Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: DEs, You Need to Make Yourselves Heard! (With a HINT from TK!)
First off, publish 8 is what has already been announced. It's unrealistic to expect we are going get the hybid solution, condition decay, and etc. in that publish. Alot of us will have to make the decision to batton down the hatches and prepare for an extended wait for the real droid invasion to happen. It's going to take me a good while to prepare for it anyway. Do you know how long it will take to stockpile 16 new specific resources in mass? I usually drop all 6 of my ER10 medium harvesters on one resource at a time and pull it up for the full resource cycle. But I expect I'll have all 16 stockpiled in mass quantities by the time we see something like the hybrid solution roll out. You guys need to decide if your willing to wait or not. I've been here since the launch and I've waited this long, so I've decided to wait as long as it takes.
Just from what I've seen so far, TK has my vote of confidence. I've read his replies here and I believe he is objectively representing the community to the best of his ability. And that's not just a mindless thumbs up. Of the three DE correspondents, only two have had my support. But I don't want to discuss that anymore. Just want to move forward. Let's just try to avoid pointing the flamethrowers in his direction. I believe the correspondent system works, but only with the right person in the position. Right now, TK is the right person for the job.
What I'm expecting are the real solutions. Not the quick and dirty throw us a bone to shut us up type of changes. The solutions that create a real and renewable market for us DE's. The solutions that give us flexibility of playstyle that let us change our activities to avoid burnout and boredom. To go through phases were we are sometimes pure crafters, sometimes pure combat, and sometimes both. Basically, the type of solutions that makes the DE profession retain players for years instead of months.
TheRealTK421 wrote:
I urge everyone to go fill out their personal top 5 issues, in the stickied thread I made. This will be the new 'issues roadmap' that supercedes what's come in the past.
/bow
AudioOrgana wrote:
TheRealTK421 wrote:
I urge everyone to go fill out their personal top 5 issues, in the stickied thread I made. This will be the new 'issues roadmap' that supercedes what's come in the past.
LOL.
TK, again, stop treating this like a "new" thing.
Okay...."revised". That better? Sheesh.
Yes, it's new to you, but this process has been going on for quite some time.
Gee...I didn't know that, Audio. Really?
It doesn't reset because the person who sends the concerns on changes.
No...it doesn't reset, but it needs to be updated/revised based on stuff that's changed since Drashk's list.
You have just proven the point that everyone in this thread has tried to tell you : we've been getting this run around for nine months, and you need to stop looking at it as a "new" slate.
It's not that the slate is new, it's that the stuff on the slate needs to be revised to reflect where the profession is 'at' currently.
You can take your time and make all your new threads that you want, but there will be few, KNOWLEDGABLE people to contribute to them if something drastic does not happen soon.
Yea, I'm concerned about the vets in-the-know dropping too but I can't personally change that in the short term. I have to focus on the larger picture...which, to me, is representing all DE issues and concerns to the Devs (in a prioritized fashion).
We know that you like your position,
You know....sometimes I don't, to be honest. I know you think I get some ego trip out of it but I do it for the same reason I wanted to build up the DEA / DENet thing....to help DEs.
...and it doesn't matter to you what state the profession is in as long as you have your title because you are pleased as punch about it, but don't ask us to swallow the spin
Then don't ask me tostop looking at the larger picture. DEs don't exist in a vacuum,Audio. And...like it or not, some droid changes/wishes are rather nasty to code. That's just reality. I don't like it...you don't like it. But it is the reality of where we areat...
And...I'm hardly "pleased as punch" about taking on a role that seems to focus some amount of derision in my direction, especially when I do it for entirely altruistic reasons.
- your postings have gone from interesting and mildly amusing to the most blantant example of corporate PR than I have ever seen.
I don't know what to tell you, Audio. I'm sorry you aren't happy with my performance as a Corr., so far. I can only tell you that I'll do my best to get better. /shrug
Respectfully,
Bumbles wrote:
It's probably a good idea to keep expectations low.
