Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Ok, let's start simple, what do people want? Poll enclosed.
DigitalOne
Tue Dec 07, 2004 7:23 pm
#27
I have afew problems with the criteria of this poll. But its asking a clear question and we have our anwser. We want change, but we want it within the boundaries of simplicity without ambitous redesign of our foundation.
I think i understand where drashk is going by generating complicated proposals. Through complexity he wants to strengthin our foundation in order to support substantial content potential. But the problem with this is that the level of content which may be introduced has not been defined. We only have a loose concept of what we want. Thus it would be wastefull to spend time pouring a foundation for content that that has not been concluded. We might end up building the foundation for the empire state building when we might only get a garden shed.
I further dissagree with drashk because i belive the system we have already possesses the potential to harbor signifigant content with minor tweaking. That there is no need to tear down the house we live in. We can add a second story if we just had a stair case, we dont need a whole new house.
PS. Ill see if i can come up with a poll myself based on strikers
I think i understand where drashk is going by generating complicated proposals. Through complexity he wants to strengthin our foundation in order to support substantial content potential. But the problem with this is that the level of content which may be introduced has not been defined. We only have a loose concept of what we want. Thus it would be wastefull to spend time pouring a foundation for content that that has not been concluded. We might end up building the foundation for the empire state building when we might only get a garden shed.
I further dissagree with drashk because i belive the system we have already possesses the potential to harbor signifigant content with minor tweaking. That there is no need to tear down the house we live in. We can add a second story if we just had a stair case, we dont need a whole new house.
PS. Ill see if i can come up with a poll myself based on strikers
Message Edited by DigitalOne on 12-07-2004 06:24 PM
Drashk
Tue Dec 07, 2004 7:49 pm
#28
DigitalOne wrote:
i belive the system we have already possesses the potential to harbor signifigant content with minor tweaking. That there is no need to tear down the house we live in. We can add a second story if we just had a stair case, we dont need a whole new house.
That is actually one of the points that I have been trying to get across by suggesting the systems that I have. I wish that I could elabrate on this subject more, but I can't. Not until the CURB NDA is lifted.
By making such grandiose suggestions, the Community has put into words their feelings on different possible scenario. No one knows what the non-Combat Upgrade will look like. It could be equivelant to a complete redesign of how the crafting process works with each profession. It could amount to each crafting profession having their individual crafting complexity changed, so that experimentation matters 100% of the time. It could result in a complete change in the process of how Droid Crafting is accomplished.
Each of the threads that I have created have dealt with many of these subjects. They were done so that when the time comes, and the Correspondents are asked what our community feels on X topic, I have a thread that holds some information on the subject. Not information that states 'This is the plan the DEs have for this.' but rather 'Well, here are the feelings that the DE community has on topic of this nature.'
I guess I spent way too much time as a Boy Scout, since I motto 'Be prepared' still holds true to this day.
Drashk
Wed Dec 08, 2004 12:22 am
#29
DigialOne,
Once again, what I am saying is being mis-interpreted. Let us examine where the game currently is. In the last 6months, what have we seen done in the game?
- The way we sale goods has completely changed.
- The way we are paid for running missions has completely changed
- The way we become Jedi has completely changed.
- The way we travel to other planets has completely changed.
- The way we use Droid Flight Commands has completely changed.
- The way we vote in our cities has completely changed.
- What we loot is completely changing.
Are we starting to see a trend?
We could very well see the same action happen during the CURB, to combat professions. We could also see the same happen once again in the non-CURB. What I have been doing in every single thread that I have created in the Project is to bring such sweeping changes up. I have asked the question, 'What IF?' and have received a number of well thought out responses. The point you are missing is, What if these are actually the plans the DEV team has in mind and is interested in moving forward with the ideas?
With some of the information provide by this Project, I could instantly pull information and give the DEVs a reason as to why the community would not like X proposal, in a rational manner, without having to waita few weeks/days to poll the DE community after the fact. You need to understand one simple change that has been made in the way that DEV team now handles large projects - No information on future development will be spoken of, until it is relevant. This policy change was made to remove the 'But you promised' whine threads. SOETyrant, has bared the DEV team from talking about future development with the general public and has limited discussions to current major development.
We won't be given any guidelines on discussion, or be given any information on future development until right before something is to go to Publish.
