Droid Engineer Archive

Poti's Protection ~"~ Armor with no artificial additives of any kind!

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Straker_Atrella wrote:

I read everybody elses, but can probably respond best in Drashks post.

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Drashk wrote:

Straker,

I can see some valid points in your arguement, however, as usual, I'm in disagreement with you.

Heh, we have actually been donig pretty good lately, no real arguements. in fact, wasn't it like last month that I was basically accused of being your lapdog?

Let us look at the economy of Live and the changes that have happened in the last year.....

Yes lets, I don't think that will help your case though.....

1. Galactic wide search function




• Community response - Many in the crafting communtiy went into an upheaval about how it was going to ruin the economy and would make price gouging the way to run a business.


• Months later - Prices on many servers have stayed the same or increased and the ability to find goods has increased.
  Everything that was predicted did happen. First on items that quality did not matter on, the bottom fell out of the market. For example, we needed houses for our town, vice having our guild Arch make them, we bought 15 MEDIUM (yes medium) houses for 6k each. Another example is people selling crates of 25 Prob Droids for 5-10k currently.
  The thing is, all of those items would be there regardless of the search function. There have always been and will always be the people who price drastically lower then everyone else. The only difference between now and before is that you only found them through word of mouth or reading the forums.
  Then on items where quality did matter, many lower level crafters quit the game totally. I personally know 3 Weaponsmiths who left for WOW because they couldn't compete. When people are willing to pay, they want the best.
  Thank you for helping to provea point on why the buffs aren't such a bad thing.This statement right here is what the buffs are geared towardsreducing. People leaving the game entirely because they have found a game that is extremely simply to play and takes little to no preparation to play, except for group hunting. The buffs offer the person who has the semi best resources the ability to compete in a market that is dominated by only the best.
  


2. Armor crafting process changed with the CU




• Community response - Many in the Armorsmith commmunity went into an upheaval about how the crafting process become so much easier so that prices would drop and quality of resources wouldn't matter as much
  Well people did underestimate people wanting "the best." The difference between 6500 armor and 6800 armor is negligible, but people do feel better with the better armor.
  That is a falacy of human nature and not much can be done about that. . "I want the Uber-riffic, even though the Uber-riffic costs me 1 Billion credits and only offers a .005% increase in stats." People still are buying armor at an accellerated rate and paying more.


• Months later - Prices on many servers have stayed the same or increased and the ability to find goods has increased due to more people being able to offer comparable armor.
  Prices have increased because overall the amount of money in the economy has increased, this is a good thing. Again there are different markets for armors, "good" and "uber" the actual difference may be small, but there is a market for each.
  The overallnumber of credits ineach economy still doesn't effect the person that just joined the game. As you pointed out, a nooblet could sell their BARC speeder to foot the bill, however that is not a justified means to the ends. The new player shouldn't be forced to do this. Why do you think things such as the Katarn Armor were added to the game and armor repair values are bugged and there isn't an extrememly high priority on fixing the bug? Its so that even the new player has the chance to gain a set of armor without having topay a huge sum of credits.


3. Weapon caps added with the CU




• Community response - Many in theWeaponsmith commmunity went into an upheaval about how the crafting process become so much easier, since weaspons hit a cap,so that prices would drop and quality of resources wouldn't matter as much.
  This is true, however, trule top end weapons are still able to be made using looted componants. These make hitting the caps easier, that way EXP points can be spent on Sac costs. So again we had variety, even though many weapons are close to the same speed and damage, there is a vast difference in SAC costs.


• Months later - Prices on many servers have stayed the same or increased and the ability to find goods has increased due to more people being able to offer comparable weapons.
  Again, prices have gone up because of the amonut of money in the economy, which is good. Yes it is easy for people to find "good" weapons now, but there is still a market for "uber" weapons.
  Again, see above. More lootweapons were added because of the prices that are being charged compared to the ability to find the items readily.

That is 3 instances of where a 'leveling' of the playing field has resulted the market becoming better for both crafter and customer.

That is where I disagree to some extent. I 100% agree that things should be available for the customer and easy to find. However, I also think that hard work should be rewarded. I feel the crafter who spends 20 hours a week searching for resources should be better then the crafter who spends 2 hours.

The only thing that would change here is the feeling of achievement that the Obesessive Compulsive player would get {you and I both know its a matter of OCD }, compared to the larger majority of the player base who is being forced out because they don't have the 20 hours to spend on finding every single uber resource so that they can even hope to compete.

As I stated earlier....

The complexity should be based on the options of the system and not the amount of time that you have been around.

It's not the amount of time around that I care about, it's the amount of work and time invested. For example, Scyllas old best inert gas was 984, however just recently a 999 type spawned. If I didn't check and track resources daily, then I would have missed out. That means I would have 2 choices. Buy the resource, or use the old 984 gas. Any varience in my product would be negligible, maybe a point or two. However, I spent the time, I shoudl get that point or two.

The people who spend time looking for 900+ resources are still rewarded with what they find. Your past time spent has little or nothing to do with the amount of time that people are forced to spend, so that they can compete against you. You are basing not wanting the change to occur off of the feeling that it will reduce your game, and not make the game better for all othe other people who decide to join the game.

