Droid Engineer Archive

Ok AO and SD, here are my thoughts on the matter, well in regard to your thoughts.

Message Edited by Straker_Atrella on 12-01-2004 01:34 PM

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Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:

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AudioOrgana wrote:

That said, I think we do need to examine the need for this idea in terms of function - is this *really* the way we want to go?


That sounds like a call for a poll. In that regard, I think it would be worthwhile to 'take the temperature' of the DE community, in terms of what major changes we should trying to bring about...

/whisper I bet I already know the answer though...

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I agree with the big picture in this comment. This is a well thought out proposal, but, again, it strikes me as a wrong priority for the profession.


I think it's dangerous to assume that there's any "right" singular priority for us (other than perhaps decay).


Of course, my stated aim is to get more combat droids in.


What if they simply became more worthwhile (i.e. nothing new would come along but changes were made that could simply make our existing products more desired/effective)?

I think that might be easier to get to and might leave usdev.time to get mo' betta' stuff accomplished.


My two cents is to make that the TOP priority. But aside from that, I would rather see chassis specialization than see this propasal come to life.


I submit that we focus more (sooner) on the needs of our larger potential userbase than on our own play experience.

While all the proposals so far are excellent. I see them only affecting us outright and substantially. Yes, there's some impact on the end-user but I think the proposed changes go more to the heart of what it is to be a DE than what it is to be a droid user.

The reason is that I hear over....and over...and over...that DE isn't as good of a financial choice of crafting professions as WS, AS or even Shipwright. So...we should be trying to garner dev time to get anything done that can have a major, fundamental and long-lasting affect on THAT issue alone.

All else seems to just amount to changing the curtains when it's the house that needs to be rebuilt.

I hate to be overly simplistic, but "If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it." The system we have right now is not perfect, but I would rather see developer time go into bug fixes, new features, new modules and new combat droids.


I agree that some more bug fixes would be good. In terms of anything new, I'd say my personal priorities would be:

• Decay


• More modules or new chassis(either utility and/or combat)


• Changes to chassis use vis a vis number of modules available

Note: While the idea of making 'hot-swappable' changes to a droid sounds nice...I agree with AO that it will shoot this profession in a vital, negativeway. It also equates to spending time rebuilding something that works just fine currently.

One of the things I very much wouldn't want to see happen is any change that leads to less and less MDEs on a server, when we should be trying to get more (due to mo' betta' useful droid features for end-users).

I do not want to see the profession re-written in a manner that leaves us substanially where we are at today, but with a lot of needlessly re-written code. Nonetheles, my thanks are to Drashk for his thoughtful and diligent work.

Indeed. Any/all dev. time we try to garner must be carefully considered so that it moves both the DE profession and droid users forward. If we waste time on changes that don't really change anything, we'll have all lost out.

That being said, I don't see us getting any substantial work for awhile.

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TheRealTK421 wrote:

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Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:

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AudioOrgana wrote:

That said, I think we do need to examine the need for this idea in terms of function - is this *really* the way we want to go?


That sounds like a call for a poll. In that regard, I think it would be worthwhile to 'take the temperature' of the DE community, in terms of what major changes we should trying to bring about...

I agree that we need a vote, but first let's explore all of the options. So far it's been, "let's reinvent the profession" and very little talk of an expansion on cobmat droids. That's somewhat frustrating because we as a community voted to go with utility droids first, now all the discussion is toward re-inventing the profession and very little is being said about combat droids. And combat, as we all know, is the bread and butter of this game. It's the only "necessary" thing and most non-combat professions are in a support role. Along with Tailors, we are not in that role.

What happened to our deal? Is it utility first, then combat droids, except before combat droids more utitility?

If there is to be a vote, it should be after combat droids have had their day in a series of discussions leady by Drashk as correspondent. If people decide then that they want to be able to swap sometimes bugged module into dull existing chassis, instead of crafting hot new bad @ss droids, then so be it. But the debate as framed now is not inclusive of this idea and the framing of the debate is VERY important. Combat droids need some correspondent mind share too perhaps with a review of the DC proposals.

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I agree with the big picture in this comment. This is a well thought out proposal, but, again, it strikes me as a wrong priority for the profession.


I think it's dangerous to assume that there's any "right" singular priority for us (other than perhaps decay).