As Correspondent, I am trying to gather a motherload of information before any type of future development even begins for the non-CURB and before it gets to the point of even being brought up the Correspondents forum. The last time the DE community was given the chance to try and have discussions, in a more offical manner with TH, the DE community was bombarded by all manner of posts that eventually lead to development time being scraped. Do we really want to allow this to happen again?
You are entitled to your opinion that I am not doing an appropriate job as Correspondent. It comes with part of being a Correspondent. I just hope that you understand that if this is the opinion you wish to have, then it will be difficult for me to hold confidence in anything you post as well. Do your homework. I have put my neck on the line for the DE community a number of times even though I have my own personal ideas on a subject, all in the name of what the Community wants - Not what I want.
DigitalOne
Wed Dec 08, 2004 12:41 am
#30
Drashk wrote:
DigialOne,
Once again, what I am saying is being mis-interpreted. Let us examine where the game currently is. In the last 6months, what have we seen done in the game?
- The way we sale goods has completely changed.
- The way we are paid for running missions has completely changed
- The way we become Jedi has completely changed.
- The way we travel to other planets has completely changed.
- The way we use Droid Flight Commands has completely changed.
- The way we vote in our cities has completely changed.
- What we loot is completely changing.
Are we starting to see a trend?
Of corse i have been seeing this trend, and it sacres me. Im not one who belives in complete change sudden change, i belive some of these sudden changes have hurt, not us but the game. The crafting system is the games saving grace, the rock on which it has been built. And now we want to change it, changing it completely changes the game dynamic and i dont see it going in a positive direction. I am for reasonable transition not revolutionary change.
We could very well see the same action happen during the CURB, to combat professions. We could also see the same happen once again in the non-CURB. What I have been doing in every single thread that I have created in the Project is to bring such sweeping changes up. I have asked the question, 'What IF?' and have received a number of well thought out responses. The point you are missing is, What if these are actually the plans the DEV team has in mind and is interested in moving forward with the ideas?
This is exactly what i have been trying to pry out of you. So you are saying that your posts and thier content are motivated by DEV agenda, this anwsers alot. More please. Theres very little i know about what your doing. What you represent and what you stand for. I sencerely hope you represent what we say and try and put a stop to the negative aspects of thier revamp. Im sorry i have so little confidance in what you do, your position and the information you are privy to makes it difficult to trust you.
With some of the information provide by this Project, I could instantly pull information and give the DEVs a reason as to why the community would not like X proposal, in a rational manner, without having to waita few weeks/days to poll the DE community after the fact. You need to understand one simple change that has been made in the way that DEV team now handles large projects - No information on future development will be spoken of, until it is relevant. This policy change was made to remove the 'But you promised' whine threads. SOETyrant, has bared the DEV team from talking about future development with the general public and has limited discussions to current major development.
You have done a pretty decent job at collecting information, but it can be done better. we need more effective positvistic methods in information gathering. Take a look at the poll post i just made, its not 100% what i want to do, but im in the middle of a tough week, and its the best i can do atm. I was about to make a Polling and information gatheringwebsite but i dont have the time.
We won't be given any guidelines on discussion, or be given any information on future development until right before something is to go to Publish.
This is thier biggest mistake. This is the biggest problem i have with the way they do business. I feel this needs to change
As Correspondent, I am trying to gather a motherload of information before any type of future development even begins for the non-CURB and before it gets to the point of even being brought up the Correspondents forum. The last time the DE community was given the chance to try and have discussions, in a more offical manner with TH, the DE community was bombarded by all manner of posts that eventually lead to development time being scraped. Do we really want to allow this to happen again?
You are entitled to your opinion that I am not doing an appropriate job as Correspondent. It comes with part of being a Correspondent. I just hope that you understand that if this is the opinion you wish to have, then it will be difficult for me to hold confidence in anything you post as well. Do your homework. I have put my neck on the line for the DE community a number of times even though I have my own personal ideas on a subject, all in the name of what the Community wants - Not what I want.
Good to know, but nomatter what you do your motives will be suspect.
Drashk
Wed Dec 08, 2004 12:56 am
#31
DigitalOne wrote:
This is exactly what i have been trying to pry out of you. So you are saying that your posts and thier content are motivated by DEV agenda, this anwsers alot. More please. Theres very little i know about what your doing. What you represent and what you stand for. I sencerely hope you represent what we say and try and put a stop to the negative aspects of thier revamp. Im sorry i have so little confidance in what you do, your position and the information you are privy to makes it difficult to trust you.
