Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Hey TK can you get an answer to this? It is driving me nuts...
Ectopic
Tue Jun 15, 2004 5:02 pm
#27
Malitevv wrote:
Ectopic wrote:
It's possible that the assembly roll at the initial crafting phase determines the percentage of the resource cap that can be reached with full experimentation.
Message Edited by Ectopic on 06-15-2004 04:40 PM
we know that is possible, but all three of us has been testing that hypothesis and it never happens that way.
Well, as far as I'm concerned, it has happened. Now, granted, I have not seen the droid, and have noconclusive evidence that it exists. But, I have beena DE on naritus since the beginning, and I've watched Erillion on the forums, since he started selling droids, and I have no reason to doubt him.
It would, however, be nice if he posted a screenie 
Malitevv
Tue Jun 15, 2004 5:31 pm
#28
true. but one example out of so many failed tries to show a relationship between the assembly and the max possible experimentation percentage suggests a bug caused that one example to happen more than anything else.
The only way his result could be consistent with my own tests is if very high assembly bonuses are required to see this "effect" AND if the relationship between this "effect" and the assembly bonus is disturbingly non-linear. But one problem there is that Gribnitz appears to have higher assembly bonuses than Erillion does, AND he is using better resources than Enrillion used. If there is anything to this beyond a random bug, Gribnitzin the very least would have tobe able to reproduce it. And gribnitz has definitely been trying pretty hard. 
Handsnake
Tue Jun 15, 2004 9:18 pm
#29
The weaponsmith forum has discussions of a crafting bug they noticed. This bug was hitting during the assembly process. The assembly would hit a significantly higher start percentage than previously, and the experimentation would not progress as they had expected.
I just picked up MWS and have noticed that indeed there is a startling difference in the variances in assembly and in experimentation. Some experimentation was contra-intuitive, in that I threw in 5 bubbles and got an amazing, hit the rest and ended up filling all but 2 bubbles. Next run I had 2 bubble experimentations at great, and ended up filling all the bubbles just 1 or 2 at a time. During this experimentation phase I got consistently good and great results (no amazings) and ended up with a much better result with much lower successes.
This ain't right.
I then went to do a new harv module and guess what? After weeks of having consistent 26% on my assembly (using the exact same resources), suddenly the numbers were all over the friggin map.
I will repeat tomorrow, but could you all check it a bit? Assembly shouldn't be that volatile, it seems to me. Or I might just be seeing something that I just fudged over previously.
Erillion
Wed Jun 16, 2004 1:06 am
#30
>>>>>
or he didn't really achieve 114. Until I've seen the droid, or someone else verifies that the droid actually exists on Naritus, I will remain skeptical.
/shrug
>>>>>
/sarcasm on
thanks for the high amount of trust
/sarcasm off
Let me know to which e-mail adress you want me to send a screenie of
a) the manufac scheme for the harvest module (with the resources and stats mentioned on it )
b) the resource stacks used to craft it
c) the droid (or any of his one dozen companions I was crafting lately .. Harvest 114 HAM 4500 )
d) the tool used
e) the crafting station used
f) the food used
g) the drinks used
h) me in hotpants dancing "ice Ice baby"in a cheap Helios-Boys rip off
You choose what screenies you want :-)
Sorry .... i did not make screenies of the assembly process, because at that time I did not think I would need them for any kind of documentation later. Yes, I used the resources mentioned and no other. Thats why in my initial post I gave exactly the information needed for DEs to recreate it. And as I said numerous times before ... this is NOT an instant gratification process .. I handcrafted 200-300 harvester modules with varying materials and procedures before I got this result. And often I used rather expensive crafting food ... so do not expect to get similiar results with 20 tries or so (unless you are a VERY lucky person).
The droids are in use ... ask their owners on Naritus e.g. Drala, Marra, Eter, Keet, Ae'linor and more others. You can buy one ... I put one on my vendor Cybot Galactica Droids (Lok, city of LoknLoad, see waypoint on planetary map, vendors, droids).
