Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: DEs, You Need to Make Yourselves Heard! (With a HINT from TK!)
Jemebly, do me a favor, read back though months and months of DE posts in this forum. There are so many great ideas posted here, even the devs (when they make a rare appearance on this board) agree the ideas are great. We are made promise after promise, only to have them broken. And every patch seems to create more droid issues than are addressed.
So after 6 months of this, most of us DEs have said F@*& this and just stopped caring. Let them promise or not promise whatever they want, we dont care. We SHOULD be one of the most sought after artisans, not the toy peddlers we are now.
At one point this past winter, we went over 50 days without 1 dev post in our forum. In the meantime, 4 different devs visited the CH forum and posted close to 100 times. We DEs got the hint, we were not important, and never would be.
So we just watch the patches come and go, and hopeour products are not nerfed anymore than they already have been.And yes, DEs laughed when we saw the Droid Invasion banner last publish, we got very little, no new droids, and alot more hollow promises for the future. And we no longer care.
The devs will laugh a little bit longer -- but not much . . . I can hardly wait for this conversation to happen:
Kurt: Can I take your order?
Random Customer: I'd like a cheeseburger, fries, and a shake.
Kurt: I'll have those onion rings ready in a jiffy, please drive forward for your total
Random Customer: I didn't order onion rings
Kurt: You didn't not order them, you therefore must have wanted them, please drive forward for your total
Random Customer: I will not "drive forward for my total"
Kurt: Are you a Wookie?
Random Customer: Are your arms still attached to your shoulders?
Kurt: Time for my break! whew!!!!!
Kurt (several minutes later): Are you still here?
Random Customer: Yeah, I'm waiting on my fries
Kurt: The onion rings are done
Random Customer: I don't want rings, I want fries
Kurt: But 83% of DEs want rings!
Random Customer: I'm not a DE though
Kurt: But if you were, you'd get a clear-topped R2 and a free order of onion rings
Random Customer: Can I just have my order of fries?
Kurt: No
Random Customer: Why?
Kurt: It would unbalance the equilibrium which is balanced upon a fulcrum which sits comfortably on the head of a pin (and wobbles a little bit)
Random Customer: Screw it! I like McDonalds fries better
Kurt: Thank you, come again!
The devs will laugh a little bit longer -- but not much . . . I can hardly wait for this conversation to happen:
Kurt: Can I take your order?
Random Customer: I'd like a cheeseburger, fries, and a shake.
Kurt: I'll have those onion rings ready in a jiffy, please drive forward for your total
Random Customer: I didn't order onion rings
Kurt: You didn't not order them, you therefore must have wanted them, please drive forward for your total
Random Customer: I will not "drive forward for my total"
Kurt: Are you a Wookie?
Random Customer: Are your arms still attached to your shoulders?
Kurt: Time for my break! whew!!!!!
Kurt (several minutes later): Are you still here?
Random Customer: Yeah, I'm waiting on my fries
Kurt: The onion rings are done
Random Customer: I don't want rings, I want fries
Kurt: But 83% of DEs want rings!
Random Customer: I'm not a DE though
Kurt: But if you were, you'd get a clear-topped R2 and a free order of onion rings
Random Customer: Can I just have my order of fries?
Kurt: No
Random Customer: Why?
Kurt: It would unbalance the equilibrium which is balanced upon a fulcrum which sits comfortably on the head of a pin (and wobbles a little bit)
Random Customer: Screw it! I like McDonalds fries better
Kurt: Thank you, come again!
Sunfire1 wrote:
Jemebly, do me a favor, read back though months and months ..........
It would apear that no one even noticed the Droid non-Invasion.
I would recommend that each and everyone of use get over there and make a post/complaint/suggestions. If nothing else, just to let everyone know there is a DE profession.
Message Edited by jemelby on 04-01-2004 01:33 PM
TK - enough is enough already!
Now I'm sure, armed as you are with your secret access to the Corresponent Forums, that you are doing your Correspondant job to the best of your abilities. So, this is not necessarily Anti-You, in fact I quite like you.
That said, it's pretty obvious thet the Correspondent program is not functioning. Its not functioning in the interests if the Players I mean. I have no doubt whatever that it achieves SOE's goals of reducing the heat they are exposed to, it gives them an excellent excuse not to read profession forums, and it has succeeded in reducing the workload for TH and other Red names for that very reason. All well and good for them.
For the players, us, it is an unmitigated disaster. To say that we are operating in the dark is an understatement of vast proportions. The communications is 99.9% one way from us to them, and it DOES feel like all the passion and effort is being poured into a black hole.
You have become something of a customer relations person, and in so doing are working more for their interests than for ours (see above). I cannot count the number of times you have said that 'Good Things' are on the way. You always have to temper that statement by saying that you really cant comment in more detail in case X or Y doesn't materialize. Then you always say something along the lines of 'I really appreciate your help by being (insert positivity word of your choice).
Now, what MMO Company in it's right mind, that hopes to hold onto its long term customers, keeps ALL development plans secret, bases it's development on what one person filters to them from the community? What Software Department who cares anything about Quality refuses to maintain a 'known issues' list with a schedule, a published schedule for it's customers to know that A. the issue is recognized and B. roughly when a resolution can be expected?
