Droid Engineer Archive

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Drashk wrote:

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Straker_Atrella wrote:

I read everybody elses, but can probably respond best in Drashks post.

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Drashk wrote:

Straker,

I can see some valid points in your arguement, however, as usual, I'm in disagreement with you.

Heh, we have actually been donig pretty good lately, no real arguements. in fact, wasn't it like last month that I was basically accused of being your lapdog?

Let us look at the economy of Live and the changes that have happened in the last year.....

Yes lets, I don't think that will help your case though.....

1. Galactic wide search function




• Community response - Many in the crafting communtiy went into an upheaval about how it was going to ruin the economy and would make price gouging the way to run a business.


• Months later - Prices on many servers have stayed the same or increased and the ability to find goods has increased.
  Everything that was predicted did happen. First on items that quality did not matter on, the bottom fell out of the market. For example, we needed houses for our town, vice having our guild Arch make them, we bought 15 MEDIUM (yes medium) houses for 6k each. Another example is people selling crates of 25 Prob Droids for 5-10k currently.
  The thing is, all of those items would be there regardless of the search function. There have always been and will always be the people who price drastically lower then everyone else. The only difference between now and before is that you only found them through word of mouth or reading the forums.
  Then on items where quality did matter, many lower level crafters quit the game totally. I personally know 3 Weaponsmiths who left for WOW because they couldn't compete. When people are willing to pay, they want the best.
  Thank you for helping to provea point on why the buffs aren't such a bad thing.This statement right here is what the buffs are geared towardsreducing. People leaving the game entirely because they have found a game that is extremely simply to play and takes little to no preparation to play, except for group hunting. The buffs offer the person who has the semi best resources the ability to compete in a market that is dominated by only the best.
  So then the goal should be to make the game exactly like WOW? Where all items are the same? Try playing those other games as a full time crafter. My friends didn't need to quit, they could have competed, they would simply have had to "work" to do it. Anybody can be a top crafter, it just takes time and dedication. This change negates that.


2. Armor crafting process changed with the CU




• Community response - Many in the Armorsmith commmunity went into an upheaval about how the crafting process become so much easier so that prices would drop and quality of resources wouldn't matter as much
  Well people did underestimate people wanting "the best." The difference between 6500 armor and 6800 armor is negligible, but people do feel better with the better armor.
  That is a falacy of human nature and not much can be done about that. . "I want the Uber-riffic, even though the Uber-riffic costs me 1 Billion credits and only offers a .005% increase in stats." People still are buying armor at an accellerated rate and paying more. Right, so should that market go away? People don't "need" 6800 Armor when 6500 will do, the higher is just a luxury market. Yet this change will make everything the same.

• Months later - Prices on many servers have stayed the same or increased and the ability to find goods has increased due to more people being able to offer comparable armor.
  Prices have increased because overall the amount of money in the economy has increased, this is a good thing. Again there are different markets for armors, "good" and "uber" the actual difference may be small, but there is a market for each.
  The overallnumber of credits ineach economy still doesn't effect the person that just joined the game. As you pointed out, a nooblet could sell their BARC speeder to foot the bill, however that is not a justified means to the ends. The new player shouldn't be forced to do this. Why do you think things such as the Katarn Armor were added to the game and armor repair values are bugged and there isn't an extrememly high priority on fixing the bug? Its so that even the new player has the chance to gain a set of armor without having topay a huge sum of credits. Drashk the CU already fixed all of this. A new player can't use the top weapons, he can't wear the good armor. There is already plenty of cheap things for them to buy and use. A new player isn't going to run out and pay 2 million for a set of faction armor he can't even wear. Even if somebody doesn't sell their BARC, they can make plenty of money hunting loot or selling Scout resources. Plus I am of the opinion that not everything good should just be handed to new players. If they easily get everything they need, they now have a "what now" mentality and either quit, or grind for Jedi. I don't see anything wrong at all with a player needing to hunt and save up for a better T21 then the one he currently has.

