Droid Engineer Archive

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JavelinCatcher wrote:

I still say the Droid Commander profession doesn't make sense continuity-wise. Something just wouldn't feel right while walking through Theed and seeing 5 people with Droideka and Trade Federation Battle droids in tow (well neither does seeing a Rancor...but that's another subject).

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Actually, it's the same subject. They both spring from the same idea; this IS NOT the Star Wars Universe you know of.

If you look deeper, there really isn't all that much in SWG to make the game feel like it is part of the Star Wars Universe. Yes, it looks alot like Star Wars, but when you look under the surface, what do you see? Dozens of Jedi, hundreds of TKM's, rebels dominating in numbers, imperial presence at a minimum, hundreds of CH's with huge Rancors tumbling through the streets of Coronet, etc. It's obvious to me that this is, at best, a "re-imagining" of the Star Wars Universe during this specific time period.

Constraining all DE fixes, and by extension any planned DH type class, to continuity ideals will only serve to stunt the overall impact droid will make to the game. No other class seems concerned about how they fit into the Star Wars Universe. I don't think DE's should be either, it would be a humongous disservice to the entire class. Yes, Protocol Droids with blasters in hand are kinda weak. But, it adds variance. It adds some flavor, albeit only a minor amount. Will seeing five or six Droidekas parked outside of the Theed starport break my sense of continuity? Yes. Will it break my sense of immersion? No. As far as I'm concerned, the lack of droids in this game is more continuity breaking than if suddenly RogerRoger's were a common sight. Making droids, any and all droids, more common is a fair trade of for continuity, especially when you consider that strict adherence to the Star Wars cannon is not something the devs feel is important.

So, I say, to hell with concerns about continuity. I've yet to see anything in patch notes explaining, "X change to the game world was done for continuity's sake". So I see no reason to limit any droid changes for the sake of it.

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TheRealTK421 wrote:

I suddenly realized....my earlier vehemence against DH/DC as a way to get combat droids was all well and good for MY vision of how they should be added. But I hadn't been thinking of my clients. I had been selfishly wanting things to happen my way and my way, only. And that meant, no DH/DC class.

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• Good, they won't be introducing another broken profession into the game then


• Does this mean I'll get utility droids now?

And I agree with both of those comments. Why? Because the implementation of DC/DH does not fix the DE class. We'll end up in the end with two broken professions.

I've picked up BE and I'm having a blast with it. I won't keep it, however I'm having fun getting to master in it. Their crafting is so much more better than droids. IMO, I suggest you start a char on another server and spend a few hours getting to novice BE and then another few hours playing at one, just to see what it's like. That is a system I'd love to see for DE. You make a chassis, and then the chassis has a certain number of slots in it, which allow you to place many modules in it. (this is not taking account combat droids) Each module would raise the usage level of it, and there would be no cap at all on the droids. That means I can make a binary load lifter with 100 item storage, or a surgical droid with a medical rating of 200. However, each chassis would be limited to: a) the types of modules and b) have a different cap. I know this sounds contradictory, I first say no caps, and then say each droid has a cap. Certain droids should be used for certain functionality. There should be a tangible benefit to using a surgical droid over using a mouse droid. I also mentioned a usage level of a droid. Basically, it's a limited cert *gasp* system that does not make droids overpowered. Say each skill box is usage +1 then a master medic would have 17 points... if a surgical droid is usage 10 to start and each module increases it, it means that a novice medic cannot use a really buffed surgical droid to help grind up. This only touches the surface of how it can be done. For combat droids, that's a whole other story (and hence why each droid could have a combat level and usage level).

AckisConstructivePost++;

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Ashlish wrote:

If you look deeper, there really isn't all that much in SWG to make the game feel like it is part of the Star Wars Universe. Yes, it looks alot like Star Wars, but when you look under the surface, what do you see? Dozens of Jedi, hundreds of TKM's, rebels dominating in numbers, imperial presence at a minimum, hundreds of CH's with huge Rancors tumbling through the streets of Coronet, etc. It's obvious to me that this is, at best, a "re-imagining" of the Star Wars Universe during this specific time period.

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So, I say, to hell with concerns about continuity. I've yet to see anything in patch notes explaining, "X change to the game world was done for continuity's sake". So I see no reason to limit any droid changes for the sake of it.

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Well, im not sure its time to give in. Im not sure how mastering a seperate proffession of equall skillpoint cost is any more customer friendly than Having to master DE /Artisan. Maby forcing the crafting for experience is not totally combat happy. But it would work. I guess the 'DC' branch of DE could use some kind of droid Use exp.

{not just combat. I want to say here that I see droid certs as both a way for combat droids, And other powerfull (cert required) droids. Global survey droids. Vehicle repair units. Harvester Maintenance (get the resource, supply remote control link, redeed, or place) Etc. Etc. Things pure crafters could go for.}

But anyway, my point is. I think The Big thing at this point may be to make it known we Do, Want, Combat Droids. (and like > lev 10, too)

Message Edited by Boeda on 02-18-2004 12:39 PM

What I've been hearing from my clients is a mixed bag. I'm getting about 50% TK421 and 50% Ackis.

