Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Fundamental Question Concerning the DE-only Combat Droids Concept
DE is not a combat class because it is artisan based. Fine. CH is scout based and scout is not a combat class. It comes with no inherent weapon certs. Rather than craft their pets, they find and tame them. Despite the obvious differences and my personal distaste for the CH profession, there are similarities.
DE cannot be rightfully compared to other artisan-based crafting classes either though. Our creations are not inanimate objects and lumping us into the same boat as tailors and armorsmiths does not serve us at all.
Grimjakk wrote:
Jenden wrote:
In the minds of most posters I've read in other forums, responding to the "Poké-War" issue, its not the pet so much as the lack of "StarWarsiness" of the creature. I think its both, but that's being dealt with in the new publish.
In the minds of the devs and many of the players I've talked to its more a matter of pets taking the place of grouping and teamwork (this is a MMORPG, part if the idea is to form groups with other players, not pets)
Game balance trumps the "legal allowance" argument, tho' that would be a great RP hook.
I could see that, though I thinkanything you do involving pets and combat droids will screw with the game balance, its just what minimizes it.
If you're referring to the BE and CH proffessions, the BE profession is (or perhaps should be) more focused onpet by-products (tissues and buffs), mounts,and enhanced pets. non-dabbling CH's "roll their own" already, and after the next publish there will be far fewer dabblers to sell BE-engineered pets to. I think they need some dev-love too, but that shouldn't affect our issues.
No, I was referring to the fact that we are a crafting profession in that we sell usefull products to all the other characters in the galaxy. It would be more equivalent to saying its combining weaponsmiths and CH's. If you took out all the utility droids we can make, then it wouldn't create balance issues, but you can't.
Don't CH's tame and train their own pets? Aren't they going to be the exclusive source of trained mounts? If CH's are losing that ability, and I just missed that post, then you have a point. Otherwise...
I don't think that CH's training mounts would differ them enough to justify both professions, they would still be essentially the same thing.
Jenden Morn - Master Droid Engineer - Mos Espa, Tarquinas
Owner, Operator, and Founder of DarkStar Inc.
Teaching customers about their new droids is one of the most enjoyable aspects of being a DE for me. To me it's fun, part of my game experience. Nearly all of my customers were very happy that I took the time to fully answer their questions, and I was happy to oblige them. A win-win scenario!
EricTheGreat wrote:
You know what's really a headache?
Taking 5 mins to explain to someone how to program their droid.
What's even more of a headache?
Spending another 5 mins telling them how to name it.
More efficient maybe, but harder also. I doubt many MDE's would agree with you about giving up master artisan.
IsaacPalinander wrote:
I guess my problem with all of this is that the camp of DEs that do not want DE only combat droids lose sight of the fact that no one is going to force them to take up a combat droid and run into combat with it. Those in the crafter-DE camp can continue to gather resources, craft, and sell just as before. Those of us who would like a taste of something a little different while still crafting would be able to do so. I haven't read a single thread where it has been suggested that all combat droids be made DE exclusive (unless you consider that vague post by TH about combat modules that made little sense to anyone). I think it is a reasonable suggestion to, for example, introduce 3 or 4 more combat droids to the line-up and having 1 of them usable only by DEs of a sufficently high level to thwart dabblers.
DE is not a combat class because it is artisan based. Fine. CH is scout based and scout is not a combat class. It comes with no inherent weapon certs. Rather than craft their pets, they find and tame them. Despite the obvious differences and my personal distaste for the CH profession, there are similarities.
DE cannot be rightfully compared to other artisan-based crafting classes either though. Our creations are not inanimate objects and lumping us into the same boat as tailors and armorsmiths does not serve us at all.
In the short term, no, it would not effect those who want to be crafters, but it would in the long run. Assuming DE's got DE-only combat droids, you would see an increase in the numbers of DE's, not a bad thing. The problem arises with the fact that most of these newcomers (which would be a significant number in comarison to the existing DE's) would view DE as a combat pet class, since that is what they entered it for. They will complain that there aren't enough DE combat droids or they're not strong enough, whatever. It is the Dev's job to listen to their customers (to an extent) and one of two possibilities will happen. Either they will work carefully on balancing DE pets and making them stronger (which takes away from time that needs to be spent making us more useful in a utility sense) or, decide to not try and split the time, and kill off the utility portion alltogether and create an essentiallynew combat pet class focused on droids out of DE. I don't want to see either of these happen, as that would most definately hurt my ability to be a crafter.