1. Weapon caps added with the CU




• Community response - Many in theWeaponsmith commmunity went into an upheaval about how the crafting process become so much easier, since weaspons hit a cap,so that prices would drop and quality of resources wouldn't matter as much.
  This is true, however, trule top end weapons are still able to be made using looted componants. These make hitting the caps easier, that way EXP points can be spent on Sac costs. So again we had variety, even though many weapons are close to the same speed and damage, there is a vast difference in SAC costs.


• Months later - Prices on many servers have stayed the same or increased and the ability to find goods has increased due to more people being able to offer comparable weapons.
  Again, prices have gone up because of the amonut of money in the economy, which is good. Yes it is easy for people to find "good" weapons now, but there is still a market for "uber" weapons.
  Again, see above. More lootweapons were added because of the prices that are being charged compared to the ability to find the items readily. Servers vary I guess, but on Scylla if you were willing to look, you could find what you wanted. Again, I don't believe things should just be given away for free. This trend towards instant gratification is bad. There is nothing wrong with having to work for something.

That is 3 instances of where a 'leveling' of the playing field has resulted the market becoming better for both crafter and customer.

That is where I disagree to some extent. I 100% agree that things should be available for the customer and easy to find. However, I also think that hard work should be rewarded. I feel the crafter who spends 20 hours a week searching for resources should be better then the crafter who spends 2 hours.

The only thing that would change here is the feeling of achievement that the Obesessive Compulsive player would get {you and I both know its a matter of OCD }, compared to the larger majority of the player base who is being forced out because they don't have the 20 hours to spend on finding every single uber resource so that they can even hope to compete.

I'll agree that it is OCD, but I do think that hard work should be rewarded. I really don't think anybody is being forced out of anything. Right now there is a market for low level, good, and uber items. The harder you work, the better your items are. If this change goes through.

As I stated earlier....

The complexity should be based on the options of the system and not the amount of time that you have been around.

It's not the amount of time around that I care about, it's the amount of work and time invested. For example, Scyllas old best inert gas was 984, however just recently a 999 type spawned. If I didn't check and track resources daily, then I would have missed out. That means I would have 2 choices. Buy the resource, or use the old 984 gas. Any varience in my product would be negligible, maybe a point or two. However, I spent the time, I shoudl get that point or two.

The people who spend time looking for 900+ resources are still rewarded with what they find. Your past time spent has little or nothing to do with the amount of time that people are forced to spend, so that they can compete against you. You are basing not wanting the change to occur off of the feeling that it will reduce your game, and not make the game better for all othe other people who decide to join the game.

Again, your comments above about people leave because they couldn't compete is a prime example of how not having such a change hurts the overall game in the long run.

The new system means basically, I can harvest like heck for about a month, then never ever harvest again. How can this be good?

• Droid Engineer has this complexity in the way that we can customize different droids.
  So every single stat on every droid should be maxed? All droids with the same modules should be identicle?
  Isn't this how it is right now? Why not let this change occur now, so that it sets up the basis of making droids even more dependent on customization. The belief that crafting should be based off of Experimentation is what harms the overall profession. Experimentation for Droid Engineer makes us just like other Professions. Its our Customization that has always made us a step above other professions and should always be whats sets us apart. Experimentation is only the bonus after the robust system that we already have. If you will note, much of the game has gone towards Customization, over Experimentation.

That's where we have always differed in opinion. You like the fact that all combat droids are maxed. I don't. I think that some products should be better then others, even if just a little bit. Were 80% there now, but that's because DE is broken. HarvestModules, Det Modules and a few others still matter when it comes to exp. What customization comes to a Detonation Droid? None. The only difference is it's explosive power. The relative difference between a 59 and 58 is small, but one is a little better. You propose taking all of that away. On Detonation Droids for example, the only customization would be what color we make them. I want experimentation to matter more not less. Were moving in the wrong direction again.

• Bio Engineers have the complexity in the different DNA they can use. I can't comment on BE.