Personally, I'm pretty neutral on the Droid Handler profession. It has been clear to me for quite a while that high level combat droids just can't be added to the game easily without disrupting balance. Droid Handler is a perfectly acceptable (to me) way for them to add new droids.

What I do not like about Droid Handler is that adding it means that Droid Engineers are not getting the attention they need. Adding a Droid Handler profession is not at all the same thing as fixing Droid Engineer. Fix Droid Engineer first, which means all of the issues on Gorantoth's list as well as new utility droids to give us upgraded functionality like Chefs just received. After that is done, I don't really care if they add a Droid Handler. It'll be more customers for me.

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Ackis wrote:

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TheRealTK421 wrote:

I suddenly realized....my earlier vehemence against DH/DC as a way to get combat droids was all well and good for MY vision of how they should be added. But I hadn't been thinking of my clients. I had been selfishly wanting things to happen my way and my way, only. And that meant, no DH/DC class.

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I find I've been hearing quite the opposite.


Well...I guess it takes all kinds. Some players think this is a good thing...and others, not so much.


In the interest of keeping my posts positive (I'm trying to, I really am) I've found that my customers have been against the DH/DC profession. I've taken a step back and not given my opinion to them, instead just relaying the posts from the forums on what's going to be happening.

The biggest comments I get are:

• Good, they won't be introducing another broken profession into the game then
  
  
  And, ironically, at the same time.....they won't be introducing the higher-powered combat droids that SO many droid clients said they wanted. So...what do we do here?
  
  Remember when we DEs used to yell and scream that we needed more/better combat droid options because our clients were begging for them so much? Well...they did their best to accomodate that within the confines of what was possible with the code.
  
  The fact that we shot down the way they chose to add higher-level combat droids may say more about us than it does about them.
  
  


• Does this mean I'll get utility droids now?
  
  
  Maybe. Publish 8.
  

And I agree with both of those comments. Why? Because the implementation of DC/DH does not fix the DE class. We'll end up in the end with two broken professions.


Yes...this is something of a concern. I don't think it has to be this way...but I can't really comment since I don't have all the facts from the Devs' side. Once we know more details, perhaps we'll be in a better place to see how this could all play out in our favor. Right now, we just don't know enough to really make that call...as best as I can see.

I've picked up BE and I'm having a blast with it. I won't keep it, however I'm having fun getting to master in it. Their crafting is so much more better than droids.


If that's the case, maybe you could suggest how the good stuff from BE could be lifted over to the DE side of things. I'm not a BE, so I can't say what is or is not better about it...but you could speak constructively from experience on how to make DEs better from what you've seen in BE.

It really, really would help I think.


IMO, I suggest you start a char on another server and spend a few hours getting to novice BE and then another few hours playing at one, just to see what it's like. That is a system I'd love to see for DE. You make a chassis, and then the chassis has a certain number of slots in it, which allow you to place many modules in it. (this is not taking account combat droids) Each module would raise the usage level of it, and there would be no cap at all on the droids. That means I can make a binary load lifter with 100 item storage, or a surgical droid with a medical rating of 200.


Wow...that would be cool. And...that's the kind of thing that I've always hoped we'd see in the DE class. I'd want to be able to have the possiblity of making that unique, nearly impossible to recreate 100 item BLL droid.

I've said before that we DEs don't enjoy the aspect of playing on the 'quality' field. Every droid made by any Master DE has potentially the exact same stats as the same droid made by any other Master DE.

That's not fun....it's...disheartening. If we can get a BE-like situation like you describe above, I'd be ecstatic.


However, each chassis would be limited to: a) the types of modules and b) have a different cap. I know this sounds contradictory, I first say no caps, and then say each droid has a cap. Certain droids should be used for certain functionality.


Yes...I still believe that the chassis should (at least up to a point) relate to that droid's inherent functionality.

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/bow

Respectfully,

Message Edited by TheRealTK421 on 02-18-2004 11:57 AM

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Jenden wrote:

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meeuki wrote:

no other combat class has access to all damage types. you are proposing a profession that has access to everything, and can be coupled with 1 or possibly 2 combat professions?

part of the bounty hunter appeal is their access to a wide variety of damage types. commando as well. will the DC/DH you envision require a comparable # of skill points?

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I'm thinking that droids would have a much lower damage output than players, so yes, they may have a wide variety of types, but then again they'd also do a lot less damage. Also I'd say droids shouldn't be quite as good of tanks as creatures, meaning they need to make up for it in another area (such as damage types).

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Jenden thanks for clarifying for me lol.
I was not in anyway suggesting that a CLWhatever Combat droid should have the Flamethrower capability whatsoever of a Commando. But I am trying to provide a template that is ideally different from that of CH and that also maybe show how combat droids could be distinctly different. It is merely an idea and quite possibly something to build on.

