Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Combat Droid Compromise
Gribnitz wrote:
I like Drashk's proposal a lot better. How is a bounty hunter ever supposed to get a decent droid if they have to climb up the engineering tree and then the drioid engineer tree? All this proposal does is reverse the CH mess into a DH mess. You will see tons of people with "Novice Droid Engineer" over thier heads tugging a chain of droids behind them.
With the Drashk proposal at least anyone has a chance of owning a slightly better droid for a small expenditure in skill points. Most people can afford a few extra skill points to "upgrade" toa slightly better combat droid. If we don't want to see 40% of the player base as "novice droid engineer", Drashk's proposal is the only way to go.
Certs are not going to happen. We all know that. The Devs want Balance and a skill point investment to compensate for the extra power. You chose BH, you have your power from that tree.
Others may choose to dabble in DE to get the better Combta droids. They won't get to be Bounty Hunters - do you think they should get certed for your power too?
40% of the player base is Novice Medic or Novice Scout now. So, whats your point there?
If the camp requirement to call mounts is dumped, as we're being told, that frees those skill points up for more droid user wannabees too.
Most people want more Droids out,this is Star Warssy for all of us - get over it. Droids all need to be useable by a majority of the player base, thats why they are called droids not pets.
It's easier to control a droid than a pet, so fewer skill points need to be required to fully use the high level ones. We all seem to agree that some skill points need to be required no matter what.
SWGartisan wrote:
Great idea Rogue!
I hope the Devs see this.
Thanks
Im totally against the idea of droids with CLs > 15 - droids arent tough on there own, even a droideka is weak if you get in close enough to it.
This is why im so against the DH profession - it will either be so weak that it wont be worth the effort or so powerful that it will make CH look weak and pathetic.
Droids as numbers however are much more effective and i think this is what the devs should consider - Its not what a droid brings to the individual on the battlefieldthats important (the CH pets do that pretty well already) its what the droids bring to a group that will shine through more. That and the endless utilities the droids bring to an individual will make droids commonplace throughout the SWG universe.
The two professions that will best suite control of multiple droids is the droid engineer and the squad leader.
It's a nice idea, though it has been mentioned several times before. And it still won't work.
You're adding additional combat skills to an existing profession - Droid Engineer - without any additional cost. That makes Droid Engineers more powerful overall, and therefore unbalances the professions in favor of Droid Engineers. This is exactly what the Devs are trying to avoid, so they'll never accept this idea.
Face it, we're not going to get anything for free, not even "low level" combat droids in the CL 20 range. The Devs have decided that CL 10 is the max anyone can have without spending time, experience, and skill points. Period. Don't try to wiggle around it because it really seems to be a hard cap as far as they're concerned.
This is why Drashk's "mini-profession" is probably the most workable solution. I understand that Droid Engineers should be able to use every droid they make - I'm in that camp as well - but from a game design point of view it just isn't feasible if we want combat droids higher than CL 10.
Kollos wrote:
It's a nice idea, though it has been mentioned several times before. And it still won't work.
You're adding additional combat skills to an existing profession - Droid Engineer - without any additional cost. That makes Droid Engineers more powerful overall, and therefore unbalances the professions in favor of Droid Engineers. This is exactly what the Devs are trying to avoid, so they'll never accept this idea.
Excuse me a second. I'm rying to find the skills in my Droid Engineer tree that give me power? Can you point them out, please? 
How can this idea overpower a weakling? The developers are trying to avoid overpowering the COMBAT classes....
SWGartisan wrote:
Kollos wrote:
It's a nice idea, though it has been mentioned several times before. And it still won't work.
You're adding additional combat skills to an existing profession - Droid Engineer - without any additional cost. That makes Droid Engineers more powerful overall, and therefore unbalances the professions in favor of Droid Engineers. This is exactly what the Devs are trying to avoid, so they'll never accept this idea.
Excuse me a second. I'm rying to find the skills in my Droid Engineer tree that give me power? Can you point them out, please?
Kollos argument needs to be addressed. Its not impossible. Come up with the numbers.
Numbers? You mean skill point cost right? Ok, lets compare Weaponsmith, Armorsmith and Architect.
Last I heard none of them were tied to Master Artisan, basically requiring it to be a DE. They have 2 (or 3) whole trees of skills and a Master boxthey don't necessarily need, that we have to have. They already have an advantage over us. Why not balance it? If they want DC capabilities, they can learn Novice DE and the 4 boxes of the Commander tree in DE - and they still have more skill points available than we do.
If he thinks DE's are already powerful enoughin combat (with our overly huge commitment to crafting/merchant skills) - please let me know what game he is playing, I'd like to try it.
This idea would not overpower DEs, it would bring us in line with the other crafters in being able to defend ourselves. No messy cert system benefiting combat classes mainly, andenough expense in skill points to curb theUber combat types some if they want Droid power too.
