Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Who Wants To Play A Droid Engineer Who Can't Use All His/Her Droids?
Ideally I'd say no special certs for DE's (including being certed at all if other crafting non-combat professions aren't certed). I don't think there is any reason combat needs to be tied to the profession, if you want to fight, you can still pick up a combat profession. If we got any perks they should be in the crafting/utility realm.
Now, in the interest of creating a broader scope to the profession to take into account various interests and prefferences, I'd go as far as to accept the wholeDE's being certed for combat droids thing but only at the same levels as the people its intended to be used by (those whos focus is combat). The whole 2 droid out at a time idea is fine if the second droid is a non-combat droid.
The one thing I absolutely do not want to see is a DE only combat droid. If there is a DE only droid, it should reflect our engineering abilities and not give us increased combat abilities. This probably puts me in the crafter camp. I also don't think that a DE should be able to have any more combat droids out than anyone else.
I can fully see the reasoning behind not allowing DEs to use some of their droids in combat without them having taken some combat class. And, combat is a skill. My other character has spent many, many hours and skill points getting combat skills. To mention that Droids are autonomous entities and should be controllable by anyone is like saying that a Weaponsmith who has crafter a T-21 should be able to use it without a problem. Said weaponsmith probably knows that weapon's intricacies better than any Master Rifleman. He knows how to aim it and shoot it and maintain it. However, he is not experienced in how to do these things under the pressure of battle or in the real world where environmental factors like wind and temperature may affect things. If he were to start learning those things in a non acedemic way, he would be learning to become a rifleman.
The same can be said of Droids to a point. An experienced combatant knows what enemy to strike first and when. They also know how to judge the battlefield better than someone who has not been on one before. But after that, the arguments break done some (at least as far as I can think of right now). So, A DE should probably have reduced offensive abilities with their Droid.
With that, I think the following would be a good setup:
* Novice or Tier 1 DEs have the opportunity to create a special DE only droid that is incapable of holding any combat modules (Armor is OK). This droid gives the owning DE bonuses to repair other droids. It can also hold a Droid crafting station. The droid's bonuses rise with the level of the DE using it. Probably based on Droid Experimentation Points. +5 bonus at Tier 1 and +55 at Master. This droid is always callable by the DE that created it regardless of any other Droids that may have already been called.
* Any Droid that a DE has out should heal damage faster than if it were being used by a non-DE. This reflects the DE's intimate knowledge of Droids and their makeup. This bonus should be in the Droid Construction line and rise similar to the Droid Assembly numbers. If the Droid was actually crafted by the DE, they would receive an additional bonus. Maybe +15.
* Depending on how they handle the usage of higher end combat droids, I would think that DEs can call their own creations (not made by another DE). They may do so later or with less offensive effectiveness though. So, if the cert system says a combatant can call a medium combat droid at novice and a heavy at mid-level, a DE would call a mid-level combat droid at mid level somewhere and a heavy at master. This would reflect the DE's reluctance to call his 'baby' until he has the increased healing abilities mentioned above. Another possiblity would be that the DE could call out any level of combat droid at any time but with reduced damage dealing ability. This would reflect the DE's inexperience with how to do things on a battlefield. But, whatever the scenario, I think DEs should have more combat abilities with their Droids than other Elites from the Artisan profession. I just don't think they should be as effective as true combatants. But, you get a very interesting mix when you combine the Droid combat effectiveness of a Combatant with the Healing abilities a DE could provide.
* DEs should have a quest droid similar to the RIS armor of an armorsmith. This quest droid would be the most powerful of the combat droids. Perhaps the fabled Droideka. Such a droid would be usable by anyone. What keeps them out of the hands of low level folks is the expense due to the rarity of many of the components.
* DEs should be allowed more Droids in their datapad than non-DEs.
* There should be a droid that can either fit into/onto a vehicle or can keep up with a traveling vehicle. What's the point of traveling fast if I can't have my droid bodyguard with me when I get there? (I currently use my combatant for harvester runs except for moving the harvesters because it's just plain too dangerous otherwise).