Again, you have mis-interpreted what I wrote. This is starting to be a rather strong trend I am seeing from you. Key phrase that outlined the entire paragraph 'WHAT IF'.
I resent the implications that you are making towards me and really hope that you can refrain from making such implications again. As I stated before, I will state again.....do your homework. The Advanced Search function does wonders.
Straker_Atrella
Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:12 am
#32
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
Straker_Atrella wrote:
Ok obviously bug fixes are first, those matter the most, let's jsut assume those get fixed.
It can't geteasuer then this. If we could get one thing in the next year added, what would you want?
A.)The Droid crafting system changed to have experimentation matter more.
B.) New Droid types and modules.
C.) Droid Decay.
D.) To have subcomponants play a larger role in Droid functions and stats.
E.) Have changes made to increase the usage of other Droids, such as the BLL, LE, or Power Droid.
Ok short and simple.
Message Edited by Straker_Atrella on 12-07-2004 07:34 AM
I don't understand this poll. Why have combat droids not been included? This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Leave amazing exciting new combat droids out of the discussion and your left with the belief that no one wants them.
Additionally, although Drashk has made it clear that the order in which he is writing up the topics is not the order in which they automatically should be implemented, the fact remains that without a well-though-out discussion on combat droids all the other topics are on the front-burner and the droideka is off the fire.
This poll it totally and completely skewed. Its DOA.
Ummm I did think about them, they are a large part of why I put the "B" option in there. Are not new Combat types new types of Droids? If it was found that B was the prominant answer, then we could ask next "what types."
DigitalOne
Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:38 am
#33
A.)The Droid crafting system changed to have experimentation matter more.
B.) New Droid types and modules.
C.) Droid Decay.
D.) To have subcomponants play a larger role in Droid functions and stats.
E.) Have changes made to increase the usage of other Droids, such as the BLL, LE, or Power Droid.
My choices are
C,
B,
E,
C = B
Sodan-droiddreamer
Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:58 am
#34
I disagree and I do so forcefully, but respectfully. You can't have combat droids as part of the poll when they are an unanamed, unarticulated part of the poll. That's like listing droid decay under "droid improvements" and not even mentioning that that's what it is. "New droid types" could be anything and not necessarily include combat droids above lvl 10.
Count me out of this self-fulfilling poll.
As for droid decay, that is largely a DE subsidy with no benefit for the user. Houses, crafting stations, furniture and MANY other items do not decay. Under the proposed changes, customers who were previously considering a product with limited "necessity" now have to consider whether they want to puchase a product they don't really need that will were out over time with casual use. Hell, people complained about having to repaint their droids all the time, now we're asking the devs to make them poof over time. I hope they'll at least last the 2000 calls for a paint job.
Let's get a piece of the combat pie where the expectation of decay exists rather than a nerf for R2D2.
Drashk
Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:13 am
#35
DigitalOne wrote:
What is the level of communication you possess.
I have a bat phone? Seriously, there are two DEVs that I can contact via IM and email address. There is also the Correspondent's forums, but to be honest, I have had better community in game on Test Center; however most of this communication has been in the form of communication with QA and started long before I was Correspondent.
What are you telling them.
At the moment, the general concerns that I see the DE community having with this stage of the CURB, such as the role that current combat droids will have during the CURB and where we stand with future Combat Droids. The other topic that I have brought up is on the changes to Droid Programs. I'm trying to find out more information as to why the system was changed, and if there is some way to rectify the situation.
How much influence do you possess.
Personally, very little. Correspondents echo the concerns of the community and bring issues to the DEVs attention. The only 'influence' that I possess is provided by the information that I bring to the table, that is voiced in the DE community.
There are a few occasions where all of the Correspondents are asked for their input on a matter; however the DEVs are always the ones in charge of what happens.
Point in case, the Merchant and Village credit changes. Much of what was changed was due to all 30+ Correspondents coming together and voicing the community concerns on the topic. Both topics where influenced to some extent by the discussions had in the Correspondent forums; however the DEVs still made decisions that went against Correspondent suggestions, such as how the hologrind credits were given out.