I'm only expressingMY opinion and I expressly stated that it was an opinion -- just like your view is that decay should be the number one priority. There is no danger in my expression of what I think is right for the community.

Of course, my stated aim is to get more combat droids in.


What if they simply became more worthwhile (i.e. nothing new would come along but changes were made that could simply make our existing products more desired/effective)?

I think that might be easier to get to and might leave usdev.time to get mo' betta' stuff accomplished.

Again, merely a simple difference of opinion. I think we should get awesome combat droids like Droidekas, "roger roger" droids and Super Battle Droids in some manner that is fair and balanced. DEs would get their crafting role, and some players would get to use the droids in a manner determined by the devs (possibly Droid Commander, for example). There would certainly be a lot of decay in combat droids, as well as demand for consumables like repair kits and demand for support droids which likely would also decay.

I speculate that DC was already on the Dev drawing board and further speculate that DC is easier to implement than lot of these ideas because the code is already in place for pets and pet handling.

And I think exciting, new combat droids are Mo Betta than the kinds of utility modules we got last time.


My two cents is to make that the TOP priority. But aside from that, I would rather see chassis specialization than see this propasal come to life.


I submit that we focus more (sooner) on the needs of our larger potential userbase than on our own play experience.

Again, those were my two cents, my opinion. However, consensus is build on a series of opinions, is it not? And I am not alone in wanting cool combat droids. Non-DEs out there would use them and buy them if we could make them. Droidekas are among the most distinctive droids in sci-fi history. Who among us would not wish to own or craft one?

While all the proposals so far are excellent. I see them only affecting us outright and substantially. Yes, there's some impact on the end-user but I think the proposed changes go more to the heart of what it is to be a DE than what it is to be a droid user.

Exactly. There is a difference between technologies and applications. Technologies are all well and good. Applications are what the user sees and uses. Let's get more applications in the professions rather than methods of crafting.

The reason is that I hear over....and over...and over...that DE isn't as good of a financial choice of crafting professions as WS, AS or even Shipwright. So...we should be trying to garner dev time to get anything done that can have a major, fundamental and long-lasting affect on THAT issue alone.

Agree. WS, AS and Shipright are ALL combat support professions. Adding combat droids makes us more like them and less like Tailor. (Respek to tailors, of course).

All else seems to just amount to changing the curtains when it's the house that needs to be rebuilt.

Let's add a swimming pool and a tree house and fix the holes in the roof. Otherwise the house still stand. People already picked over the house and it ain't selling. Time for some improvements and additions, not a new foundation which is fine as it is.

I hate to be overly simplistic, but "If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it." The system we have right now is not perfect, but I would rather see developer time go into bug fixes, new features, new modules and new combat droids.


I agree that some more bug fixes would be good. In terms of anything new, I'd say my personal priorities would be:

• Decay


• More modules or new chassis(either utility and/or combat)


• Changes to chassis use vis a vis number of modules available

Now you're talking. We all have our view what priorities we need for the profession. And that is ALL good. I really appreciate this thoughtful, flame-less discussion, BTW. My priorities:

1. Combat droids (in a dev-approved manner)
2. Bug fixes on existing modules
3. Chassis specialization (Surgical bonus to meds, probot damage bonus, WED Treadwell crafting bonus, stuff like this OR other variants, not just these)

Included in No. 1 is decay for combat droids.

Note: While the idea of making 'hot-swappable' changes to a droid sounds nice...I agree with AO that it will shoot this profession in a vital, negativeway. It also equates to spending time rebuilding something that works just fine currently.

Agree. The larger point is my main concern with these well-thoughout and constructed proposals. The house still stands. Let's make improvements, not replace the foundation.

One of the things I very much wouldn't want to see happen is any change that leads to less and less MDEs on a server, when we should be trying to get more (due to mo' betta' useful droid features for end-users).

I do not want to see the profession re-written in a manner that leaves us substanially where we are at today, but with a lot of needlessly re-written code. Nonetheles, my thanks are to Drashk for his thoughtful and diligent work.

Indeed. Any/all dev. time we try to garner must be carefully considered so that it moves both the DE profession and droid users forward. If we waste time on changes that don't really change anything, we'll have all lost out.

