Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Combat Droid Compromise
I think making MA a requirement is one option. I think any of the four branches of marksman is good, perhaps brawler as well.
duncje wrote:
Kollos, I really think that DE is unbalanced when you compare it to other crafting professions. We do not have as large a market for our wares as Armorsmiths, Weaponsmiths, Architects, or even Chefs (especially with the fixes for Chef on Test). Then factor in the massive reliance on MA parts to craft our droids. This makes DE severely handicapped as a crafting class. So the devs either need to add more utility (which would be my first choice, but it seems the devs are focused on combat droids) to make droids more useful and marketable to people, or turn DE into a hybrid profession and allow us to control the combat droids. And I did suggest making it cost more skillpoints to become a DE if it were to become a hybrid profession, like making MA a requirement for DE or 0004 Marksman.
duncje wrote:
Kollos, I really think that DE is unbalanced when you compare it to other crafting professions. We do not have as large a market for our wares as Armorsmiths, Weaponsmiths, Architects, or even Chefs (especially with the fixes for Chef on Test). Then factor in the massive reliance on MA parts to craft our droids. This makes DE severely handicapped as a crafting class. So the devs either need to add more utility (which would be my first choice, but it seems the devs are focused on combat droids) to make droids more useful and marketable to people, or turn DE into a hybrid profession and allow us to control the combat droids. And I did suggest making it cost more skillpoints to become a DE if it were to become a hybrid profession, like making MA a requirement for DE or 0004 Marksman.
I hear what you're saying, but I believe that the profession itself is not unbalanced as designed. It's unbalanced as implemented, meaning that the bugs are what causes us to appear to be too weak overall.
Take Level 6 Medical modules as an example. Those give a 10% bonus to healing! Considering how much people will pay for a 10% bonus in combat, it seems to me that our Medical modules should be a pretty good product. And they are, except for this little problem that they all have exactly the same quality no matter who makes them or which resources they use. Experimentation works just fine, but quality is irrelevant. Fix that and suddenly Droid Engineers would be able to compete with each other based on quality.
I think we definitely need more utility modules, but even if more were added the effect would be minimal unless quality also became relevant. Similarly, they can add all the combat droids in the world and we won't see any real appreciable increase in the droid market simply because they will all be identical.
Do you really think that people would pay 1 million credits for a weapon if EVERYONE could make exactly the same weapons? Not a chance. They only pay that much because not everyone can make them. We need that same differentiation in order to reach our full as-designed potential as a crafting profession.
Kollos, I really think that you underestimate how unbalanced our profession really is. To be an effective combatant, you need weapons and armor. Food is almost a prerequisite as spice/food is needed to wear most armors. Harvesters are needed by every profession that does even minor amounts of crafting. Nobody needs our products, save the BH's, who, due to a bug, don't need to buy seekers once they reach a certain point. And doctors for sure use our product, but by no means do they need to. And doctors are a small drop in the pond compared to combatants, or every profession that has to craft. There is no absolute need for our products, or even a percieved need. While having quality matter will help, it will by no means fix all that ails the DE. Need and percieved need for droids will fix DE.
Kollos wrote:
duncje wrote:
Kollos, I really think that DE is unbalanced when you compare it to other crafting professions. We do not have as large a market for our wares as Armorsmiths, Weaponsmiths, Architects, or even Chefs (especially with the fixes for Chef on Test). Then factor in the massive reliance on MA parts to craft our droids. This makes DE severely handicapped as a crafting class. So the devs either need to add more utility (which would be my first choice, but it seems the devs are focused on combat droids) to make droids more useful and marketable to people, or turn DE into a hybrid profession and allow us to control the combat droids. And I did suggest making it cost more skillpoints to become a DE if it were to become a hybrid profession, like making MA a requirement for DE or 0004 Marksman.
I hear what you're saying, but I believe that the profession itself is not unbalanced as designed. It's unbalanced as implemented, meaning that the bugs are what causes us to appear to be too weak overall.