One thing that I did have direct influence over was who was invited to the CURB Sandbox. Each of the people that I chose represent some of the stronger voices within the community and have shown that they have what it takes to speak for different layers of the community. If you don't believe me on this one, ask Straker. He is one of the Sandbox picks.
And where are you taking us. What is your definition of "improvment".
I'm not taking us anywhere. I will always make suggestions. I have been doing this since I first joined this profession. So far, all of the topics that I have brought up are rooted in a few core changes that I think DE needs to be be improved, such as the base Decay system (not the experimentation) tied together with a change to the droid models. The core of increasing the worth of each droid type, so that we aren't as limited as we are, is very important to our profession. Decay by itself will offer little to increase the droid market, since it would have to be non-destructive in nature. If we can bring Droid Decay together with some way of making each and every droid model more attactive to the common user, then we will have improved our profession.
What are you being told by the devs.
Hello. No seriously. That was a topic of today.
What level of influence do they possess.
They make the game.
I'm not sure what else you are looking for with this question. They aren't holding my first born child hostage or brain washing me into doing their bidding. I have an understanding of what its like to be a part of the development process, by seeing a little bit of what goes on and by being in the position that I am in. I also try to understand where they are coming from, even if it doesn't make sense at first look.
And what is thier definition of improvment. And where are they taking us.
The CURB is the current definition of improvement. What ever is on TC is where they are taking us. This is the extent of the information. There aren't any long standing documents of where each profession is headed, or some master doc that lays out the information. As stated earlier, if its not currently being worked on, there simply isn't any information. Even if something is being worked, there usually isnt' any information. The Correspondents program is more a flow of information towards the DEVs, not towards the Correspondents.
If you are frustrate with the lack of information, imagine how I feel. Work has been done to create better communication within the Correspondents program; however when you have 30+ Correspondents and very limited number of DEVs that post, we end up with a lot of unanswered questions. The standard proceedure is to not reply unless there is information to reply with.
The DEVs have done a lot in the last few months to work with the Communities to produce a better game. Major evidence of this was shown during JtL Beta and everything that has happened since then. The bug fixes that have been happening all through out Publish 11.x are also proof of Community feedback resulting in changes.
The Communities are good for offering feedback to the DEVs, but only under more controled environments, such as JtL Beta and in the future during the CURB sandbox and beta. The problem with openning up discussions on subject matter that hasn't even been put into production yet is one of the things that the DEVs are now trying to avoid. This is a direct result from having to change development priorites. This happens in a MMORPG that is so vast. Priorites change. Even within the DE community, priorities change and we are only 1 of over 30 different forums. The DEV team no longer wishes to comment on future development until time has been set aside to make the changes. It leaves no room for false expectations, which is what the people who believe that a comment made on X feature is a specific promise made by the DEV team.
If you don't like this change of tatics, then SOETyrant would be the person to talk to. Be warned though, he has a Rocket Launcher in his office, or so I hear.
DigitalOne
Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:42 am
#36
Alright, that settled alot of my problems. I can put some faith back into you. Frankly your motives are bizzare. I trust you to take us in the right direction, but if you act up you will hear from me. (This is about the best complement i give.) Your to damn cryptic you old .....
Its not your fault, but the DEV vs community gap is a problem, its hard to address this im sure. But in times of development that are as crucial as these it gets frusterating because we have no idea where we are going until the eve of the changes when all minds have been made up. Its like a cop coming to your door saying "Hey, youve been accused, tried, and convicted and sentanced to death, what do you have to say for yourself."
Seriously, your idea for droid decay implementation is good, damned good. It has its problems but its clearer and better than most to date.
Your project DE series is also good and well organized. However i would work with more positive methods of info gathering than drawing from archives. I work with history myself, i know better than to trust it.
Sorry, grad school will turn you into a paranoid nihilist overnight.
Drashk
Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:15 am
#37
Straker_Atrella wrote:
Ok Drashk, I guess I understand your motivation a little bit more. If they come out and say "we are making these changes." You want to know what many of our arguements are so that you can hit the Devs with them right away.
OUTSTANDING idea, I applaud you for your foresight. Seriously.
Thanks. I'm putting my neck out a little on this one, but I think it will be worth it if we can prepare ourselves and be prepared in the process. Something that really 'got to me' during the first time I was Correspondent was the lack of information that I had to provide to the DEV team on the Droid Commander profession response, before the giant misunderstanding with the DEVs on where the DE communtiy stood. A part of me felt that I had failed the communtiy in not being able to have what I needed at my finger tips.