• Armorsmiths have the complexitybased upon the optional components that theycan add to the armor (Many of whichare going to be added at a later point {Appearance, Enhancements, Etc})
  So again, should all armor be maxed then? That is exactly where this is going, if it's not maxed nobody will buy it, and maxed will be common.
  As you stated above, there are different markets for armors, "good" and "uber" the actual difference may be small, but there is a market for each. Customization of appearance and other additives will be what sets a lot of armor apart. The additves are the key and will be added in future development, as was the original intention behind the way that armor is currently designed. {IE the component boxes that aren't being used atm}

So the answer is to remove the "uber" market by making it all uber? So the fact that somebody makes cool purple armor on their vendor should be their selling point? Is that what we want being a crafter reduced too? What skill is that? What pride? What sets a dedicated crafter apart from one who dabbles in it? Every piece of armor should not be the same.

Chefshave the complexity in the Bio Engineered componenets that they can use and the overall choices of the system used.
Nope, every single Chef who is worth anything will be using high end resources, basically making maxed food. There will be no more variety, and if the food isn't maxed nobody will want it.
Again, see your own comments above about markets. Foods need development time in order to be viable again. They are not nearly as needed as they once where. This is due to not having had Publish time more then anything else.

Wow, Drashk my friend, you are totally wrong. I and my entire guild use far more food then before. There isn't a second when combat is involved that I am not on Blob Candy, Bofa Treats, Tea, Pikatta Pie, Crispic, Pie, and Booster Blue (spice.) For PVP and PVE the difference all of the above make is crazy. I keep a steady stack of Ruby Bile standing by. If you are not using food and spice after the CU, you are fighting at half power.

• Tailors are completely based on their own skill sets at the moment, though the new Tailor system should be in play soon(tm)
  Tailors just need a lot of help.
  Lets wait to see what the next expansion or even the next few publishs hold for Tailor.


• Shipwrights have the complexity in the number of experimentation options that they have.
  SW's are about the only profession that this system will be good for. Their quality level will go through the roof, but they do have variety. At the same time though, there will be a flood of maxed componants. Everybody can make max speed engines for example.
  None of which will be a bad thing for SWs, when they have to compete against a loot market. I agree. I wouldn't mind this change for DE is we had like 8 lines of exp like SW does. I don't want a Modular system liek they have, but more lines of Exp would be awesome. The problem is that the rest of the crafting professions are not like SW.Maybe they will be someday, but they are not now. Until they are, there is no reason to break them further.

Weaponsmiths are currently the only profession that currently don't have a knonwn plan of customization that would make their profession more complex, other then the vast number of weapons that they can offer. They do have some customization, based on optional components, however the caps to have some play on this. There was talk about increasing the outward appearance of the weapons, based on different components added.

Weaponsmiths do get hit very hard by this. You wont even need low quality loot componants like tissues and such to max weapons now. So not only will all weapons be the same damage and speed, they will also have low SACs. I see even more WS's leaving in the near future.

I see more Weaponsmiths being added as well. And I also see a greater number of Weaponsmiths in the long run, since it will actually open up the market to a greater number of people who can compete with each other, instead of the 5 - 6 Weaponsmiths who dominate entire server markets.

At first yes. In the short term you are right, but think in the long term. No longer are there 5-6 people making maxed weapons, now there are 30 people making maxed weapons. Vendors are flooded with maxed items, prices drop. There is far more supply then demand. The same people who now can "compete" find out they are not making any money at all. True, they don't have to work either, because it's so simple to make maxed stuff, but they arn't making money either, and there is no challenge.

Some may stay crafters, others will quit, because now SWG is just like every other game out there. Many will realise that again comabt makes more money. So in the end, you will have 5-6 people dominating the server again. Yet the difference will be those 5-6 people wont be those who are willing to work harder, they are those who don't care that crafting is brainless.

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Drashk, we disagree on a few key principles. You "seem" to believe that crafted items should be cheap. I believe that the price for crafted items should be based upon the amount of money in the economy. Half of what a Combatent earns should go back out into equipment.Only thencan Crafters have the amount of credits needed to compete for items as well.

Half of which Combat Toons is the question. I'm not in the belief that items should be cheap. I'm in the understanding that making items not finacially available to starting players, unless they sell their purchased content, such as the BARC speeder or find an uber loot that is pretty rare, is bad for the overall game. It makes it a lot harder for new people join the game. If this doesn't change, we will only see more and more loot drop items and quest items that complete replace the need for crafting.

