Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Fundamental Question Concerning the DE-only Combat Droids Concept
Airlik wrote:
think a MDE-only combat droid is silly. That's like a weaponsmith saying there should be a weapon only he can use (in fact it's quite the opposite - most of the stuff a MWS produces he cannot actually use)!
This is at the core of what I'm asking in this thread. If droid engineers can have their cake and eat it too, why not other professions? Shouldn't a WS then be auto-certified to use all this weapons? Should not an AS be able to wear all his crafted composite armor without worries of enbrumbrace? This assumes that the DE-only droids will be significantly more valuable than the non-DE ones (either in terms of being a unique droid chasis or having significantly better combat capabilities). If they are only marginally more valuable, then the argument is mute, because frankly nobody will care.
In other words, when people start seeing the DE-only combat droids, they will either yell "I want one" or be saying "me too" for a special out-of-profession bonus. SOE has to decide if they want to deal with the conseequences of that.
IsaacPalinander wrote:
What will people think of these DE-only droids? The same thing that non-commandos think of the flamethrower or non-high level CHs think of the Graul Mauler. It's no different. If you master an elite profession you should have access to unique items. Period.
You do have access to something unique, the ability to create master level droids. Not everything in this game revolves around combat, if you want unique combat abilities then become a combat profession. And before its said that why shouldn't DE be a combat profession, the fact of the matter right now is that it isn't, some may want to turn it into a combat profession, but that would be a whole different argument.
Jenden Morn - Master Droid Engineer - Mos Espa, Tarquinas
Owner, Operator, and Founder of DarkStar Inc.
Jenden wrote:
Grimjakk wrote:
Actually, he's ignored several "game balance" questions... heh.
For example...regarding his claim that DE's are a "non-combat class", he ignores the fact that a MasterDE may have up to 158 points invested in combat professions. Does the fact that CH's have no weapon skills in their own tree make THEM a "non-combat class"?
Wouldn't comparable MDE-only droids serve the same function for us?
Not ignored, just didn't see, I do do other things besides sit on the forums. There's a fundamental difference between creature pets and droids. It is fairly obvious that the primary purpose of pets is combat, as they can't do anything else. It is equally as obvious that droids primary purpose IN THIS GAME (I'm not getting into any continuity stuff here) is, right now at least, not combat. If DE had been set up as a combat class, not a crafting class, then you could use this argument, but it wasn't.
Jenden Morn - Master Droid Engineer - Mos Espa, Tarquinas
Owner, Operator, and Founder of DarkStar Inc.
What?!? Other things to do? BLASPHEMER! (cough)
Seriously tho', the point of the plan (and the bits Sintrosi dropped from the DE dev who we should be getting back after the next publish) is that with the inclusion of more combat droids, the focus of droids are changing. "Right now" is irrelevant.
Part of the whole reason forthe "Poké-Wars" is that creature pets have been the only combat pet available. Most people when asked have said that using droids would be more appropriate ("StarWarsy") but they haven't had that option.
The Devsseem to be trying toween the player base off of pet-dependency via the Brawler fixes andpet limits/nerfs, and lead the high-end gameback to a more social-group mode, healthier for the long term life of the game. And to answer the call for more "StarWarsy" pets,they're going to give us the long-promised new combat droids (though I have to note the "plan" said nothing about new chassis
).
So... again, given that droids ARE going to be combat pets,in exactly the same way that creature pets have been, the issue of maintaining general game balance comes up. Releasing high-end droids into the general population is just going to undo all the Poké-fixes they're implementing, as the CH dabblers will just substitute their CL-whatever "shielded droidekas" for whatever they were using before. I don't see that happening. GIVEN THE ASSUMPTION THAT THERE WILL BE HIGH-END COMBAT DROIDS, they must be certed to a single profession for the same balance reasons that Rancors and Graul Maulerswill be certed only to high level CH's.
And unless they institute a "Droid Handler" profession, I can't think of a more appropriate one to carry the certs than the class that designs, builds, and maintains them.
Eutock's problem of having people bombard him with tells or whatnot of orders to buy this MDE only droid is ridiculous.
How hard is it to say "No" ? or "No, sorry but only MDEs can use it."
I say something similar when noobies ask me for "teh darth maul droides"
Grimjakk wrote:
Seriously tho', the point of the plan (and the bits Sintrosi dropped from the DE dev who we should be getting back after the next publish) is that with the inclusion of more combat droids, the focus of droids are changing. "Right now" is irrelevant.
I know they talked about adding more combat droids but I don't recall them saying anything about changing the focus of the DE profession. If I missed it somewhere please post the link and I'll read over it. (and if you think that was sarcasm, no, I know I don't see everything, I am just going by what I do see).
And unless they institute a "Droid Handler" profession, I can't think of a more appropriate one to carry the certs than the class that designs, builds, and maintains them.
That is the core of the problem with higher level combat droids. Who should be able to use them? Certainly not everyone, that would just increase pet wars (making them droid pets instead of creature pets doesn't solve the problem). Certing them to other combat professions would be hard to justify (unless you wanted to appeal to the argument that a cert. would be more of a legal allowance to use the droid, then they should be certed to commando, BH, or some other military type profession). Certing them to DE's causes serious balance issues, as essentially you are giving one profession (and a profession that takes the least skill points possible at that) the abilities of two. The only way this would work is to take away every non-combat function of DE's and turn them quite literally into CH clones, at which point you have two identicle professions, very wasteful.
Jenden Morn - Master Droid Engineer - Mos Espa, Tarquinas
Owner, Operator, and Founder of DarkStar Inc.
Jenden wrote:
(and a profession that takes the least skill points possible at that)
Jenden you should know, as everyone here should know, that to be a serious DE you have to have master artisan. If youre going to talk about skill points, you have to add in master artisan.