I know that this feeling was incorrect, since it was based mostly around misunderstanding of the subject matter and lack of communication from before I was Correspondent, the first time around. This time I want to have a wealth of knowledge accumlated when 'the big topic' pops up again.
Something else all of this does is it proves to the DEVs that this time around, we will be able to create a better and more positive environment for discussions. During the DC discussions, the DE community became a rather negative environment that did not promote Community / Developer discussions. We need to make sure that next time, that postive environment is around.
However Drashk, it's very hard to keep personal feelings for ideas out of posts. I (and possibly others,) feel like you strongly support some of those ideas. Such as sub-componant experimentation. While you are perfectly entitled to your own opinions, many of us feel otherwise.
I guess you can say that I do strongly support each idea; however I only support the idea when I'm reading the thread. I don't know if that makes any sense, so I will explain a bit about myself.
I am a Libra. I am able to debate almost any arguement from any angle, with strong passion, even if I don't personally believe in what I am debating for. I try to look at different topic in a logical manner and peice together what I believe would be the most logical course of action from the point of view that I am taking.
An Example of this would be the SubComponent experimentation. If you look at it from the point of view of the programs, changing the Durability and Effectiveness Experimentation code would be a logical course of action, to provide for Integrity Experimentation. The code already exisits on almost every single droid component and wouldn't require a vast amount of additional work to change, compared to adding actual Decay coding. This many not be in the best interest of the DE community; however it may be in the best interest of the Development team, since it would fix a long standing bug, with neither line having any type of effect, and it would provided a means of Integrity Experimentation.
This does not mean that this is the route that I think should be taken, but it is the route that I see the DEVs taking. In order to gain information on how the Community would feel about this approach, this is the route that I have framed, even though the route I personally feel the strongest about would be the complete removal of the Mechanism Rating, since it appears to have 0 affect on the crafting process, along with all superfluous experimentation such as Durability Experimentation. Combine the rest of the Decay system with parts of the Droid Model thread and we would end up with Chassis and Deed experimentation being the deciding factors on the Integrity rating and a benefit to our customers, through the ability to have a droid with 6 modules that isn't an R3.
The problem isn't so much that we just have differing opinions, the problem (from my perspective,) is that sometimes it seems like you totally don't see where we are coming from. Disagreeing is fine and one things, inability to understand or consider our point of view is another.
I see where you are coming from, but I wonder if you have see where I have been coming from. Most of the point / counter-point is made from the perspective of where I am at the time. Majority of the Project threads have been made in the tone of what I believe would be DEVs would suggest and not so much what I personally would suggest.
Don't confuse inability to understand with being opposed to a point of view. Much like you are opposed to increasing the value of experimentation on certain aspects of our crafting, I am opposed to the idea that such an ideashould be rejected. You yourself have been guility of this same stance.
If you ever find yourself in a debate where you can't convince the other person that you are right, stop debating. No matter what is said, neither side is likely to yield.
If you can take a moment to stop and think of how to debate the matter from the other sides point of view, try to see if the other side can do the same. If neither side can do this, then the debate is truely over and should be walked away from.
You have made a few comments on how I don't value earning credits through droid sales and that I value the crafting of droids more. I would have to disagree with you. If this was the case, I wouldn't charge the prices that I do. On a server where people have been known to practically give away items, I between5k and 40k for a droid. I sell fully decked out R3s for 35k. If you compare the per capita to credits ratiothat I make and compare the price of a droid to the prices of many other goods on the server and then compare these numbers on TC to the numbers on many Live servers, including your own, I actually make more credits per sale off of my droids then you do.
Assuming that I don't put the same stock into credit gain is as false as assuming that I build droids for the pleasure of it. There was a recent debate on the SWGTest forums where I was arguing against the idea of offering free items to each other on the server. The reason behind it? I like the sound the inbox makes when ever I log on and have in game mail. 95% of the time that my inbox chimes, I have sold something. That is what actually does it for me, as a crafter. The knowledge that I crafted something and placed it on a vendor for a price that I found equal to my in game time and someone agreed with my assesment of time spent and found the product to be of appropriate value.