I like it.
Kollos wrote:
It's a nice idea, though it has been mentioned several times before. And it still won't work.
It will work, if it was thought through correctly, and it probably would be simpler than making an entirely new profession or "mini profession"
You're adding additional combat skills to an existing profession - Droid Engineer - without any additional cost. That makes Droid Engineers more powerful overall, and therefore unbalances the professions in favor of Droid Engineers. This is exactly what the Devs are trying to avoid, so they'll never accept this idea.
The first thing to realize here is that you're adding combat skills to a profession that doesn't have any. This effectively would put DE in the "hybrid profession" class like Smuggler. You can't overpower a non-combat class by adding some combat skills. DE's would have some combat skills, though not near as powerful as an elite combat profession would have at master (This would be assured by limiting the CL of droids.)
Face it, we're not going to get anything for free, not even "low level" combat droids in the CL 20 range. The Devs have decided that CL 10 is the max anyone can have without spending time, experience, and skill points. Period. Don't try to wiggle around it because it really seems to be a hard cap as far as they're concerned.
We're not getting them for free, we're paying for them with the skill points we've already used in the DE tree. Time, experience, and skill points would be the time, experience and skill points already used in climbing the DE tree. If this isn't enough, then possibly add 0004 Marksman (or MA) as a prerequisite for DE, since most hybrid professions have multiple skill requirements.
This is why Drashk's "mini-profession" is probably the most workable solution. I understand that Droid Engineers should be able to use every droid they make - I'm in that camp as well - but from a game design point of view it just isn't feasible if we want combat droids higher than CL 10.
Honestly, I think making DE a hybrid profession is the more workable solution,this allows DE's to use what they craft, as well as letting others use them, if they are willing to spend the additional skill points to do so. The devs are afraid of "uber templates", but the requisite skill point cost involved in this solution would mean a combat profession would have to give some combat skills up in order to make DE, and even more if they wanted to be able to craft and use the droids.
SWGartisan wrote:
If he thinks DE's are already powerful enoughin combat (with our overly huge commitment to crafting/merchant skills) - please let me know what game he is playing, I'd like to try it.
duncje wrote:
Kollos wrote:
You're adding additional combat skills to an existing profession - Droid Engineer - without any additional cost. That makes Droid Engineers more powerful overall, and therefore unbalances the professions in favor of Droid Engineers. This is exactly what the Devs are trying to avoid, so they'll never accept this idea.
The first thing to realize here is that you're adding combat skills to a profession that doesn't have any. This effectively would put DE in the "hybrid profession" class like Smuggler. You can't overpower a non-combat class by adding some combat skills. DE's would have some combat skills, though not near as powerful as an elite combat profession would have at master (This would be assured by limiting the CL of droids.)
Don't fall into that trap - you're making the mistake of thinking that balance implies combat. It does not. Adding combat skills to a profession that does not have any clearly throws things out of balance - that profession was designed to be balanced WITHOUT combat skills.
Face it, we're not going to get anything for free, not even "low level" combat droids in the CL 20 range. The Devs have decided that CL 10 is the max anyone can have without spending time, experience, and skill points. Period. Don't try to wiggle around it because it really seems to be a hard cap as far as they're concerned.
We're not getting them for free, we're paying for them with the skill points we've already used in the DE tree. Time, experience, and skill points would be the time, experience and skill points already used in climbing the DE tree. If this isn't enough, then possibly add 0004 Marksman (or MA) as a prerequisite for DE, since most hybrid professions have multiple skill requirements.
Yes, we're getting them for free. You're adding skills and abilities to a profession without adding any cost. That's pretty much the definition of free. The time, experience, and skill points that we have already spent provided the skills and abilities that we already have. If you add more skills and abilities - combat, in this case - then you must add additional time, experience, and/or skill point costs in order to maintain balance.
I understand where you're coming from - you're saying that you think that Droid Engineers aren't balanced and that we need some sort of additional skills or abilities to become balanced. Unfortunately the Devs don't see it that way. And neither do I, really. Our profession would be quite well balanced if everything actually worked the way it appears to have been intended to work. The problem is not that we're underbalanced, the problem is that we're bugged all to hell and back.
This misunderstanding is a huge problem within the Droid Engineer community right now. Until people understand this, the frustration level is just going to keep rising.
I agree. That's why any compromise needs to be based on additional requirements (skillpoints) to be expended to get the droids. There area number of ways to do it.
Kollos wrote:
SWGartisan wrote:
If he thinks DE's are already powerful enoughin combat (with our overly huge commitment to crafting/merchant skills) - please let me know what game he is playing, I'd like to try it.
So, if you want to be able to both craft and use new, higher level combat droids, you're going to have to come up with some sort of system that forces even Droid Engineers to pay for that ability. You cannot simply attach a few certs to the existing Droid Engineer tree because that would be giving Droid Engineers a new ability for free.