Again, your comments above about people leave because they couldn't compete is a prime example of how not having such a change hurts the overall game in the long run.

The new system means basically, I can harvest like heck for about a month, then never ever harvest again. How can this be good?

• Droid Engineer has this complexity in the way that we can customize different droids.
  So every single stat on every droid should be maxed? All droids with the same modules should be identicle?
  Isn't this how it is right now? Why not let this change occur now, so that it sets up the basis of making droids even more dependent on customization. The belief that crafting should be based off of Experimentation is what harms the overall profession. Experimentation for Droid Engineer makes us just like other Professions. Its our Customization that has always made us a step above other professions and should always be whats sets us apart. Experimentation is only the bonus after the robust system that we already have. If you will note, much of the game has gone towards Customization, over Experimentation.


• Bio Engineers have the complexity in the different DNA they can use. I can't comment on BE.


• Armorsmiths have the complexitybased upon the optional components that theycan add to the armor (Many of whichare going to be added at a later point {Appearance, Enhancements, Etc})
  So again, should all armor be maxed then? That is exactly where this is going, if it's not maxed nobody will buy it, and maxed will be common.
  As you stated above, there are different markets for armors, "good" and "uber" the actual difference may be small, but there is a market for each. Customization of appearance and other additives will be what sets a lot of armor apart. The additves are the key and will be added in future development, as was the original intention behind the way that armor is currently designed. {IE the component boxes that aren't being used atm}


• Chefshave the complexity in the Bio Engineered componenets that they can use and the overall choices of the system used.
  Nope, every single Chef who is worth anything will be using high end resources, basically making maxed food. There will be no more variety, and if the food isn't maxed nobody will want it.
  Again, see your own comments above about markets. Foods need development time in order to be viable again. They are not nearly as needed as they once where. This is due to not having had Publish time more then anything else.


• Tailors are completely based on their own skill sets at the moment, though the new Tailor system should be in play soon(tm)
  Tailors just need a lot of help.
  Lets wait to see what the next expansion or even the next few publishs hold for Tailor.


• Shipwrights have the complexity in the number of experimentation options that they have.
  SW's are about the only profession that this system will be good for. Their quality level will go through the roof, but they do have variety. At the same time though, there will be a flood of maxed componants. Everybody can make max speed engines for example.
  None of which will be a bad thing for SWs, when they have to compete against a loot market.

Weaponsmiths are currently the only profession that currently don't have a knonwn plan of customization that would make their profession more complex, other then the vast number of weapons that they can offer. They do have some customization, based on optional components, however the caps to have some play on this. There was talk about increasing the outward appearance of the weapons, based on different components added.

Weaponsmiths do get hit very hard by this. You wont even need low quality loot componants like tissues and such to max weapons now. So not only will all weapons be the same damage and speed, they will also have low SACs. I see even more WS's leaving in the near future.

I see more Weaponsmiths being added as well. And I also see a greater number of Weaponsmiths in the long run, since it will actually open up the market to a greater number of people who can compete with each other, instead of the 5 - 6 Weaponsmiths who dominate entire server markets.

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Drashk, we disagree on a few key principles. You "seem" to believe that crafted items should be cheap. I believe that the price for crafted items should be based upon the amount of money in the economy. Half of what a Combatent earns should go back out into equipment.Only thencan Crafters have the amount of credits needed to compete for items as well.

Half of which Combat Toons is the question. I'm not in the belief that items should be cheap. I'm in the understanding that making items not finacially available to starting players, unless they sell their purchased content, such as the BARC speeder or find an uber loot that is pretty rare, is bad for the overall game. It makes it a lot harder for new people join the game. If this doesn't change, we will only see more and more loot drop items and quest items that complete replace the need for crafting.

This isn't an SOE line of thought. This is a Lucas Arts train of thought that won't be stopped. We have to face it that LA sets the development path of the game. If LA sees the reason behind people leaving the game after a very short time is due to the 'cost of living', what do you think will happen to the player based economy?

Why do you think the starter ships were given hyperspace capability? Why do you think that galaxy wide search was put into place? Why do you think more items have become loot drops? Why do you think decay of items is being trickled out, either through bugs or design? Its all because all of these things allow for a way for people to jump into the game and not have to spend all of their time hunting for credits. It allows players the ability to get the items that they need to play the game, without feeling like they are at work, grinding way for their daily earnings.

In the end, this is still a game and should not be looked at as work, which you yourself have called it.

For example, about a month and a half ago, I had 180 million credits banked. All of it made from selling Droids for 2 years, all of my money comes from Droids. I started working on my Jedi suit, after quite a few purchases, all of my 180 million is gone. My suit is about 75% done. Now 180 million may seem like a lot of money and it is, but I was constantly on a tight budget, and outbid by combatents who seem to have limitless funds. The simply fact of the SWG economy is that it is far more profitable to make money from fighting then from crafting. I have never been able to wrap my head around your viewpoint that Combatents should get to hold onto more money and crafters less.