And I dont think we would become CH clones because our combat droids would be crappy compared to a MCH pet.
I once proposed mind encumberance for droids as a way of limiting those at the highest combat levels who could be wearing armor to not use the droids. But nobody seemed to like that idea., though it was BRILLIANT! I dont want pet wars!
I share the opinion of everyone who wants DE to be able to sell everything it makes to anyone who has a use for the item. I think Droid Engineer should be more similar to Architect, Weaponsmith and Armoursmith, than to Creature Handler. I'll be Creature Handlers make most of their money off of missions, and not selling the pets they train. This will be even more the case as the pets they can sell to non-CH will be less powerful soon. A crafting profession makes its money off of what it produces. Money off of missions should be a side-venture.
I frankly consider the comparison between CH and DE to be unfair, considering how limited CH are in range of abilities and the fact they will only be able to sell level 10 creatures to non-CHs. We should not be competing in the same sphere as them (ie: making ubber pets only they can use). The fact that we will be able to have more droids and more than 1 droid out is enough of a perk. What's the point to have high level droids that only we can use, except to compete with CH? I don't think it's fair to them.
It's ridiculous to say that I believe this because I like to step on Droid Engineers. I am a Droid Engineermyself and I definitely don't like shooting myself in the foot. If you want a combat companion only you can use,you can be a Creature Handler. If you want to become rich off of missions and not sales, be a Creature Handler. If you want to sell merchandise for profit, stop doing missions and start crafting. If you really want to give Droid Engineers a break, help come up with ideas that will make us rich off of sales to thepublic. We should be working on marketability and not missions viability. Don't make any of the few new droids we get to be unsellable to non-Droid Engineers. That does cut into our business.
Jenden wrote:
I know they talked about adding more combat droids but I don't recall them saying anything about changing the focus of the DE profession. If I missed it somewhere please post the link and I'll read over it. (and if you think that was sarcasm, no, I know I don't see everything, I am just going by what I do see).
Easily done. (If I don't screw up the HTML 
)
What I know post from Sintrosi
EricTheGreat wrote:
Jenden wrote:
(and a profession that takes the least skill points possible at that)
Jenden you should know, as everyone here should know, that to be a serious DE you have to have master artisan. If youre going to talk about skill points, you have to add in master artisan.
And I dont think we would become CH clones because our combat droids would be crappy compared to a MCH pet.
I once proposed mind encumberance for droids as a way of limiting those at the highest combat levels who could be wearing armor to not use the droids. But nobody seemed to like that idea., though it was BRILLIANT! I dont want pet wars!
92 skill points minimum to become a Master Droid Engineer, true.
106 minimum to become a Master Creature Handler.
To be an effective DE though, you must be a Master Artisan. 140 points.
Sorry, but that argument won't really fly. 
EricTheGreat wrote:
Eutock's problem of having people bombard him with tells or whatnot of orders to buy this MDE only droid is ridiculous.
How hard is it to say "No" ? or "No, sorry but only MDEs can use it."
It's not hard at all to say no, you'll just be saying it a whole lot of times.
My point was not that saying "No" will be difficult, just a headache. The point's intent though was not an end unto itself. Instead it was a launchboard to the community pressure problem to get those cool-looking wonderful new droid frames for everyone.
You know what's really a headache?
Taking 5 mins to explain to someone how to program their droid.
What's even more of a headache?
Spending another 5 mins telling them how to name it.
/cry
Which is exactly why I never make droids to order, only for medics or people willing to pay above market value.
Jenden wrote:
That is the core of the problem with higher level combat droids. Who should be able to use them? Certainly not everyone, that would just increase pet wars (making them droid pets instead of creature pets doesn't solve the problem).
In the minds of most posters I've read in other forums, responding to the "Poké-War" issue, its not the pet so much as the lack of "StarWarsiness" of the creature. I think its both, but that's being dealt with in the new publish.
Certing them to other combat professions would be hard to justify (unless you wanted to appeal to the argument that a cert. would be more of a legal allowance to use the droid, then they should be certed to commando, BH, or some other military type profession).
Game balance trumps the "legal allowance" argument, tho' that would be a great RP hook.
Certing them to DE's causes serious balance issues, as essentially you are giving one profession (and a profession that takes the least skill points possible at that) the abilities of two.
If you're referring to the BE and CH proffessions, the BE profession is (or perhaps should be) more focused onpet by-products (tissues and buffs), mounts,and enhanced pets. non-dabbling CH's "roll their own" already, and after the next publish there will be far fewer dabblers to sell BE-engineered pets to. I think they need some dev-love too, but that shouldn't affect our issues.
The only way this would work is to take away every non-combat function of DE's and turn them quite literally into CH clones, at which point you have two identicle professions, very wasteful.
Don't CH's tame and train their own pets? Aren't they going to be the exclusive source of trained mounts? If CH's are losing that ability, and I just missed that post, then you have a point. Otherwise...
Grimjakk wrote:
92 skill points minimum to become a Master Droid Engineer, true.
106 minimum to become a Master Creature Handler.
To be an effective DE though, you must be a Master Artisan. 140 points.
Sorry, but that argument won't really fly.
Not true, master artisan DE is less efficient than non-MA. It is much easier to buy bulk parts (couple k at a time) than make them yourself, more efficient too. Yes, that means you have to charge a little bit more per droid, but from most of the prices I've seen, you could easily absorb that cost and still make your credits hand over fist off each droid. Another solution is to just buy the schematics, not that inconvenient if you buy enough for a couple weeks worth at a time.
Jenden Morn - Master Droid Engineer - Mos Espa, Tarquinas
Owner, Operator, and Founder of DarkStar Inc.