Take Level 6 Medical modules as an example. Those give a 10% bonus to healing! Considering how much people will pay for a 10% bonus in combat, it seems to me that our Medical modules should be a pretty good product. And they are, except for this little problem that they all have exactly the same quality no matter who makes them or which resources they use. Experimentation works just fine, but quality is irrelevant. Fix that and suddenly Droid Engineers would be able to compete with each other based on quality.
I think we definitely need more utility modules, but even if more were added the effect would be minimal unless quality also became relevant. Similarly, they can add all the combat droids in the world and we won't see any real appreciable increase in the droid market simply because they will all be identical.
Do you really think that people would pay 1 million credits for a weapon if EVERYONE could make exactly the same weapons? Not a chance. They only pay that much because not everyone can make them. We need that same differentiation in order to reach our full as-designed potential as a crafting profession.
Kollos, I disrespect your narrow view. If you want to be a non combat crafter Fine. But dont Hobble Us, for your limitations. The plan as presented will not weaken your crafting abilities.
I became a droid engineer so I could make myself, the best droids I that I could make. (and to make some for others as well) To Fight for me! (and to do other stuff i otherwise couldnt with my limited skill points.)
I think that combat balance does matter. I, in fact thing all proffessionsshould have some avenue for combat worthyness. Some way that if someone wants to be XXX proffession they can do it And, have a chance at being a passible combatant as well. Now, sure someone Can, go all craft/merchant or all entertainment/tialor, Or Whatever. But having provision in thier proffession for combat ability does not Hurt them !
Particularly DEs and Combat droids, Its a little more intuitive than entertainer or tailor. If You dont want Combat !, , You dont have to pursue it ! We hurtin ya if we do ? You can use the droid cert branch to have more droid out. To use later high level droids of a more civil nature. to have more vbariety of droids in your data pad.
It wouldnt hurt for DEs to be as powerfull (combat wise) as CHs. If they had to get master arts box to have full cert. But I would settle for just somewhat as powerfull in pure kill power, if we had some other form of power. like maby ability to have some kind of doctor droid out in combat or somthing. Whatever. Long hard thing to figgure out. But it starts with putting certs where DEs already have them, and others can get them without That much trouble.
Kollos wrote:
SWGartisan wrote:
If he thinks DE's are already powerful enoughin combat (with our overly huge commitment to crafting/merchant skills) - please let me know what game he is playing, I'd like to try it.
SWGartisan, you just demonstrated the problem perfectly. You, and apparently many other people, seem to think that balance only means combat balance. That is simply not true. And until you understand that, you're just going to get more and more frustrated by the decisions that the Devs make.
Balance means that the classes need to be equally desirable in some way. Droid Engineer, like Weaponsmith or Armorsmith, is not a combat class. Our desirability comes from the fact that we craft things and sell them to others. We are part of the economic engine of the game, not the combat engine.
If you take a crafting profession and add significant combat abilities, you throw the overall balance out of whack. Droid Engineer would suddenly become more desirable than any other class because it would be part of BOTH engines. The Devs simply are not going to allow that to happen.
So, if you want to be able to both craft and use new, higher level combat droids, you're going to have to come up with some sort of system that forces even Droid Engineers to pay for that ability. You cannot simply attach a few certs to the existing Droid Engineer tree because that would be giving Droid Engineers a new ability for free.
And you just ignored the fact we already have to allocate more skill points than any other crafting profession by needing Master Artisan to be a Droid Engineer. I have yet to meet a DE without Master Artisan too.
This plan does balance it out, the other crafters can take Novice DE and the combat DE tree and STILL use less skill points than a Master DE, but have the same combat capabilities.
Not letting Droid Engineers USE the droids they sell already PRE-PROGRAMMED does not make any sense.
Boeda wrote:
Kollos, I disrespect your narrow view. If you want to be a non combat crafter Fine. But dont Hobble Us, for your limitations. The plan as presented will not weaken your crafting abilities.