Agree completely. DEs will be happy when their customers are really excited about their droids. And nothing gets people more excited than combat droid.

That being said, I don't see us getting any substantial work for awhile.

Boooooooo!

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/bow

Respectfully,

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Gron_DM wrote:

Sodan, not to sound uppity but there more or less was a poll done in regards to what changes we as DE's want to see done. it was tiggs post to us. the majority of responses were for decay, with functionality improvment (aka makingdroids a more critical part of the swg experience)a close second. of course what people may forget it that part of the "need" idea is more combat droids as well, so its good your making sure people see that....however that post still points to decay first....i myself would prefer to see the need/functionality(more combat droids)addressed first but we have to go off what the feel of the community thinks first. we need to come to a head on this so we can move onto lobbying on need and greater purpose in SWG.

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I think combat droids should be put back on the menu. If there is no discussion of it it will never happen. Maybe know one is talking about them because the community has been brow-beat on the subject. Where are the detailed proposals for making them happen? Incidentally, I've noticed that the DE community boards are VERY slow these days, not like the old days for sure...

R2D2 never "decayed" when he wasn't being shot up or run through a swamp (although I realize that the movies and canon are not the be all end of all of this came; the point nonetheless remains valid). In fact R2D2 and C3P0 NEVER decayed completely. They just kept getting rebuilt. Lots of people have attachement to their old droids, sometimes because they were built by old friends.

Droids + Combat = Decay. Droids don't decay because no one uses them in combat. The really sad part about the droid decay debate is that we're talking about the same not-needed droids. Apart from docs and BHs no one needs our droids. What we're really asking for is that droids fade away in time while in people's datapads, not actually from hardcore use. This does not help our users one bit. Is repeat sales for the same droids really our main goal? Droid decay sounds like a nerf for droid users and a subsidy for a crafting profession without a desirable, necessary product.

I would rather be replacing someone's beat up droideka than explaining why their item storage droid needs replacement every few months. Heck, with droids being so non-essential, why purchase an expendable, decaying and not very useful item? By "useful" I mean required or essential for day-to-day operations. We are the Tailors of the crafting world: our droids look pretty (which is totally cool), but ultimately people don't need them.

On the other hand, people have an expectation that the tools of combat need periodic replacement. Guns and armor decay, lots of expendables are used in combat (powerups, buffpacks, stims, and rez packs). We should be gunning -- heh -- to get a peice of the combat pie. That will lead to legit repeat sales, not just sorry our products don't last.

But again addressing your larger point above: We need to get combat droids as a possibility into the mindset of the community. The lack of discussion removes it from the menu.

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DigitalOne wrote:

I Totaly agree with Sodon, I think our priorities are warped beyond recognition. Its been awhile since we had a pole (btw i dont agree with the way poles ar heald on these boards, cant someone start a pole on one of those websites, and link it here?), and meanwhile alot of new datas and ideas have come out, and we need to take those into acount. And even in our last pole droid experementation and consturuction changes are a minor issue. I dont know why where wasting so much time on irrelevant stuff like this instead of combat which has always been more vital.

My priorities are.

Expanded utility

Combat droids

Droid Power-ups (addresses Droid Decay)

Droid Decay (solved by combat droids)

Bug fixes

Over the months ive come to realize that utility droids shouldnt neccicarily decay, Leave that to the combat droids. A droid thats geting shot at all the time, and one thats rolling around town should take decay into account differently.

We have a fairly decent system of construction thats working for us, i dont see why we need to totaly revamp that. Im not i big fan of basic droid models, but thats a clutter issue, and dosent bother me to the point where im willing to tear down the system as is.

Construction and experementation are NON ISSUES to me. Lets work on the important stuff and drop this crap.

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Digital,

To say that the Project Droid Engineer series is irrelevant and is unimportant crap is something that I completely disagree with. You aren't looking at the reason behind what I am trying to do. You might wish to take the time and read each individual thread and find the underlining reason behind the entire project.

The reasoning behind bringing up each discussion thread it so give the Developers some food for thought on what the DE community, as a whole, would like to see and what we do not want to see.

How we build droids is part of the core issue with this profession. We can add as many new modules and combat droids as we want; however many of the core issues with this profession will still not be addressed. Simply adding X or Y function will be nothing more then the bandaid that we recieved during the Droid Publishes, neither of which actually addressed the core issues.

