Droid Engineer Archive

Nell, Strayker, you are both right.

First, there is always going to be two main types of customers:

1) "What's the best droid you can make? I want that."

2) "What's the cheapest max medic/max-storage/max-everything you can make?"

There are also two types of Droid Engineers (well, many more than two, but two types for the sake of this discussion) :

1) DE's who price by function/market

2) DE's who price by resources (or "CPU")

Of course, a healthy DE looks at both, but at the base of most pricing schemes is either one or the other. In this case, a chassis system with no internal requirements/limitations, effectively making it a skin, would mean we'd HAVE to price by function over chassis. There would be no other way to operate. I've always found it easier, even when I was a backpack DE, to start out with a bare chassis price and then add to the price for each module.

Over time, with the addition of so many modules that have quality matters (notably combat and harvesting), the gap between chassis and module prices has closed considerably, with me charging as much for the base chassis of an R3 as I do for a single one of my combat modules. That means the final price of a maxxed-out combat R3 for me is 1/7 of the cost of the droid (since I put level 6 armor for free in all my droids anyway). Why has this happened? Well, the high OQ/COND metal needed to make phat combat and harvesting modules is VERY expensive and rare on many servers. WS/AS pay 15, 20, 50, even up to 100cpu for this stuff because it has the same stats as many of their important items. However, chassis require more "work", so while it's true I don't make a great deal on them, I do make a great deal for less work on the modules, so it evens out and I make a very tidy profit.

That's why I'm not really convinced yet, after reading more replies, that this would be for us. It would fit in line with my current pricing arrangement, but it would defeat one of our core wants as DE's to give chassis individuality. It would be easier to do custom droids, because you could just build up the popular module combos, factory them off, and then do the final assemble with whatever chassis you choose on demand - but then again, do we really want to see such chassis become such a trivial, asthetic decision?

Finally, when I hear you guys both talk about mouse droids, I just cringe; until the Droid Publishes I hadn't sold one since I was a master (refused to), and after the only time I'll make them is in crates of detonation droids. It's like Master WS selling padded armor with at least one 80% stat that can do the job of composite...it may not hold as many modules, but putting a level 6 anything in a MSE is blasphemy.

AO

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AudioOrgana wrote:
Nell, Strayker, you are both right.

First, there is always going to be two main types of customers:

1) "What's the best droid you can make? I want that."

2) "What's the cheapest max medic/max-storage/max-everything you can make?"

There are also two types of Droid Engineers (well, many more than two, but two types for the sake of this discussion) :

1) DE's who price by function/market

2) DE's who price by resources (or "CPU")

Of course, a healthy DE looks at both, but at the base of most pricing schemes is either one or the other. In this case, a chassis system with no internal requirements/limitations, effectively making it a skin, would mean we'd HAVE to price by function over chassis. There would be no other way to operate. I've always found it easier, even when I was a backpack DE, to start out with a bare chassis price and then add to the price for each module.

Over time, with the addition of so many modules that have quality matters (notably combat and harvesting), the gap between chassis and module prices has closed considerably, with me charging as much for the base chassis of an R3 as I do for a single one of my combat modules. That means the final price of a maxxed-out combat R3 for me is 1/7 of the cost of the droid (since I put level 6 armor for free in all my droids anyway). Why has this happened? Well, the high OQ/COND metal needed to make phat combat and harvesting modules is VERY expensive and rare on many servers. WS/AS pay 15, 20, 50, even up to 100cpu for this stuff because it has the same stats as many of their important items. However, chassis require more "work", so while it's true I don't make a great deal on them, I do make a great deal for less work on the modules, so it evens out and I make a very tidy profit.

That's why I'm not really convinced yet, after reading more replies, that this would be for us. It would fit in line with my current pricing arrangement, but it would defeat one of our core wants as DE's to give chassis individuality. It would be easier to do custom droids, because you could just build up the popular module combos, factory them off, and then do the final assemble with whatever chassis you choose on demand - but then again, do we really want to see such chassis become such a trivial, asthetic decision?

Finally, when I hear you guys both talk about mouse droids, I just cringe; until the Droid Publishes I hadn't sold one since I was a master (refused to), and after the only time I'll make them is in crates of detonation droids. It's like Master WS selling padded armor with at least one 80% stat that can do the job of composite...it may not hold as many modules, but putting a level 6 anything in a MSE is blasphemy.