Right now, you can log in and find just about any new item you need on the Bazaar. You don't "need" maxed items as a new player. Those should be soemthing you work towards.

This isn't an SOE line of thought. This is a Lucas Arts train of thought that won't be stopped. We have to face it that LA sets the development path of the game. If LA sees the reason behind people leaving the game after a very short time is due to the 'cost of living', what do you think will happen to the player based economy?

Yep, they look at WOW and people going to WOW, so want to turn this into WOW. Totally ignoring and destroying the things that make SWG good.

Why do you think the starter ships were given hyperspace capability? Why do you think that galaxy wide search was put into place? Why do you think more items have become loot drops? Why do you think decay of items is being trickled out, either through bugs or design? Its all because all of these things allow for a way for people to jump into the game and not have to spend all of their time hunting for credits. It allows players the ability to get the items that they need to play the game, without feeling like they are at work, grinding way for their daily earnings.

Yep, it also makes it to where you can't earn a "good" living as a decent crafter. I'm all for making things easier for people to find, and the game to be easy to play. If you need a a Scout Blaster, go to the vendor search and look them up. You may find some them ranging from 5k to 500k, with a varience in quality. You simply buy what you can afford. If you want the better one you work for it. You don't "need" the better one though. You want a system where all Scout Blasters are 5k, so they have no reason to work for anything.

In the end, this is still a game and should not be looked at as work, which you yourself have called it.

Yep. It is a game, a game that you are not ever suppossed to "win." However, part of the Journey is suppossed to be getting better equipment. If in the first month you have the best possible in the game you take away half of the journey. Is there really enough content in SWG to keep people interested? I don't think the game should be "work." I do think that the amonut of time and effort put in though should have a reward.

For example, about a month and a half ago, I had 180 million credits banked. All of it made from selling Droids for 2 years, all of my money comes from Droids. I started working on my Jedi suit, after quite a few purchases, all of my 180 million is gone. My suit is about 75% done. Now 180 million may seem like a lot of money and it is, but I was constantly on a tight budget, and outbid by combatents who seem to have limitless funds. The simply fact of the SWG economy is that it is far more profitable to make money from fighting then from crafting. I have never been able to wrap my head around your viewpoint that Combatents should get to hold onto more money and crafters less.

Its not my viewpoint. Its my understanding of how the game is run. The game is based on Combat and always has been. Combat is the jump in point for the vast majority of the game. The crafters are the minority due to the extended amounts of time that are needed to even begin to compete. The reason that crafting as a whole has take what is considered hit after hit is due to the miniscule numbers due to crafting being reduced to only the people who are Obessisive about running their on-line business. We have to face the honest human fact that this is what drives many of us to constantly play the crafting game.

Crafters have more goods and services then any combat toon could ever hope for. You may have had 180 million credits, but how many millions of resources do you have? How many structures do you own? How much have you spent on resources? How much have you spent on upkeep? Compare the average crafters net worth against the average combat persons net worth. Who do you really think has the most 'money'?

No contest, the Combatent wins that. Yes I have millions of resources, some I harvested, others I boguht and paid for. That money went to combatents. This publish will make my millions of resources pretty much useless, my 25 and 50 cpu resources will now be 5 cpu resources. So by your own arguement, this is reducing a crafters net worth by a lot. I know Combatents with vendors and housesfull of Skill tapes and other loot items. The value on those items far exceeds my resources and other things. This patch will just ensure that I never have any hope of buynig any more tapes. Well unless I start to fight for a living.

I don't want this to be a game where every piece of armor is the same, where every chef sells the same maxed food. I want a game where the harder a crafter works the better the product is. Work should equal benefit.

Work, work, work. Again, it comes down to opening up the market for a larger slice of the community to join. Your point of view is that only those that spend hundreds of hours gathering should be a part of the competition. This only ensures that there are less crafters. Less crafters means that less time is spent on fixing the professions. Less time fixing the professions means less people joining the profession and more people leaving the profession. All of this equals less people using the goods. Does this sound familar to you?