We really need to settle this idea as to what makes CH a combat class. A combat class isn't defined by what you need to get it (otherwise marksman wouldn't be a combat class, since you don't need any combat skills to get it). What defines a combat class is its primary function. Right now CH's have no other function besides combat. Even with mounts their primary function will be combat by far (I believe the vast majority of CH's won't bother with mounts, other than one for themself and one for their friends). This primary function is what makes them a combat class.
DE's can be rightfully compared to artisan-based classes. Yes, droids are life, not just object, in logical terms that is. In game terms, droids are a tool, they help players, they make their life easier, or just bring them happiness, just as any other crafter does.
Jenden Morn - Master Droid Engineer - Mos Espa, Tarquinas
Owner, Operator, and Founder of DarkStar Inc.
EricTheGreat wrote:
More efficient maybe, but harder also. I doubt many MDE's would agree with you about giving up master artisan.
Maybe they should try it sometime. I find it much easier to just notice I'm running low on parts, send an email to my MA collegue, and have my shop full of crates next time I stop by (we've done enough distance he just drops them off in my shop and I pay him whenever I get back). I don't like making more parts than I have to, as I already tend to run all three of my factories non-stop.
I'm going to take time to read this whole thread later and post a more useful post but I wanted to add that I am entirely out of skill points, with master artisan, master DE, master merchant and novice pistoleer. I really wanted to do smuggler dirty fighting IV and master pistoleer (a new path to keep me interested for some time) But the only way is to give up merchant and artisan (never give up DE!). Being in a guild, I know I could buy the parts in bulk, and once I'm established I may have to give up Artisan. But it would definitely be a hard thing to do... Being that I want to keep merchant for player cities (marketplace and freespace vendors etc) That would only give me surveying and dom arts to give up, which surveying I sort of need, and giving up Domestic Arts wouldn't give me many points to begin with. It's quite a conundrum for a Merchant oritented DE to give up Artisan, but I fear it just may not be worth it to go a combat route right now.
That is, unless they give us more skill points with the space expansion, (which I assume is why they're waiting so long to give us Droidekas... the Expansion needs content!)
Ramble Ramble Ramble...
Jenden wrote:
In the minds of the devs and many of the players I've talked to its more a matter of pets taking the place of grouping and teamwork (this is a MMORPG, part if the idea is to form groups with other players, not pets)
Agreed, tho' that's why I said I think it's both... and the pet vs. player group issue is being addressed in the next publish.
I could see that, though I thinkanything you do involving pets and combat droids will screw with the game balance, its just what minimizes it.
That's my point regarding limiting the certs on any high-end combat droids, if there will be such a thing, to a single "non-combat" profession in the same way that high-end creature pets are certed to CH's who have no combat skills in thier tree. It limits the impact on game balance to the minimum.
No, I was referring to the fact that we are a crafting profession in that we sell usefull products to all the other characters in the galaxy. It would be more equivalent to saying its combining weaponsmiths and CH's. If you took out all the utility droids we can make, then it wouldn't create balance issues, but you can't.
That "usefull" part is currently debatable.Two orthree working, usefull modules do not make a profession... but I continue to be an incurable optimist. Still... how many DE's here can honestly claim to compete in saleswith the weaponcrafters and armorcrafters on their servers? Hell, even my friend the Novice tailor outsells me. If it wasn't for the commodities market, I'd be running around in a barrel, wielding a slingshot.
Even should our utility droids and modules be reworked and the cluster-bug fixed, we won't have the market that other crafting professions have. Utility (non-combat) droids never wear out, can't command high prices, and don't sell in high quantities.
But that's really another topic.
I don't think that CH's training mounts would differ them enough to justify both professions, they would still be essentially the same thing.
The difference is in availability, relative power, and atmosphere. Droids can easily be rebuilt and replaced (resources notwithstanding), so shouldn't be quite at the same level as a creature pet... but they're a far more "starwarsy" choice. And that IS a valid argument. Perhaps the key is in allowing DE's to field more lesser droids rather than a single more powerful one. Either way, having more than one pet profession in the game doesn't upset balance as long as the gratest benefits of that profession are limited to the highest levels.
Grimjakk wrote:
That "usefull" part is currently debatable.Two orthree working, usefull modules do not make a profession... but I continue to be an incurable optimist. Still... how many DE's here can honestly claim to compete in saleswith the weaponcrafters and armorcrafters on their servers? Hell, even my friend the Novice tailor outsells me. If it wasn't for the commodities market, I'd be running around in a barrel, wielding a slingshot.