What sane group of developers would change the forums so that In Concept areas are specifically set aside, and then proceeds to publish 2 whole publishes with nary a discussion on the content thereof.
Why do they think there is so much unhappiness here? Do they think we are all psychotic or could it be that we are sick and tired of watching OUR publishes come and go, with so little being done for us it's almost laughable. To cao it all, what they give with one hand they take away in spades with the other. Why is DE any different to Chef or BE? Don't give me any of that bull about DE 'being so interwoven with other professions' cos that won't wash. We are not getting the degree of attention that both Chef and BE had, not even remotely close to the hours of development that went into those revamps.
And in the middle.....they have you. Well I know you are well meaning, and no doubt do your job within the constraints you have to, but I say again it is not working. Not from a player's perspective it's not.
If all you are allowed to do is give the very vaguest of hints about 'good things coming' then I say thats not good enough. Not by a long long way. Whats publicly on the table for Pub 8 is laughably little, and if there is possibly more...why cant we be allowed to know what and have some input on it? I'ts all well and good if they believe you pass our messages on, but if we are looking at a blank whiteboard, whats to discuss?
I'm afraid I no longer have any confidence in either SOE's determination to do anything useful in Pub8, nor in the Correpondant program. Again I say I do not blame you, it's just a poor design.
It feels very much like being in the dark in a mushroom farm to me, and the feed they are pouring on us has insufficient nutrients, which is why so many of us are dying or dead.
Don't hold your breath would be my advice, and I would just love to be proved wrong.
Make them LISTEN and ACT before its too late,feed back their responses, or at the very least tell us the truth about whats so all fired secret out there.
/bow
Respectfully
Message Edited by Shian_Tavkin on 04-02-2004 01:55 AM
Very well said, Shian.
TK - I'm wondering if you signed some sort of NDA with Sony/Lucas Arts, because it's feelsas if you arefilteringyourself so heavily on these boards that we haven't heard from YOU in a while. I say that not as a criticism, and not it anger, butwith a touch of sadness.
Deidre
Bumbles wrote:
...Kurt: But if you were, you'd get a clear-topped R2 and a free order of onion rings...
Shian,
That coupled with Virtanis farewell post explains the game as preciselyand perfectly as anything ever stated. The Devs lack the fundamentals to be Game Masters in any capacity (a la Virtanis). And when they try to make a change or progressive move to the game it is done with lack of understanding. Even though communication is one way, they still never seem to get the point of view of the player. My guess is that the Correspondent program, like you intimated, over-filters any communication. The passion with which things are desired are castrated by the Correspondents themselves. Our own player representatives wind up wanting to be esteemed by both player and Dev that the lack lustre information they do forward to Devs remains vague and shallow in contrast to the original posts.
The Devs wish to remain the Illuminati of gaming. Only they are exposed to the secrets of the inner circle. The fanbois will drink the Kool-Aid. The skeptics will not.
Shian_Tavkin wrote:
TK - enough is enough already!
Now I'm sure, armed as you are with your secret access to the Corresponent Forums, that you are doing your Correspondant job to the best of your abilities. So, this is not necessarily Anti-You, in fact I quite like you.
Thanks...I like you as well. I don't even feel like I'm all that good of a Corr yet, to be honest...but I'm trying all the time to get better.
That said, it's pretty obvious thet the Correspondent program is not functioning. Its not functioning in the interests if the Players I mean. I have no doubt whatever that it achieves SOE's goals of reducing the heat they are exposed to, it gives them an excellent excuse not to read profession forums, and it has succeeded in reducing the workload for TH and other Red names for that very reason. All well and good for them.
Well...I do have a different perspective. I'm seeing the Corrs. often cut through the noise on the boards and bring the real, important issues right to the Devs' table. The group of Corrs. we have right now are an awesome group of people that are each committed to their respective professions. We often help each other by giving perspective on any issue that relates to other professions as well. I know that players don't see a ton of output from Corrs., which only leads to the perception that nothing is happening.
What can I do to make that better for us? I will, of course, post any/all info that I can when I have it. But I can hardly give output when there is none (yet) to give.
For the players, us, it is an unmitigated disaster. To say that we are operating in the dark is an understatement of vast proportions. The communications is 99.9% one way from us to them, and it DOES feel like all the passion and effort is being poured into a black hole.
Yea...it's always been this way. At least, that's how it must be perceived. I can tell you that if/when the system works, there isn't a ton of need for a Red-name to respond since the Corrs. can do that.
You have become something of a customer relations person, and in so doing are working more for their interests than for ours (see above). I cannot count the number of times you have said that 'Good Things' are on the way. You always have to temper that statement by saying that you really cant comment in more detail in case X or Y doesn't materialize. Then you always say something along the lines of 'I really appreciate your help by being (insert positivity word of your choice).
Yea...that's my real-life position leaking in. I'll try to tone down the respectful nature and adopt some of my past ranty tone.