Why do Combat professions recieve more production time then non-Combat professions? The simple and honest answer is that more people play combat professions. Droid Engineer, Tailor, Chef, Architect, and pet Bio-Engineer are all niche professions. None of these professions are a huge benifactor to combat, the way that Armorsmith,Shipwrightand Weaponsmith are.

Unless the crafting profession increase our numbers, we will continue to lose production time. This is a simple fact.

Changes such as this offer agreat benifit to those starting out, so that they can continue to play and add to the crafting population. It may be of a negative to existing crafters, however for the health of the overall game and the increase in the overall crafting community, it is a very healthy change.

So why not just give people crafting skill points and combat skill points? That way there are just as many crafters as combatents. I agree that crafters are a minority, and receive less time due to that, no matter what far more people will prefer combat over crafting. Yet there are types of people who enjoy the complexity of crafting, the answer to the problem isn't chasing them away and making crafting brainless.

With Combat, the more missions you run, the more quests you do, the more loot mobs you kill determines how much money you make. The harder you "work," the more you get. Why should this be different with crafters?

What will thenew system do to Scouts and Rangers?Right now people will pay 50 cpu for high end inorganics, after this change goes through, when all you need is 910+ thye will be lucky to get 10 cpu.

First you talk about how crafters take the short end of the credit stick and now you are talking about making it so that you have to keep that short end?

Why are Scouts and Rangers making 50cpu in the first place? Why should 50cpu be a standard?Anyone with Novive Scout and a group can easily harvest 2k units of in less then 20 minutes. Are you suggesting that people should be able to make 100k in 20 minutes? You're not exactly making sense on this point, though I understand what it is that you are trying to say.

Because it is allcircular. If an Armorsmith sells a suit of armor for 600k, lets say he spent 200k on resources for it, some of which was inorganics from Rangers or Scouts. Let's say he paid 50 cpu. So the Armorsmith made 400k profit. Now that seems insane. Yet now look at what that armor is used for. From missions alone, a combatent can make that money back, then add loot and quest items to sell. During the lifetime of that armor, it's not a stretch to say you could make 5 million plus in credits. That is far more then you paid in supplies. That means the Armor was not overpriced.

I fail to see how it is good for the game if the Scout got paid 5 cpu, and the crafter got 100k for the armor, but the Combatent still makes 5 million plus.

People will contiune to pay Scouts and Rangers for harvesting. As usual, with any of the crafting changes that occur, this example is blown out of proportions. By making crafting more accessable, suddenly the demand for hide has increased, not decreased. Though the need to buy only the very best could decrease slightly, the need for hides overall will increase, since the doors would be open for more people to join Armorsmith.

Drashk you are wrong man. How will the need for hide increase? Only so many weapons are needed, armor only decays so fast. Just because there are more weapons doesnt mean I will replace my stuff before it wears out. This means there is only a finite amount of things to sell. Yes more people will be making those things, but more things wont sell.

The supply of "good" hide will go up, 910 will be all you need. When supply goes up, demand goes down. It's simple economics. When demand drops, what people are willnig to pay will drop. Eventually people will have bank accounts full of resources that will max with buffs. At that point they may need a Scout every few months.

The overall cpu might tapper down slightly, however the demand will still be there, which will balance out the overall pricing.

Again I disagree, the amonut of items used will still be the same.

Diversity is good,if we get any farther away from a diverse player based economy then we are right now, then we may as wellmake it like other games. Give all players combat skills as well as crafting skills, keeping the 2 seperate will defeat the purpose.That's where this all looks like it's going.

What you see as killing the player based economy, I see as keeping it alive. If changes like this do not happen, so that more goods are made available and the crafting professions are made more accessable to the general community, we will back ourselves into a dead end. More and more loot drops will be added and less and less time will be devoted to crafting, due to the constant low number of crafters.

Drashk, what items are not available? I can find anything I want, at either low or high prices. I simpyl can't beleive that on other servers people are not able to find items. I can believe that those items are not handed to them when they log on though, they may need to look.

Production time goes first to the professions that have the greatest numbers. Unless the number of crafters increases, crafting will always take second class status.