Its not my viewpoint. Its my understanding of how the game is run. The game is based on Combat and always has been. Combat is the jump in point for the vast majority of the game. The crafters are the minority due to the extended amounts of time that are needed to even begin to compete. The reason that crafting as a whole has take what is considered hit after hit is due to the miniscule numbers due to crafting being reduced to only the people who are Obessisive about running their on-line business. We have to face the honest human fact that this is what drives many of us to constantly play the crafting game.

Crafters have more goods and services then any combat toon could ever hope for. You may have had 180 million credits, but how many millions of resources do you have? How many structures do you own? How much have you spent on resources? How much have you spent on upkeep? Compare the average crafters net worth against the average combat persons net worth. Who do you really think has the most 'money'?

I don't want this to be a game where every piece of armor is the same, where every chef sells the same maxed food. I want a game where the harder a crafter works the better the product is. Work should equal benefit.

Work, work, work. Again, it comes down to opening up the market for a larger slice of the community to join. Your point of view is that only those that spend hundreds of hours gathering should be a part of the competition. This only ensures that there are less crafters. Less crafters means that less time is spent on fixing the professions. Less time fixing the professions means less people joining the profession and more people leaving the profession. All of this equals less people using the goods. Does this sound familar to you?

Why do Combat professions recieve more production time then non-Combat professions? The simple and honest answer is that more people play combat professions. Droid Engineer, Tailor, Chef, Architect, and pet Bio-Engineer are all niche professions. None of these professions are a huge benifactor to combat, the way that Armorsmith,Shipwrightand Weaponsmith are.

Unless the crafting profession increase our numbers, we will continue to lose production time. This is a simple fact.

Changes such as this offer agreat benifit to those starting out, so that they can continue to play and add to the crafting population. It may be of a negative to existing crafters, however for the health of the overall game and the increase in the overall crafting community, it is a very healthy change.

What will thenew system do to Scouts and Rangers?Right now people will pay 50 cpu for high end inorganics, after this change goes through, when all you need is 910+ thye will be lucky to get 10 cpu.

First you talk about how crafters take the short end of the credit stick and now you are talking about making it so that you have to keep that short end?

Why are Scouts and Rangers making 50cpu in the first place? Why should 50cpu be a standard?Anyone with Novive Scout and a group can easily harvest 2k units of in less then 20 minutes. Are you suggesting that people should be able to make 100k in 20 minutes? You're not exactly making sense on this point, though I understand what it is that you are trying to say.

People will contiune to pay Scouts and Rangers for harvesting. As usual, with any of the crafting changes that occur, this example is blown out of proportions. By making crafting more accessable, suddenly the demand for hide has increased, not decreased. Though the need to buy only the very best could decrease slightly, the need for hides overall will increase, since the doors would be open for more people to join Armorsmith.

The overall cpu might tapper down slightly, however the demand will still be there, which will balance out the overall pricing.

Diversity is good,if we get any farther away from a diverse player based economy then we are right now, then we may as wellmake it like other games. Give all players combat skills as well as crafting skills, keeping the 2 seperate will defeat the purpose.That's where this all looks like it's going.

What you see as killing the player based economy, I see as keeping it alive. If changes like this do not happen, so that more goods are made available and the crafting professions are made more accessable to the general community, we will back ourselves into a dead end. More and more loot drops will be added and less and less time will be devoted to crafting, due to the constant low number of crafters.

Production time goes first to the professions that have the greatest numbers. Unless the number of crafters increases, crafting will always take second class status.

Yes, some crafters may very well leave when this change goes in, however there will be a lot more that can now take their place and compete in a market that gives many more people a chance to survive in.

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A lot of what you base your arguement on is the 'Me' factor and the belief that you should be rewarded for being a senior crafter. In a world based economy, this is very true. However this is a game based economy where people who stay around for more then 9 months are the exception and not the majority. Anyone that stays in the game longer then 12 months is here because they are Obsessive about the game. This is all and good, however unless new people join the game and stay longer then 1 - 2 months at a time, the population will dwindle away.

The #1 reason that I see for people leaving the crafting game, besides bugs, is due to the resource game.A large majority of people who find crafting intriguing are not able to compete in the crafting market due to the resource game. They either don't have the huge amounts of time needed to play catch up with those that have been crafters since the dawn of time or can't get a foot into the market, because of the same people.

The buffs will help to alleviate some of this stranglehold and will make it so that more people are able to get into the game and become a part of the community. Currently, many of the crafters that dominate a market are alienating against the new crafters that want to join the game and have that same feeling of achievement. This is thefundimental change at stake. Whether or not wewant to embrace and understand thatthere is a selfishness involved innot wanting this change to go in is at the heart of the matter. Do we want to allow it so that more people can get into the game and have thesame feeling that we derivefrom hearing/seeing the gmail from a sale? Isn't that what this resistance to change is all about? Not wanting to share that feeling with others because we want to be 'on top'.

Maybe I'm odd for wanting to see thecrafting population increase through a slight deminished returns on my part. I just see it as being healthy for the game as a whole, and not as a loss.

Poti's Protection ~"~ Armor with no artificial additives of any kind!