Seriously...I just don't want to be overtly negative (however deserved). It doesn't move DEs or droid issues forward for me to be out and out negative. I need to keep my objectivity a bit so that I can represent the entire DE community fairly.
In addition, I have to keep in mind how many non-DEs are sort of affected by what I do (even though they may not be aware). I consider those people too.
And....yes, if things pan out, we do have good things on the way.
Now, what MMO Company in it's right mind, that hopes to hold onto its long term customers, keeps ALL development plans secret, bases it's development on what one person filters to them from the community?
From what I understand, a lot of other MMO/game companies don't really have Dev. communication to their players at all. In that regard, I think SWG does better than you think (but not as well as we'd all like).
What Software Department who cares anything about Quality refuses to maintain a 'known issues' list with a schedule, a published schedule for it's customers to know that A. the issue is recognized and B. roughly when a resolution can be expected?
What sane group of developers would change the forums so that In Concept areas are specifically set aside, and then proceeds to publish 2 whole publishes with nary a discussion on the content thereof.
Yup....TH is getting a post from me today to get an ETA on the In-Con and In-Dev threads.
Why do they think there is so much unhappiness here? Do they think we are all psychotic or could it be that we are sick and tired of watching OUR publishes come and go, with so little being done for us it's almost laughable. To cap it all, what they give with one hand they take away in spades with the other. Why is DE any different to Chef or BE? Don't give me any of that bull about DE 'being so interwoven with other professions' cos that won't wash. We are not getting the degree of attention that both Chef and BE had, not even remotely close to the hours of development that went into those revamps.
Honestly? We all don't know the code. I know it's nice to say that DEs should just 'be' different...but it obviously doesn't work that way. If it were possible for them to easily code the 'uber DE' changes we'd want, don't you think they'd have done these easy things by now (if for no other reason than to shut us all up)?
The fact is that the nature of droids is simply more complex and unique than what is found in other professions. Unfortunate for us, from a development standpoint, but true nonetheless.
And in the middle.....they have you. Well I know you are well meaning, and no doubt do your job within the constraints you have to, but I say again it is not working. Not from a player's perspective it's not.
Yea, I can see why you'd say that. I still need to work on communicating with the DEs better. I think a lot of the failure you point out falls on me, not on the Devs. It's up to me to get back with you with the best info that I can (at least, it's faster than waiting on a red-name to get back).
If all you are allowed to do is give the very vaguest of hints about 'good things coming' then I say thats not good enough. Not by a long long way.
Obviously, I am trying to get you as much as I can. I don't have the specifics myself on many things since they are still being coded (even to a point where they can see if something will 'fly').
Whats publicly on the table for Pub 8 is laughably little, and if there ispossibly more...why cant we be allowed to know what and have some input on it?
This is a key point. The reason they are often worried to talk about whatever they are working on is that if it doesn't come to pass for some reason, they get buried in rants and flames.
Would you want talk about a feature that's in development, find out it won't work out (for whatever reason) and then face the angry mob of players that were severely put out that you announced something you couldn't deliver on?
That's what they have to face with every profession. Apparently, some of the other profession forums don't face this issue as much. I guess we DEs are just too passionate for them to feel comfortable releasing information when they know it will be twisted, ripped, flamed and otherwise put down.
I'ts all well and good if they believe you pass our messages on, but if we are looking at a blank whiteboard, whats to discuss?
Hey, Shian...........................I'm there for you. I've been pushing quite hard (near-daily posts on the Corr. boards) to get information that I can pass back to you all. Good or bad, I don't care...I want real info, sooner than later.
If they don't give it to me, they don't. Both Sintrosi and Drashk faced fundamentally the same issue, as I recall.
I'm afraid I no longer have any confidence in either SOE's determination to do anything useful in Pub8, nor in the Correpondant program. Again I say I do not blame you, it's just a poor design.
Well, I see the Corr. thing work for players all the time (even though the players will likely never know). Yes, I'm sure it still has some bumps in the design but I see it moving a lot player issues forward.
Example: Both the BH and Jedi Corrs. are really putting the infinite Seeker bug thing right up in front of the Devs. I am an obvious person to push this...but having the other Corrs. step up and get behind this issue as well really raises it to a much higher level. You all can't see that...but it's happening.
It feels very much like being in the dark in a mushroom farm to me, and the feed they are pouring on us has insufficient nutrients, which is why so many of us are dying or dead.
Don't hold your breath would be my advice, and I would just love to be proved wrong.
Make them LISTEN and ACT before its too late, feed back their responses, or at the very least tell us the truth about whats so all fired secret out there.
I'm not gonna put forth a ton of info that may not happen. Period. I simply won't talk about a feature that isn't a lock to get on to TC. And that's that. I'm sorry if that makes some people angry but I think it's a very bad idea to talk about something that's not going to get in.
I will get you info on every issue that I can get info on....as soon as I can get it. Right now, I'm pushing hard for the status on our post-P7 issues (like the aforementioned Seeker fix) and info on what's happening with P8 changes.
I may have something later today...but right now, it's back to tracking the Top 5 issues.
/bow
Respectfully,