Yes, some crafters may very well leave when this change goes in, however there will be a lot more that can now take their place and compete in a market that gives many more people a chance to survive in.

So why not fix it to attract new crafters instead of dumbing it down more? That's how you fix it, don't break it more. This change gives the lazy as much of a chance as those will to put in more effort. The combat system doesn't do that, why should crafting?

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A lot of what you base your arguement on is the 'Me' factor and the belief that you should be rewarded for being a senior crafter. In a world based economy, this is very true. However this is a game based economy where people who stay around for more then 9 months are the exception and not the majority. Anyone that stays in the game longer then 12 months is here because they are Obsessive about the game. This is all and good, however unless new people join the game and stay longer then 1 - 2 months at a time, the population will dwindle away.

The goal should be to get EVERYBODY to stay, not just obsessive people. You do that by giving them goals and things to do. That goal could be quests, items, credits, better gear, or even crafting a better product. By making all of that simple and readily available, then you just ensure people will leave.

With Combat, the more fighting you do, the more you get. You kill more loot mobs then somebody else, you will make more money. I just fail to see whyeffort should not be rewarded as well.

The #1 reason that I see for people leaving the crafting game, besides bugs, is due to the resource game.A large majority of people who find crafting intriguing are not able to compete in the crafting market due to the resource game. They either don't have the huge amounts of time needed to play catch up with those that have been crafters since the dawn of time or can't get a foot into the market, because of the same people.

At the same time, many of the people who "do" craft do it because of the resoruce game.

The buffs will help to alleviate some of this stranglehold and will make it so that more people are able to get into the game and become a part of the community. Currently, many of the crafters that dominate a market are alienating against the new crafters that want to join the game and have that same feeling of achievement. This is thefundimental change at stake. Whether or not wewant to embrace and understand thatthere is a selfishness involved innot wanting this change to go in is at the heart of the matter. Do we want to allow it so that more people can get into the game and have thesame feeling that we derivefrom hearing/seeing the gmail from a sale? Isn't that what this resistance to change is all about? Not wanting to share that feeling with others because we want to be 'on top'.

It has nothing to do with selfishness. It has to do with effort equaling reward. Any player who expects to make maxed items within a month is just as silly as somebody who fights for a month and wants to compete against somebody who has been PVPing for 2 years. The vertern will have a better template, more skill, and better equipment That isn't how life works, nor should it be how this game should work. If that is what they want they should go play a FPS game. In a MMO that has long term character development, there needs to be an effort equaling reward system. We have it for combat, but we lose more of it every day with crafting.

Maybe I'm odd for wanting to see thecrafting population increase through a slight deminished returns on my part. I just see it as being healthy for the game as a whole, and not as a loss.

Long term is the problem. In the end all items will be simple clones and there will be totally no point in crafting. According to your argument, the next logical step is just make everybody a crafter just like other games.

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Poti's Protection ~"~ Armor with no artificial additives of any kind!

Poti's Protection ~"~ Armor with no artificial additives of any kind!

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Red-Dwarf wrote:

*Call's Staker's bluff*

Go on - find a copper on Scylla now that's 910CD and 910OQ. Then do it again next week, and the week after and see how long before you can't.

I did a sweep of swgcraft (which I admit is far from perfect and some servers are more up to date than others) and found the following:

Reviewing for any copper with CD 900 and OQ 900:

NONE are currently available now on any galaxy (having reviewed the currently listed spawns there are a handful with 900+ on one stat (including a 991CD polysteel on TC now) and another handful with 800+ on both stats.

The galaxy with the most coppers meeting the criteria is Tempest with 7 coppers. The one with the least is Chimeara with just 1 (that's hardly "any given time")

The total coppers meeting that criteria across all galaxies is 102, assuming an average spawn of 7 days and the game up for 720 days then that is not even 1 copper with CD and OQ over 900 in spawn on ONE galaxy on every day the game has been up (although I accept the gaps in SWGCraft mean it is more than likely 1 copper is in spawn pretty much any day, just only one 1 maybe 2 of the galaxies, and it would be rather expensive to keep transferring a toon around to get resources from one galaxy to another)

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