I know some people are going to have problems with some of the things I've said, but this is how I see it right now.
Don't worry Wood, I was able to get some info out ofthis threadand that is what really counts.
TheWoody wrote:
I think this indecisiveness, combined with ellewen's complete negativity, is going to **edit** this profession. This thread has already been destroyed, which is a pity as I really neededto know the general consensus of the population. All Sodan did was ask a simple question. Yes or No would have sufficed.
Drashk wrote:
Don't worry Wood, I was able to get some info out ofthis threadand that is what really counts.
/agree
If you think its worth a poll, Drashk, then great. I am satisfied that most people do not object to DEs being able to use all their non-skill based droids.
I think that I if I post one more poll this week, someone is liable to place my head on a pole. 
Seriously though.Between this thread and about 3 others, the question has been answered quite throughly.
While I think we tend to agree on many things, I do not agree with referring to combat ability as "non-skill based." All of the combat professions (except brawler) have skills based on "combat experience". It is a skill and I would suspect it is the logical place to put droid certifications. I'm not really trying to be nit-picky because I understand what you mean and agree to a point, but I would suggest finding another way of saying it.
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
If you think its worth a poll, Drashk, then great. I am satisfied that most people do not object to DEs being able to use all their non-skill based droids.
Personally, i think many of you have got it all wrong (just my ideas).
1) Anyone who asks if a mechanic knows how to drive a formula 1 car is making a bad analogy. De is like the guy who builds his own computer. Chances are, he has done research (Thus, with more research and experience, he can build systems with better components [i.e. video cards, or, in SWG: better modules], different operating systems [Windows is easier to install than BeOS, and in SWG: personality chips], etc.), and knows the workings of his computer inside and out. Afterall, what are droids but walking computers? Some have more complex software, or AI chips. He knows how to tweak and bend the droid to his (or her) will. Unlike the mechanic working with many others, or the person working on an assembly line, he has assembled and programed his droid from the ground up, and thus would know how to use it. Why does a DE not use seeker droids and probe droids? Why would he need to? He doesn't need to find "marks" to kill. Can a DE use a medical droid? YES! He can! But he has no use of the medical module, and therefore does not use it.
2) Using the same logic as above, the DE, once he hits master level (signifing the ultimate knowledge of his droid and its workings, as well as its capabilities), can command any of his droids. Why shouldn't he command half-fire droids or homing spider droids with the effectiveness? If anything, he should command them BETTER because he knows their capabilities and how far they can be pushed? Does this mean they should recieve bonuses? No, because a droid is a droid is a droid. But should he suffer a disadvantage from using this droid? I fail to see any logic in that statement, because of what i have just said? Using the same token, shouldn't the droid know how to work with people who don't? Yes! Thats why it has AI! As far as a cert system, why not do the following?
I) Anyone who has not recieved a novice Skill level can use all droids currently avaiable. This helps a complete novice get started in a dangerous world.
II) Anyone who is a novice in an elite profession can use a medium droid, or a Battle Droid or Ultra Battle Droid. This helps protect them, as well as make leveling up easier.
III) Anyone who is a master in any elite profession can call one heavy droid (dwarf spider droid or droideka). This helps crafters defend their harvesters, and helps master combatants against higher level kills (such as fambaa).
IV) A novice DE is subject to the same thing as a novice elite (he has not learned all there is to learn).
V) A master DE would call 2 droids of any type (again, he is the master, he bends droids to his will).
Could someone explain to me how i am wrong with any of my statements?
Lets see... where to begin? First, we are obviously crafters. But why is that some sort of generalized thing where we have no other option but to build things? By whose definition are we delimiting crafting to? In my opinion “crafting vs. whatever else”, is not a debatable issue in the discussion. Smugglers are crafters, medics are crafters, tailors are crafters, but they all have something unique to contribute along with a skill set.
