as a Master of an Elite profession?
Issue #2) should Droid Engineers, which are currently a purely crafting profession, be given a skill or perk that is purely combat oriented such as a combat droid that only they can use?
I'm behind you all the way on Issue #1. I think that Master-level characters should have something cool and functional that lets everyone else see that they have achieved Master status in their profession. You could argue that the BLL-ADV and Protocol-ADV currently fill that role, but if sothey'rea pretty lame perk simply because there's no real difference between a BLL and a BLL-ADV. (At least the Protocol-ADV can carry modules while the standard Protocol cannot.)
However, issue #2 is a fundamental change to the Droid Engineer profession. When it comes to a change this fundamental and radical, the proper question is "Why should this change be made?" and not "why not do it?" I have yet to see a solid argument explaining why Droid Engineers should be given a combat droid that only they can use.
Change for the sake of change is almost uniformly bad. Unless someone can come up with a good reason to make this change, then it absolutely shouldn't be made. Even if someone can come up with one good reason, there are plenty of good reasons not to do it and so the pros and cons would have to be weighed.
Drashk wrote:
Approximately 62% of the responses thatI have read, from various threads, want a Driod Cert system that allows all professions the ability to have higher level combat droids with Droid Engineers having a slight advantage. Whether this advantage is an extra droid being called or a DE certs having the same value as an equal level Combat Profession such as Pistoleer is still in debate
Approximately 33% of the responses have stated that they only wish to be crafters and not have any kind of special benefits.
No offense, Drashk, but those groupings are so nebulous that there's no credibility to the numbers you are using. You're lumping several different groups together to get to that 62% "majority".
For instance, where would you put me?
I don't fit precisely into either of those groups. The one big thing that I oppose is a DE-only combat droid. Does that opposition put me into the "pure crafter" group as you have delineated the groups? If so, why? I support a cert system. I support Droid Engineers being able to call more droids than other professions. I support Droid Engineers (particularly Masters) having some sort of unique droid that only they can use, as long as it isn't a combat droid. I even support Droid Engineer certs being as "powerful" as other combat professions' certs.
"Pure crafter" is not the opposite of "give DEs some benefits", yet that's how your groupings spin it.
/bow
Kollos wrote:
TheRealTK421 wrote:
Why shouldn't a Master DE, for example, get some 'perks' (such as using a special MDE-only combat droid)?!?
There's no simple answer to that question because you're touching on two very separate issues.
No...there IS a simple answer. Give us ALL what we all want.
Issue #1) should Master-level characters of Elite professions (such as Master Droid Engineers) be granted some sort of 'perk' that is unique to their status as a Master of an Elite profession?
I'd have to think that everyone would answer "yes" to this. If you don't...well....phooey!
Issue #2) should Droid Engineers, which are currently a purely crafting profession, be given a skill or perk that is purely combat oriented such as a combat droid that only they can use?
Well...I guess this is a blind debate, since we know nothing at all about the planned combat droid changes. That impacts this discussion to its very core.
I happen to think that it's perfectly logical for DEs to have access to better combat droids than the masses. Why?
Training.
We KNOW how to use our 'products' because we built them.
It is right to think that a guy using a PC (and Windows) for the very first time will be able to do/usethe same things as a guy that can program a Cray?
Think about it, all.
I'm behind you all the way on Issue #1. I think that Master-level characters should have something cool and functional that lets everyone else see that they have achieved Master status in their profession. You could argue that the BLL-ADV and Protocol-ADV currently fill that role, but if sothey'rea pretty lame perk simply because there's no real difference between a BLL and a BLL-ADV. (At least the Protocol-ADV can carry modules while the standard Protocol cannot.)
The only thing I'd consider a "perk" at the Master DE level right now is Level 6 armor (yawn) and Level 6 Item storage (yawn and stretch).
These two droids aren't perks. To anyone in the know, they are more like cruel jokes.
However, issue #2 is a fundamental change to the Droid Engineer profession. When it comes to a change this fundamental and radical, the proper question is "Why should this change be made?" and not "why not do it?" I have yet to see a solid argument explaining why Droid Engineers should be given a combat droid that only they can use.