AO

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AudioOrgana wrote:

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Straker_Atrella wrote:

Ohh don't get me wrong, I get lots of questions and such. That's why I have copy and paste answers, and instructional e-mails. May seem lazy, but I would rather write an e-mail once when I have time, then miss a step or something with a customer because I rush something.

I honestly very rarely get people ever saying they can't afford my droids. My pricing scheme has always been fairly simple. 10-15K for a chasis, except for BLL and Power. 10k per module flat rate. Then off the final droid I may add or subtract a little due to quality of resources and the use of the droid. JTL Droids are a small exception.

If you look on my vendor, you will see Droids priced from 20k - 85k. They all follow basically the above pricing scheme though. If a customer can't afford the 75k Droid, then they buy the 30k version. Then they come back later and get the 75k one. I offer a wide selection, but you get what you pay for.

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Which is very simmilar to how I do business, and it works.

It's because we have a certain type of customer. I agree, that to many people anything under 50K is pocket change. That is not to deny that there are people that are poorer, but they simply aren't my (and your) customers. It's like going into Tiffany's and asking for a plastic ashtray for $1.98.



AO

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Well I do try and serve the rich as well as the poor. My Harvs and top of the line Combat Droids are 80 and 85k, but I do offer beginner Combat Droids for 20k. These violate my pricing scheme as well, but they are not designed to make me money. Their entire purpose is for a new person to be able to buy something, then later on come back and upgrade. Same thing with Med and Storage Droids, buy a cheap one now, come back for a better one later.

I'm sorry if this offends, but if you can't afford 20-30k, then you are doing something wrong.

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Straker_Atrella wrote:

Well I do try and serve the rich as well as the poor. My Harvs and top of the line Combat Droids are 80 and 85k, but I do offer beginner Combat Droids for 20k. These violate my pricing scheme as well, but they are not designed to make me money. Their entire purpose is for a new person to be able to buy something, then later on come back and upgrade. Same thing with Med and Storage Droids, buy a cheap one now, come back for a better one later.

I'm sorry if this offends, but if you can't afford 20-30k, then you are doing something wrong.

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Sure, and I used to do the same. I stopped not long ago selling "Beginner" droids because I saw so many other DE's come and go who tried to emulate my products and couldn't, and I was dominating the market in a way that wasn't comfortable for me. I'm all for being a major player, but I really didn't want to discourage other DE's. So eventually I just let the vendor run out, and I waited for someone to step in. Slowly, they have, mostly since JTL. Those who just got DE to make flight computers (1-4) and astromechs are also making low-level medical droids, etc., or at least some of them are.

Also, as you note in a slightly different way, this is also creating a culture of value in droids. People SHOULD have to work to get a droid - it shouldn't be something that every noob can come in, run a couple of missions, and buy the top of the line model. I ran out and did a dozen mid-level missions today just to see the new loot tables - and I made 100K in less than an hour just in mission rewards, and another 10-15K in looted credits. I have one elite combat profession. I do not think expecting people to do an hours worth of missions to afford my very best combat or harvest droid is too much to ask. /shrug.

Yes, occasionally I am sure someone leaves my shop in a huff at my prices - and I truly wish them well and hope they do find what they are looking for elsewhere. Heck, if they speak with me, I'll even recomend where they can look. But my customers are the people who either just want what they want when they want it and don't wanna go lookin' for it, or those people who just demand the highest quality possible and support those dedicated professionals that make it.

My instinct is to apologize for us getting off-topic, but if this type of model redesign were to happen people would really need to start thinking this way - because the days of pricing by chassis would be over.

AO

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Nell2ThaIzzay wrote:

I'm also not cool with increased amounts of resources required. I am really struggling enough as it is. I have harvestors going, and I still don't have enough resources. I have to end up buying resources, and I don't sell droids because I can't advertise my vendor, so really, I lose money as a droid engineer. How I've managed to support it this far, I really don't know.

I don't know how the rest of you have enough resources, and all the best resources to boot. I can barely afford a 1k stack of steel. I don't need even more requirements making me go through that 1k stack any faster than I already am.

Maybe it's because most crafters I know are completely devoted to it, whereas I am spread out over a couple things (crafting and combat), but I have a hard enough time supporting myself as it is. I don't need any more resource or component requirements.