A recreation of the crafting process.
(using tapes for experimentation ( +12 = 1 extra point) and assembly (+10 ) in a research center with a tool 14.95 % and a crafting station 43.19 % (I think)).
a) Take resources Oni, Lufini and Grikobium
b) Eat P. Cake +12 assembly
c) assemble
d) Get maximum possible assembly result (dunno now what the exact wording is ... is it "amazing" ? ... "great" is the usual result)
e) percentage of assembled item was 3 % higher than the usual one (I am talking about item quality)
f) Drink Bespine Port + 9 experimenation
g) Experimented on the line important for harvest rating .. using at first 7 points, then the rest to fill the row ... that was 3 I think ... and used the last one on one of the other rows). It needs to be said that whatever materials I used I was always able to max out the experimentation to the maximum value
h) with this exceptional crafting the percentage of the end result was HIGHER than the previous attempts. I THINK by exactly the value that the assembled item was better than the standard assembly. Thats why I assumbed that the total percentage = assembly percentage + experimentation percentage. And only the experimentation percentage is influenced (and capped) by resource quality. When I speak of percentages here I always mean that experimentation row relevant to the rating of the module (thats the middle one of memory serves right).
i) store manufac schematic
----
j) go kill some weaponsmith and pry the Oni steel from his cold dead fingers (he wont give it easily, mind you !, so prepare for a fight) .... money is NOT enough to get a large stack of Oni ...
k) lie, steal and blackmail to get some Lufini and Grikobium (or pay a bundle)
l) start factory run
m) Sell droids
n) become rich (NOT :-)
OK .... from reading many of the other posts I got the impression that when people tried to recreate this, they did NOT regularily use crafting food and did only craft a limited amount of samples (yes, I know .. these kind of resources are expensive ! .. no one knows that better than me :-) . If this IS a crafting bug, my guess is that its either
a) a statistical anomaly only appearing in a large sample (in my case between 200 and 300 modules)
b) an anomaly related to use of crafting food
It could be that the crafting food shifts the middle of the assembly percentage result bell curve to higher values ... and the top end of this bell curve could then be HIGHER than before ... but you only reach it in 5 % of all assemblies. I think someone in a previous post meant this with his " 100 % --> 105 %" explanation. SOE seems to use lots of bell curves in crafting and slicing ... many average results, and less and less resultson the higher and lower end.
So - if someone REALLY wants to recreate this - I recommend to
a) Make a sample of AT LEAST21 items (5% of 20 = 1 item) ... 100 are better
b) Use crafting food while crafting (expensive .. I know :-)
Well ... thats all I remember about making this item ...
Have fun
Delos Stardust
Erillion
Wed Jun 16, 2004 1:18 am
#31
>>>>
this is too random, irrational, and non-intuitiveto be intentional IMO.
>>>>
If my theory is correct , than its neither random, counter-intuitive nor irrational. Only RARE (5 % or less).
Better assembly gives higher assembled item percentage. It can be that this percentage is NOT capped by resource quality. It can also be that the use of crafting food allows a HIGHER assembly result than before (shifting result bell curve to higher values). One of these two reasons could explain what happened.
On top of that you experiment -- and the maximum you can get here is influenced and capped by resource quality. About any master crafter achieving a non-failure experimentation result can maxx out this experimentation (I did it with all my modules).
The total quality of the item is determined by the sum of the assembly and experimentation result. If the assembly was exceptional - better than normal - then the finished product can be significantly better than the standard product.
Have fun
Delos
Malitevv
Wed Jun 16, 2004 12:55 pm
#32
it is starting to sound like there is a bug that sometimes kicks in during the assembly step and causes some "phantom" percentage points to get mixed in;percentage points which aren't accounted for when the cap on experimentation is applied and thus end up adding to more than it is suppossed to if you happen to hit that cap.
this is too random, irrational, and non-intuitiveto be intentional IMO.