Hmmmm...you kind of gave one of the best solid arguments, in your own words:
"I think that Master-level characters should have something cool and functional that lets everyone else see that they have achieved Master status in their profession."
Master DEs should have the freedom to have/use this kind of perk. If a person is a non-combat, pure crafter type....just don't get/use of the MDE-only droids. That's not so hard, is it?
But...should those that DO desire this playstyle (or perk) be denied it for no other reason than "We're a crafting profession, that's all.". I personally see that vision of our profession as HORRIBLY limiting.
Doesn't it make sense that the best Droid Engineers would be able to make/use the best combat droids possible?
If so, why should be normal that any player in the game would be able to match an MDE's level of skills with such an item?
(see previous argument of PC novice vs. Cray programmer)
Change for the sake of change is almost uniformly bad. Unless someone can come up with a good reason to make this change, then it absolutely shouldn't be made. Even if someone can come up with one good reason, there are plenty of good reasons not to do it and so the pros and cons would have to be weighed.
I'd agree on this point. Any change that's discussed has to be arrived at carefully, with forethought, or we'll all be collectively shooting ourselves in the negative power coupling.
As stated above, a lot of the core discussion points on this issue are kind of moot right now, since we do not yet know if there will be a droid combat certification and how combat droid (or combat modules) are being planned for implementation.
So...I guess it's best to leave this divisive topic for a time when we have a LOT more details on which to base our decisions.
Respectfully,
Drashk wrote:
Approximately 62% of the responses thatI have read, from various threads, want a Driod Cert system that allows all professions the ability to have higher level combat droids with Droid Engineers having a slight advantage. Whether this advantage is an extra droid being called or a DE certs having the same value as an equal level Combat Profession such as Pistoleer is still in debate
Drashk: *Bow* Once again this is an AMAZING statement of the issue...you are doing a great job.
I think some of us are confusing one of the main issues here...
I don't thinkthat many are saying DEs shouldn't be able to use all combat droids that are being added to the game, the question is merely whether the new combat droids should be DE-only.
If the new combat droids were implemented forall "combatclasses" with some sort of certification system, I think that most of us would agree that DE's should ALSO get those same certifications to use combat droids somewhere in our skill trees. I am fully in the crafter camp and even I agree with that.
Crafters want new combat droids to sell, but most say that DEs should be able to use them too; proponents for the original TH plan want new combat droids to use, but most say that new combat droids to sell are also needed. I think the only real issue that is left is how much of a difference there will be between the power of droids availableDEsas opposed toother classes (whether through multiple droids, or through more powerful droids).
Of course, I would argue that DE's should have a slight, but not huge,droid advantage (through pulling 2 combat droids instead of one), because having good combat droids available to other classes is good for sales. However that is, of course, up for debate. 
Kollos wrote:
No offense, Drashk, but those groupings are so nebulous that there's no credibility to the numbers you are using. You're lumping several different groups together to get to that 62% "majority".
For instance, where would you put me?
I don't fit precisely into either of those groups. The one big thing that I oppose is a DE-only combat droid. Does that opposition put me into the "pure crafter" group as you have delineated the groups? If so, why? I support a cert system. I support Droid Engineers being able to call more droids than other professions. I support Droid Engineers (particularly Masters) having some sort of unique droid that only they can use, as long as it isn't a combat droid. I even support Droid Engineer certs being as "powerful" as other combat professions' certs.
"Pure crafter" is not the opposite of "give DEs some benefits", yet that's how your groupings spin it.
Actually Kollos, you do fit into one of these groups by your own statement.By your statement you are in the 62% group that wants the DE profession to be a Crafter that gets some kind of 'perk' such as the ability to call a second droid. Its the same group that you were already in when I did my search.
The Prue crafters are the ones that have stated that they do not want any benefits.
I think I have a pretty firm grasp on what many are looking for, especially after reading approximately 400+ posts to find this information.
Kollos wrote:
I support Droid Engineers (particularly Masters) having some sort of unique droid that only they can use, as long as it isn't a combat droid.
Why?
What exactly is so bad about MDEs having a unique combat droid that qualifies as a "perk"?
In what way is that game-breaking or profession-breaking?
I don't ask to be facetious...I really want to know, because right now I just can't see it.