TK,
Were you instructed to tell us that? Is that the "official" SOE line? Or is that a standard correspondent opinion? Or is it your personal advice? Or is it just good thinking?
Thanks
I think if you follow TK's statement as a general rule, you will not be as disappointed.
I was not disappointed in "Droid Invasion" because I didn't get my hopes up, there were 6 other Publishes before that one that they didn't get right, what made you think they would get the "Droid Invasion" publish right.
I also think you all are being a little to hard of TK in this thread. It's not like he gets paidto keep all these lists, and Stickied Posts up to date. Also to read thru the tonnes of messages you have to read through to pick up on the general feel of the community and report that back to the Devs. Its not easy, hence 2 lost correspondents already. Cut 'em some slack.
Would you want talk about a feature that's in development, find out it won't work out (for whatever reason) and then face the angry mob of players that were severely put out that you announced something you couldn't deliver on?
Uhh? Isnt this happening as we speak.Promises, promises, promises, oh so many promises, an yet this profession has not changed. Very few of the problems have been fixed since last Fall. I tell you this though, one thing the DEVs did announce that they haven't delivered on was the Droid Engineer profession, I remember this announcement when I read the manual.
You also mentioned taking baby steps through the development process, well its been over 8 months since this game went live, and we are just starting to take baby steps? There is no love from the DEVs.
Prin
TK said: "Obviously, I am trying to get you as much as I can. I don't have the specifics myself on many things since they are still being coded (even to a point where they can see if something will 'fly')."
I think this is the core of the problem. A few (like 20) years ago it was discovered that software development went more smoothly, and was less expensive, if you wrote down what your intended changes were before you started to code them. Prior to that discovery, a majority of software development projects proved a waste of money that just irritated the planned users.
If more than one person works on a system, verbal discussions about how things are going to be developed cause a lot of trouble. Not everyone hears the same thing, and the parts don't work together. Note that forum discussions and email threads really have the same problem, because they usually have a lot of unclear and conflicting content. What you need is a document format that contains everything in one place, and change tracking is done between "releases" where everyone agress that the release is internally consistent.
TK, when they start talking with some commitment about the new features, perhaps you could get them to put the results into a consistent format, or do so yourself and then ask that they verify your work. It should have, in one place, all of the information about each change: What droids it goes in(if a module), Radial menu effects in both the datapad and called. what the datapad and examine window will show about it, what each (if any) dialog box will contain and default settings, what commands are processed and what they do (both chat window "/" commands and voice or /tellpet), what the functional effects are etc.
If you can, share them with us marked DRAFT. Even if you can't, it will give their coder (perhaps too late) and paid testers (if any) something to work from before we see the results on test. If they see the advantages of writing external specifications before the code is released, we could see a vast improvement in all of SOE's work.
TheRealTK421 wrote:
AudioOrgana wrote:
TheRealTK421 wrote:
I urge everyone to go fill out their personal top 5 issues, in the stickied thread I made. This will be the new 'issues roadmap' that supercedes what's come in the past.
LOL.
TK, again, stop treating this like a "new" thing.
Okay...."revised". That better? Sheesh.
No, because you still don't get it. It doesn't matter what you call it, this is not the time to start anew.
Yes, it's new to you, but this process has been going on for quite some time.
Gee...I didn't know that, Audio. Really?
Yes. From your comments in just about every post, it is quite clear that you didn't know that. Glad I could help you understand.
It doesn't reset because the person who sends the concerns on changes.
No...it doesn't reset, but it needs to be updated/revised based on stuff that's changed since Drashk's list.
Right, so start there, don't ask us to start ANOTHER list from scratch. See where this is going? I seem to remember you complaining about the "what do you want?" rounds of questions, and this is just another set. But this isn't just about that one list, it's about the whole approach. The Devs like to continually ignore the growing encyclopedia of issues, wishes, bugs, etc. by trying to reset the communications lines again. Forgive me if I see that as a delay tactic and not constructive.
You have just proven the point that everyone in this thread has tried to tell you : we've been getting this run around for nine months, and you need to stop looking at it as a "new" slate.