The Core issues with our profession come down to the following list

• Limited scope of functions


• Limited market customization


• Limited re-occurring market


• Limited Customer base


• Limited Want

Limited scope of function applies to the functions that we currently have. Before we add new modules and functions, the current modules and functions must first be addressed. Just like building a structure on sand, unless there is a solid base to build upon, we are only asking for greater issues down the line. I'm hoping to post the next thread in the series that will cover possible suggestions to 'fix' what we already have.

Limited market customization applies to what droids a person has available to buy. With 3 droids having the lions share of all droid sales -Adv R3, Adv R2, and Adv Probots -many potential droid owners are forced to buy a droidbased onfunction and not on what they actually want. In the time I have been a Droid Engineer, the greatest potential sales loss that I have witnessed is from people who wanted to have a fully customized droid. Forcing people to buy only Adv R3s, R2s and Probots, due to module capacity not only devalues the other 10 different types of droid styles that we have, but it also limits the people that wish to buy a droid to a very small based market. As we saw in the 'Where do we fit in now?' thread, the Tailor market is mostly based off of a persons desire to customize their toon.Style has a psychological effect on playstyle. By allowing a person to express themselves and have function is a win-win situation for DEs.

Limited re-occurring market is almost completely linked to the lack of a decay system in our profession. Utility is currently our largest market and will more then likely always be our largest market. A system that ensures are-occurring market canhappen in many different; howevera decay system is generally agreed upon as being the 'best' way to handle this issue. Since Utility is our largest market, a decay system would need to have an impact on all droid use with the least amount of forced 'ticks' such as what you are suggesting in the forum of 'Power ups'. General use is the 'simplest' solution.

Limited Customer base applies to the limited number of people that are currently using droids. This is the most difficult issue to address, since many different issues are touched upon. Everything from the potential droid owners style, to what features they find appealing, our customer base will increase if we can touch upon more then just a single aspect of the problem.

Limited want fits right in there with Limited Custom base.

The Droid Engineer Project is not geared towards any single persons playstyle of wants. It is geared towards a broad base of different subjects and the Communities reactions to them. If you will note, I have been adding a thread every few days and weeks, at a fairly steady pace. This is how game development happens. People brainstrom on different issues and put them on the table for everyone to discuss.

I'm sorry if I'm not moving fast enough in the Project Droid Engineer series, but guess what... This is but a small taste of what the actual process is like. What ever production time we are given, the time needs to have a well defined path of action. The more we can do now, the less time will be wasted on trying to gather this information when it is needed, 4-6 months down the line.

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Drashk wrote:

To say that the Project Droid Engineer series is irrelevant and is unimportant crap is something that I completely disagree with.

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I agree completely with this point. While I disagree with the priorities and many of the proposals that Drashk is making, I find them to be well-thought out and well-constructed proposals. Unfortunately, DigitalOne may have gone too far in his characterization. I agree with him that the priorties are out of whack and that we should be be trying to get a slice of the combat pie, but I disagree with the way he phrased it.

Drashk has put a lot of thought and invested a lot of time in these proposals. That we differ on what should be prioritized, does not in any way diminish the value of Drashk's work and that of other members of this community.

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Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:

That we differ on what should be prioritized, does not in any way diminish the value of Drashk's work and that of other members of this community.

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The order in which I've been posting thread in this series aren't due to prioritization. Its more to due with me taking the time to put my thoughts on a Droid Commander proposal together. I've been building up momentum with each discussion thread in order to get my brain moving in what I think would be a possible correct direction. If nothing comes up this weekend, and I actually get off my duff to finally put the finishing touches on what I have in mind, I should have the last two major discussions threads, that I had planned, posted.

With the holidays just passing, and the increased speed in which Publishs have been hitting Test Center, I'm moving as fast as I can so that I don't burn myself out in the process. I still need a bit of 'me' time to Level my pilots too. Unless of course, each member of the DE community would like to send me $1 a month. (couldn't resist that one)

Message Edited by Drashk on 12-03-2004 06:29 PM

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Drashk wrote:

Unless of course, each member of the DE community would like to send me $1 a month. (couldn't resist that one)

Message Edited by Drashk on 12-03-2004 06:29 PM

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