The benefit of the "pure crafter" class is that they can provide a service or benefit to all players. That seems to be the idea, anyway. The three that fail miserably are the Droid Engineer, Weaponsmith and the Bio-Engineer. Does that mean we should compare ourselves to Weaponsmith or Bio-Engineer? Meh.
Skill dependant droids are the bane of this profession and to droids in general. And I have heard every argument for them time and again. Usually, the only thing people say is “balance” or “put someone out of a job”. Well, you don’t want to “balance” droids with players. To balance is to cancel a force with an equal and opposite force. And if a surgical droid with 45 HAM (and requires stimpacks or woundpacks made by medics to operate) puts you out of a job, you should consider another profession.
So there is my widely unpopular opinion. I am not sure what the litmus test for fun is in an MMORGP, but I would prefer to use the movies as precedent before using massively multiplayer standards. And in the movies, Droids were sentient. They were not only useful, but also crucial to the stories. That applies to many other Lucas games, as well, so why doesn’t it apply to the one game that is supposed to immerse more than any other? At least we could have a more invisible and organic set of limitations on droid use. Droids that scale up with use, or “level up”, for instance.
Something that many people forget to point out is that not all Combat Professions are strictly combat professions.Ranger, Scout, Combat Medic, and Smugglerall have crafting abilities, yet none of them have Artisan prerequisties. Medic, Doctor, and Musican branch out into crafting as well, yet none of them have Artisan as a prereq either.
Using the argument that Droid Engineers are crafters and should always be crafters is like saying that Droids are borked and should always be borked. If you wish to argue the subject, please find another point of contention.
Using the argument that Droid Engineers should be able to us every thing that they create, without some sort of balancing measure such as a cert system for all professions, just because it makes sense is not a way toargue the subject either.
The heart of the matter is balance. Quite arguing over what each group wants, like a couple that is breaking up after many years of living together. Instead, argue about what would be the most balanced type of cert system, so that everyone can use the droids we build.
Put your frustrations to good use, instead of taking them out on each other like a couple of siblings sitting in the back seat of a the family car crossing the desert without any air conditioning.
(I include myself in this on also.)
Drashk wrote:
Put your frustrations to good use...
I took your advice Drashk.... I loaded up an old game of Hearts of Iron.
Seriously though.... thinking out of the box on this issue is most welcome. People need to start proposing alternatives and alternatives to those alternatives. The more narrow-minded we are in how we approach a problem only gives SOE carte blanche to be just as narrow-minded.
Drashk wrote:
The heart of the matter is balance. Quite arguing over what each group wants, like a couple that is breaking up after many years of living together. Instead, argue about what would be the most balanced type of cert system, so that everyone can use the droids we build.
/agree
I said as much after my poll on combat droids some time ago -- that we should focus on some fair cert system. I like Daker's a lot. Maybe that's a good starting point.
to all those i want to craft and nothing else players,
i ask udo u use vehicles cause ur a driver wehn doing so and not a de
do u use mounts and pets cause ur a creature handler and not a de
do u use the market cause ur a trader and not a de
do u use travels cause ur a traveler and not a de
do u use harvestors cause ur a miner and not a de
are u in a guild, do u have friend in swg, maybe u wanna play with them and not sit back in ur house crafting
so u wanna just build a droid and nothing more, than do so and leave the other players alone.
Nelus wrote:
to all those i want to craft and nothing else players,
i ask udo u use vehicles cause ur a driver wehn doing so and not a de
do u use mounts and pets cause ur a creature handler and not a de
do u use the market cause ur a trader and not a de
do u use travels cause ur a traveler and not a de
do u use harvestors cause ur a miner and not a de
are u in a guild, do u have friend in swg, maybe u wanna play with them and not sit back in ur house crafting
so u wanna just build a droid and nothing more, than do so and leave the other players alone.
I think I speak for most of us when I say....huh?