It's not that the slate is new, it's that the stuff on the slate needs to be revised to reflect where the profession is 'at' currently.
Where it's at is a great big mess, and frustrating the heck out of us by going through the motions yet again isn't a way to get us to help.
You can take your time and make all your new threads that you want, but there will be few, KNOWLEDGABLE people to contribute to them if something drastic does not happen soon.
Yea, I'm concerned about the vets in-the-know dropping too but I can't personally change that in the short term. I have to focus on the larger picture...which, to me, is representing all DE issues and concerns to the Devs (in a prioritized fashion).
How can you present the issues to them when in each thread you just say, "It's ok, we are getting goodies!"? I'm sure you won't agree, but the perception is you pooh-pooh huge issues (chassis customization for one, which you continue to say will be "solved" when in fact it will NOT be by the proposed system), and then you tell us to keep our expectations low, and that the Devs always hype things so we shouldn't hold them to their word...well, when you add all that up, you don't see how you have some power in keeping those few that haven't given up yet in the fold?
We know that you like your position,
You know....sometimes I don't, to be honest. I know you think I get some ego trip out of it but I do it for the same reason I wanted to build up the DEA / DENet thing....to help DEs.
TK, in most of the posts you make your ego shows through; this isn't a new thing by any strech of the imagination, but since your self-titled "elevation" it has certainly gotten worse. The fact that you want to help is great, but you may want to try to do so without so much attitude.
...and it doesn't matter to you what state the profession is in as long as you have your title because you are pleased as punch about it, but don't ask us to swallow the spin
Then don't ask me tostop looking at the larger picture. DEs don't exist in a vacuum,Audio. And...like it or not, some droid changes/wishes are rather nasty to code. That's just reality. I don't like it...you don't like it. But it is the reality of where we areat...
TK, if you don't understand this I guess we can just abandon all hope. The "too hard" excuse would be fine on it's own, but when it's an excuse for poor communication, poor implementation, and the ignoring of vital issues while swinging the nerf bat more than the "fix" bat, it just doesn't fly.
And...I'm hardly "pleased as punch" about taking on a role that seems to focus some amount of derision in my direction, especially when I do it for entirely altruistic reasons.
You wouldn't know that from your postings.
- your postings have gone from interesting and mildly amusing to the most blantant example of corporate PR than I have ever seen.
I don't know what to tell you, Audio. I'm sorry you aren't happy with my performance as a Corr., so far. I can only tell you that I'll do my best to get better. /shrug
It's not your performance,it's thateach time you spin something, you just add to the web of distrust that so many of us feel between ourselves as a DE community and the Dev team that espouses to truly care about our wishes.
If we can't get you to be honest (and not patronizing) about the issues out here on the boards, what hope is there that it's happening anywhere else?
AO
Message Edited by AudioOrgana on 04-02-2004 03:15 PM
Jenden wrote:
I think the new issues list is necessary, because things have changed. No, most of the old stuff still isn't fixed, but there is some new stuff that may need to be fixed first, and there has also been a decent amount of turnover lately, meaning different people with different ideas of what needs to be fixed. There's only so much you can keep changing the old list before its a new list anyway. I think in this case it made more sense (in my opinion at least), to start over.
Well I guess you are just more patient than the rest of us, Jenden.
Again, it's not about that one thing - because all the professions have been asked for new lists.
It's the overall approach that this is the begining, not the two big patches that were supposed to be the culmination of all the work we have already done.
We have supposedly been given more attention than any other profession post-launch in SWG, we will not see this kind of attention again.
We would be foolish if we thought what we said now will have any effect on Publish 8, which is likely close to being done; and any work that will be going into us again is far, far into the future. If we get any attention again before 2005 I will honestly be surprised. Many of us have been at this for nine months or more - and asking us to wait that long again, or longer, isn't going to cut it. 
AO
/bow
AudioOrgana wrote:
If we get any attention again before 2005 I will honestly be surprised.
I guess you'll have to live with being surprised then.
Respectfully,
Shian_Tavkin wrote:
Again - WHY is it not balanced? I dare you to get any sane answer.