Gribnitz
Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:10 pm
#33
Erillion wrote:
If my theory is correct , than its neither random, counter-intuitive nor irrational. Only RARE (5 % or less).
I don't doubt you, I just think something isn't right (whether it be a bugged assembly check error on Kauri, or whatever). When you get the Amazing Assembly message, does it always give you some different % thanfrom the usual Great Assembly roll ? Say you use the resources you have been using gives a Great Assembly of 22%, does an Amazing Assembly always give something a bit over 22% ?
This is my problem on Kauri. No matter whether I get an Amazing Assembly or a Great Assembly, the starting % is always 24%. With the foods I get up to +143 assembly, so I get about half or so Amazing Assemblies. Out of the 100+ attempts (started using my good stuff and gave up and used lesser stuff I could afford to lose), I got about half Amazing Assemblies, but never got a starting percentage any different than the usual Great Assembly.
Message Edited by Gribnitz on 06-16-2004 06:14 PM
Straker_Atrella
Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:20 pm
#34
Good question Grib, that is my experiance as well. The starting % is always the same whether isAmazing or not.
Eri, is every amazing you get a different %?
Ackdel
Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:21 pm
#35
I tested this out earlier today, on some creature harvesting modules.
great assembly: started out at 23%. Finished droid: 107.
amazing assembly: started out at 23%. Finished droid: 107.
Malitevv
Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:30 pm
#36
But neither explains why it has never happenned for anyone else, even though they've tried to do exactly what you say you did many, many times.
Erillion wrote:
>>>>
this is too random, irrational, and non-intuitiveto be intentional IMO.
>>>>
One of these two reasons could explain what happened.
Erillion
Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:21 am
#37
An amazingassembly does NOT automatically lead to a higher percentage ... usually its the same as from a great assembly. Only a few come out higher. (Dunno if "amazing" is the exact word for the assembly being better than "great" .. i am not near the game ATM to check).
Malitew .... "many many times" means how many times ? I dont know why it cannot be yet recreated ... I can only assume that the reason is that I handcrafted hundreds of them and got lucky. You have used crafting food ? However, similiar observations have been made by weaponsmiths if I interpret comments from others in this and similiar threads correctly.
Have fun
Delos
Malitevv
Thu Jun 17, 2004 10:28 pm
#38
i know it has happenned on rare instances for a few other crafting professions. but even those other professions are suspecting it was a bug that hit them as well. it simply does not make sense that two different cases where the exact same thing (an amazing assembly) happenned would yield different results regarding the max experimentation.
not once in the 8 months I've been playing this game has anyone ever had an amazing result affect the cap on the experimentation percentages. if it did, somebody would have reported it long ago. But now, in the course of a couple weeks, 3 or 4 people report that the assembly result has caused the experimentation caps to be exceedable in a non-reproducible way.
when non-reproducible results start happenning out of the blue like that there is only one logical conclusion as far as I'm concerned: a bug.
JodoKai
Fri Jun 18, 2004 6:10 pm
#39
Some of the things that have changed in the last few weeks is crafting food has gotten much better. I'm on Naritus and have access to the same materials as Delos and I have not been able to reproduce the results. I do use the food (actually I use better food than he had) but the difference is that I'm not in a research city. All these things combined plus a lot of tries has achieved a Critical Hit if you will.
We know he's not lying about the results as the droids actually exist. The only thing he could possibly be lying about is the resources he used, saying he used Oni when he was actually using something better, but since he's admiting to using the best resoruces that ever spawned on our server, he can't be using anything better than he says he is.
Guess I'll just chalk it up to a Critical Hit and keep rolling my D-20
We know he's not lying about the results as the droids actually exist. The only thing he could possibly be lying about is the resources he used, saying he used Oni when he was actually using something better, but since he's admiting to using the best resoruces that ever spawned on our server, he can't be using anything better than he says he is.
Guess I'll just chalk it up to a Critical Hit and keep rolling my D-20