Rogue1970 wrote:
And you just ignored the fact we already have to allocate more skill points than any other crafting profession by needing Master Artisan to be a Droid Engineer. I have yet to meet a DE without Master Artisan too.
This plan does balance it out, the other crafters can take Novice DE and the combat DE tree and STILL use less skill points than a Master DE, but have the same combat capabilities.
Not letting Droid Engineers USE the droids they sell already PRE-PROGRAMMED does not make any sense.
Rogue,
I think if it were done this way, I would be like YEAH!
But Kollos is right...sort of, your penalties to balance the profession involve increases in experience and difficulty to attain that experience. This game has some serious power players in, more than I have seen in anygame. More exp and difficulty gaining that xp for the proffesion you propose would mean a challenge, not a deterrant. The fact that it is super hard but the payoff would most certainly make you an elite baddass, would still have the power gamers comming in droves.
But the real point is that the devs only see balance in relation to how many skill points are expended to attain elite baddassdom.
However I hope I am wrong cause playing your version of DE would be super fun!
Balance you say ? ok, lets talk Balance ! lets talk
World Wide Balance !
Who needs balance ? 'Combat classes can be balanced by thier own combat abilities. Or, even with imbedded or optional crature/droid(pet) 'cert's. Whoes left ?
Craftters and entertainers ! lets start with crafters.
Crafters, could make use of (stackable) droid certs, in the master arts box, and in a branch of the DE tree. Half have E4 as prerequisits. Others tend to have it.All have novice artisan. Other balances could be found to perk tailors and chefs, a bit, if nessisary or even WS and AS to compensate for DE master box certs that DEs deserve for controlling thier own creations. (subjectively)
And as to needing more skillpoints. Why would DEs need to spend more skillpoints to be as powerfull as CHs ?
With this sytems, a max droid cert would take master artisan and master DE. 28 points and a master box More than CHs !
(and this avoids the IMPOSSIBILITY (with existing DEs) of reqireing the master arts for DE novice) Why require it fior DE, just require it for max droid Cert!
This is all about compromise.
Your argument does give a valid point, changethe 3 remaining Droid Engineer crafting trees to require Master Artisan andthe crafting xp points. This makes Master a necessity for DEs in order to even be crafters.
Additional skill points have now become required balancing the cost of the added combat ability.
I cant see, how they cant see, that the points one puts in DE for ZERO combat advantage that any body else cant have, by buying a probot is not imbalanced on the lean side, in the first place.
Admittedly all crafters are in the same boat. As are entertainer to a large extent. (entertainers Do get mild evasion perks of some sort). And,, Admitedly, points spent in crafts should not afford as much combat ability as pure combat skills. But, for balance they should provide some., almost as much maby.
This plan, is just about perfect in 3 ways.
It gives droid certs to DEs at a cost that is greater than the skillpoint cost of CHs. So Combat droids could be up to as powerfull as CH pets without rocking the boat too much. And only master DEs like master CHs will have a full cert. (except unless you want to sprinkle some certs around other proffessions. Still an option)
It provides worth to many skillpoints, crafters in general have spent already persuing thier crafts. To Crafters who have no combat advantages, at all either, from thier crafting skillpoints, that thier customers dont have. Crafters in general are half way to droid certs to begin with.
It, provides a relatively easy route Arts/E4, and 'DC' branch of DE, for all players to have limited droid certs. and be customers for intermediate and maby higher droids from DEs. a/o the master arts box depending on the whim of the individual. These can be chosen in such a way as to not be innapropriate for a dabbleable branch.
- - - - - - - -
How,, Can They Say it Has to be a Seperate Proffession, Not to be imbalanced ??? ! ! !
This leaves some tweeking to do in the other crafts to match the DE balanve in different ways. { Remember a chance at combat ability, does not obligate one to pursue it. And one Will Allways have more non combat options iif they forsake combat. (not spend any points on other combat support functions) }