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No offense, but what are you harvesting with? BER1 personal harvesters or something? You should be able to afford at least medium harvesters. You do know how to survey, right? You're not just plopping stuff down and harvesting whatever is under it?

If you can't keep up with the resource requirements of DE, you're doing something seriously wrong. I'm running my DE business off the leftovers from harvesting for Shipwright. WhenI can run 5 heavy harvesters on 70% spots for 2 days, and get enough material to make 4 tier 3 chassis, DE has got nothing to complain about in resource usage.

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Nell2ThaIzzay wrote:

Under the proposed system, and my price guide, here's how my sales would go, assuming I am a Master Droid Engineer. Let's use the example that they want a 110 med droid and all crafting stations.

Customer: "Hi"

Marr'Taan: "Hello"

Customer: "Can you make a medical droid with a 110 rating and all of the crafting stations?"

Marr'Taan: "Yes, as a matter of fact, I can. Let me go ahead and whip one up for you."

Customer: "How much does it cost?"

Marr'Taan: "Depends on the droid that you want. I can make you an R3 droid fully equipped for 49500, or an MSE with the same exact functionality and quality for 33500."

Customer: "I'll take the MSE"

That's a difference of 16000 credits, under my pricing guide, between an R3 droid, or an MSE. Both do the exact same things, but one costs 16k less. To some people, that might not be a lot of money, but to others, and probably the majority, why pay that 16k when you can get the same results without paying it? And then me, who's scrounging for every bit I can get, just lost 16k because someone had the choice to get the same droid in an MSE module.

Seriously, I like the system we have now. That's like saying my Kia Rio should be able to have the same horsepower as a Mustang, because people who want faster cars have to buy Mustangs.

I've noticed in the couple months I've been back in the game, and back on these forums, that I really am the black sheep of all of my professions.

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Part of your problem may also be the way you sell your droids. Here's usually how this conversation goes for me:

Customer: "hey, I hear you can make me a droid"
Me: "Sure can, what type are you looking for?"
Customer: "I need something that will let me heal and buff people outside, and craft meds"
Customer: "how much are they?"
Me: "All depends on what type of droid you want it to be. I've got <insert all droid types here>"
Customer: "Ok, how much for xxxx type"

By that point they've pretty much decided what type they want. If it turns out they honestly don't have enough credits to afford the one they want at first, I mention that I can make them a different type at a lower price, or I suggest that they might be able to get the money they need by running missions. Most people, when given the options of all the droids without mention of price, don't even ask which one is cheapest. They might ask which one works best or if this one is as good as that one, but thats about it. Don't know if its just my server or the type of customers I get, but thats the way it goes for me.

There are actually time I recommend my cheaper droids over my more expensive ones. I often have people come in looking for a level 3 R3 for their Y-wing, I kindly tell them that since they will want to replace it before long, they might want to go with a cheaper R4 or R5. Not only does this make them happy, but gets them comming back when they decide to replace it (and are more likely to get a ne droid every level instead of hanging on to the more expensive R3 as long as they can).

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AudioOrgana wrote:

That said, I think we do need to examine the need for this idea in terms of function - is this *really* the way we want to go? The idea itself is well thought-out, and the initial cons don't seem terribly bad and in fact may be good. I thought for a very long time we were fighting for MORE differentiation between chassis, not to eliminate it all together. Functionally, it makes sense - but we need to decide if we want to make this change to our core philosophy. Many of us always hoped that the BLL would be able to acually lift loads, for one. While I like the idea, I like the idea of making chassis do something on their own (Protocol, BLL, WED, etc.) that fits their theme as well as function, better as a priority.

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I agree with the big picture in this comment. This is a well thought out proposal, but, again, it strikes me as a wrong priority for the profession. Of course, my stated aim is to get more combat droids in. My two cents is to make that the TOP priority. But aside from that, I would rather see chassis specialization than see this propasal come to life.

I hate to be overly simplistic, but "If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it." The system we have right now is not perfect, but I would rather see developer time go into bug fixes, new features, new modules and new combat droids.

I do not want to see the profession re-written in a manner that leaves us substanially where we are at today, but with a lot of needlessly re-written code. Nonetheles, my thanks are to Drashk for his thoughtful and diligent work.