Even should our utility droids and modules be reworked and the cluster-bug fixed, we won't have the market that other crafting professions have. Utility (non-combat) droids never wear out, can't command high prices, and don't sell in high quantities.
But that's really another topic.
I think that if the devs focused on new modules instead of combat droids we would see much more getting done, as there would be much less code and new things to work into the system. As it is its debateable as to whether you can do more business than another crafting profession, and with an increase in the number/uses of modules I think you could easily outsell other crafting professions. Though I think part of the problem some are having with droid sales is the preconception that droids are all broken and don't work. If you take the time to explain to someone that they do work and can be extroardinarily useful, you tend to get more sales. Again, it will vary by servers and I haven't seen any of the kinds of problems others are complaining about so I can't say exactly. Also, the point of no decay or replacement necessary does need to be addressed, and I think working on fixing all this before we do anything with combat droids could change some opinions.
Jenden Morn - Master Droid Engineer - Mos Espa, Tarquinas
Owner, Operator, and Founder of DarkStar Inc.
IsaacPalinander wrote:
I guess my problem with all of this is that the camp of DEs that do not want DE only combat droids lose sight of the fact that no one is going to force them to take up a combat droid and run into combat with it. Those in the crafter-DE camp can continue to gather resources, craft, and sell just as before. Those of us who would like a taste of something a little different while still crafting would be able to do so. I haven't read a single thread where it has been suggested that all combat droids be made DE exclusive (unless you consider that vague post by TH about combat modules that made little sense to anyone). I think it is a reasonable suggestion to, for example, introduce 3 or 4 more combat droids to the line-up and having 1 of them usable only by DEs of a sufficently high level to thwart dabblers.
DE is not a combat class because it is artisan based. Fine. CH is scout based and scout is not a combat class. It comes with no inherent weapon certs. Rather than craft their pets, they find and tame them. Despite the obvious differences and my personal distaste for the CH profession, there are similarities.
DE cannot be rightfully compared to other artisan-based crafting classes either though. Our creations are not inanimate objects and lumping us into the same boat as tailors and armorsmiths does not serve us at all.
Isaac,
Respectfully, I don't think one needs to justify why someone can't have a DE-only combat droid if proper justification for having one isn't given first. So far the only argument I've heard is "we should have non-DE combat droids so that there can be more powerful droids that won't wreck the game". This argument relies on the assumption that this game needs droids with that much more power. If there is no need for more powerful droids which would end up ruining the game if they weren't DE-only then there's no point in making them. It's simpler to just make more powerful droids in a way that won't wreck the game and won't require that DE restriction.
I think the desire is really so that there can be droids to fill the same niche as creatures. The state of creatures now looks like it was a big mistake, one which is being delt with slowly. I think the people who want creature-quality droids are the ones who want to be as succesful as Creature Handlers in combat and missions, and make droids at the same time. I think that's asking for candy. There's no reason to give it to you except that you want it, and that Creature Handlers have their candy even though it's being slowly taken away from them. This game doesn't need more combat companions, but that is my opinion.
DE is not a combat profession now, and your suggestion gives people a reason to see it as one. It is more disruptive to change the nature of a profession than to keep it the way it is. That it won't affect the people who just want to craft is notan easyclaim, considering we don't really know what will happen if it does change. Perhaps if you could give some convincing reasons why it is needed you will change some minds, because otherwise you are asking for special treatment without justification.
It is the dev's job to respond to player needs... a job they have yet to do in any regard. 1 (count them 1 droid, not plural) unique combat droid in the Master box will not draw the dabblers in any appreciable or meaningful number.
I find it interesting also Jenden that you seem to think that your opinion is more reasonable and valid than everyone else's who has tried to post here. Back off a little there chief and give everyone some room to breathe. The market for MA parts on your server does not in any way equate to the market for MA parts on another. There is plenty of room for open debate without your pouncing on every idea that's posted here.
Jenden wrote:
As it is its debateable as to whether you can do more business than another crafting profession, and with an increase in the number/uses of modules I think you could easily outsell other crafting professions.
Bartender, I'll have whatever he's drinking... make it a double. 
Tell ya the truth, the more I think about it, I could live with say a max CL-20 combat droid (stormcommando level, if I remember correctly) available to the general public (Elite Novice and beyond) if DE's were give CL certs in a similar fashion to CH's that allowed a Master to pull out 3 of these bad boys and one mount.
Just a random thought...