If there are the ex-CHs that rush in and think that getting to MDE will let them be "uber" with their droid, they might think again when they realize what a grind DE can be.
They might realize that the combat bonuses aren't nearly what they could be, had they simply used the best possible non-MDE combat droid and focused skill points elsewhere (for more uberness).
And...even if they did decide to play that way...they wouldn't really compete with you for sales. They got MDE to get the Droideka and go out and be uber in combat with it.
How does that honestly hurt the game/profession/etc.?
Now...lemme state that none of the descriptions above are "me". However, I can see a benefit to an 'uberish' MDE-only combat droid when:
- You're a Master DE
- You're a Master Artisan
- You're a Master Merchant
- Etc.
Should an MDE, in that situation, have no 'perkish' way to defend themselves by using a really cool droid to do their dirty work for them?
/bow
Respectfully,
TheRealTK421 wrote:
Kollos wrote:
I support Droid Engineers (particularly Masters) having some sort of unique droid that only they can use, as long as it isn't a combat droid.
Why?
What exactly is so bad about MDEs having a unique combat droid that qualifies as a "perk"?
In what way is that game-breaking or profession-breaking?
I don't ask to be facetious...I really want to know, because right now I just can't see it.
If there are the ex-CHs that rush in and think that getting to MDE will let them be "uber" with their droid, they might think again when they realize what a grind DE can be.
They might realize that the combat bonuses aren't nearly what they could be, had they simply used the best possible non-MDE combat droid and focused skill points elsewhere (for more uberness).
And...even if they did decide to play that way...they wouldn't really compete with you for sales. They got MDE to get the Droideka and go out and be uber in combat with it.
How does that honestly hurt the game/profession/etc.?
Now...lemme state that none of the descriptions above are "me". However, I can see a benefit to an 'uberish' MDE-only combat droid when:
- You're a Master DE
- You're a Master Artisan
- You're a Master Merchant
- Etc.
Should an MDE, in that situation, have no 'perkish' way to defend themselves by using a really cool droid to do their dirty work for them?
This may have been directed for Kollos, but I'm going to comment on it.
Instead of the droid being a MDE specific combat droid, it could be simply a MDE droid that has the ability to accept a combat module. One of the things thatI am going to bring up in the next few weeks is that each crafting profession should have some kind of Master Level perk. I don't think that a droid that is specificly used for combat would be a good idea.Having a droid that is a MDE perk that can also accept a combat module, would be more in line with being a Droid Engineer.
TheRealTK421 wrote:
Well...I guess this is a blind debate, since we know nothing at all about the planned combat droid changes. That impacts this discussion to its very core.
I happen to think that it's perfectly logical for DEs to have access to better combat droids than the masses. Why?
Training.
We KNOW how to use our 'products' because we built them.
It is right to think that a guy using a PC (and Windows) for the very first time will be able to do/usethe same things as a guy that can program a Cray?
Think about it, all.
Ok TK, I have always had a big problem with this argument, but I will offer an alternative (against my better judgment, because it circumvents some of my arguments on the issue )
I think it is silly to say that anyone is better at "using" droids. There are no remote controls, no joysticks, no operators, and (using your example of a PC) no one typing at a keyboard. Skill is irrelevant. The DE programs the droid initially with AI and commands, and anyone that can speak can thereafter issue those commands. It does not take an engineer to say "attack," "stay," or "go repair that." It just doesn't make sense to me.
Now, as an alternative, here is what does make sense: The empire beat the hell out of the droid armies, and have outlawed combat droids. The art of making certain combat droids has all but been lost, and spare parts are relatively rare. Consequently, it would take a great deal of engineering skill to figure out how to make some of these combat droids, requiring reverse engineering on old parts and ingenuity. Because they are hard to make, and parts are very rare, it makes some sense that only DEs would be able to makecertain "lost" combat droids and the droids (being a major lifetime accomplishment to the DE to make) would be way too important and valuable to sell to anyone else.
Now, this argument could also be used to support the contradictory positions of "DE's should have a DE-only droid, but that droid should (1) not be combat oriented, or (2) should not be that much more powerful and DE-only droids"and "everyone should be able to use all combat droids, but DE's make them so they should get to have more out at the same time," but it does support the DE-only droid nonetheless.