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Actually, that was the whole push for the Imperial Crackdown and why we were pushed back from the timetable. To give the Empire more presence. I've noticed a huge difference on Gorath with the majority of players moving towards becomming Imperial or neutral. Jedi are still scarce. I've only run into a couple and they were all hiding it. (They were people I've met through the last couple months with "new" characters). So I say YES! we are moving more towards continuity (not there yet, but closer).

I want to also make it clear that CH does have a purpose in the galaxy and stays with continuity a plenty.

I also still stand by my opinion that Droid controlling could easily fit in a single tree of Squad Leader.

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Did they implement the Imperial Crackdown for continuity's sake or for more involvement in PvP? I suppose if you want to equate the two, then the answer is both.

I run around with sliced weaponry, and some sliced armor. I run all over the galaxy, and I play way too much for my own good, on two servers. I've yet to even see an imperial scanning team. I see more overt imps in town, but nary a skirmish evolves from that presence. The Imperial Crackdown is a misnomer; crackdown implies an overwhelming presence.

I disagree completely about the jedi. They removed Jedi permadeath. That made being a Jedi EASIER, not harder. In this timeframe, the jedi are all but extinct. So, from a continuity PoV, being a jedi should be HARDER, not easier.

Both points harken back to what TK said earlier; you have to balance continuity with an enjoyable experience. Removing permadeath made being a jedi more fun, it did not repair a continuity disconnect. A real Imperial Crackdown would make the game unplayable for both sides of the GCW.

Now, when balancing continuity and fun when it comes to droids, are you going to go with a strict interpretation of the Star Wars Cannon, which describes (I guess, since I've never read many of the books) that droid armies were outlawed at some point? That would limit droids to just utility types, along with a couple weak combat variants (i.e. where we are now). Or are you going to go with the enjoyment side, which states that combat is a MAJOR part of the SWG experience, and allow for more advanced combat droids, along with utility droids?

I am a selfish **edit**. I want both. I'm more than willing to sacrifice continuity for the sake of a fully formed and fleshed out profession that can make utility droids that are virtually essential to existing in the SWG universe, along with combat droids that can match any random CH pet. Believe me, I want utility first, since it is the avenue that holds the most promise and can be pushed to the coolest limit. However, strict adherence to the EU will only restrict us from the combat avenue, and whether we want to admit it or not, combat is a major part of this game. Combat is the reason jedi are so fun to play, even though they violate every common sense idea you have about Star Wars.

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Kollos wrote:

What I've been hearing from my clients is a mixed bag. I'm getting about 50% TK421 and 50% Ackis.

Personally, I'm pretty neutral on the Droid Handler profession. It has been clear to me for quite a while that high level combat droids just can't be added to the game easily without disrupting balance. Droid Handler is a perfectly acceptable (to me) way for them to add new droids.

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Message Edited by Lonkley on 02-18-2004 12:04 PM

You know TK, I honestly belive that after publishes 7 and 8 if the Devs come back here and ask everyone what they think about a DC/DH profession most will say yes.

Its all about timing. With all the issues that DE's are facing and lack of general functionality in the droids we have i think everyone just kind of went off the deepend when they thought of adding another profession without first fixing us. Or, at least thats how i felt.

Iagree with you that looking at it now in retrospect the DC/DH profession isnt such a horrible idea. I do still think that the timing and perhaps wording of it was was poorly stated and planned.

Just a thought to any Devs who happen to stop by: After the combat revamp and Publishes 7 and 8 of course, try coming back to the DC/DH profession. I truely belive you will find a much better reception to the idea.

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Sraecru wrote:

You know TK, I honestly belive that after publishes 7 and 8 if the Devs come back here and ask everyone what they think about a DC/DH profession most will say yes.

Its all about timing. With all the issues that DE's are facing and lack of general functionality in the droids we have i think everyone just kind of went off the deepend when they thought of adding another profession without first fixing us. Or, at least thats how i felt.

Iagree with you that looking at it now in retrospect the DC/DH profession isnt such a horrible idea. I do still think that the timing and perhaps wording of it was was poorly stated and planned.

Just a thought to any Devs who happen to stop by: After the combat revamp and Publishes 7 and 8 of course, try coming back to the DC/DH profession. I truely belive you will find a much better reception to the idea.

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yeah, this sums up the way i feel too. i don't care if there is a DH in the game. it is all about timing... fix broken things first, enhance current functionalities, then add cool new professions. i'm really glad this is the direction they are taking.

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Sraecru wrote:

You know TK, I honestly belive that after publishes 7 and 8 if the Devs come back here and ask everyone what they think about a DC/DH profession most will say yes.

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I suspect you might be right, however....


It's all in how it's done. They already know they wouldn't want it to just be a copy/paste job. No one is really saying that they want it.


I think the idea that the profession couldn't be cool, useful or whatever is bunk. It's always in how it's done and what makes it NOT just like a metallic CH. That's going to be a hard challenge. I hope they let us help to solve the issues before they happen....if/when they decide to release a DC class.

The issue is not its existence...but how that existence is implemented.



/bow

Respectfully,