Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Thoughts on the new vendor changes?
MrTrag
Fri Feb 11, 2005 7:04 pm
#27
I put my name in the hat with the naysayers on this one. The reasons this is bad have been clearly stated so no need to repeat. The worst part of it to me is that it will destroy almost overnight what players have worked months to acheive. Some people have tried to compare this change to the solo group change (or fix). They are not even remotely similar.
Trag
Atan
Fri Feb 11, 2005 7:07 pm
#28
Hmm... if you look at it the bargain hunting aspect is still there, just not going up personal to the Store but instead checking "online" if there is a bargain. And if the original resource source wants his ressources to be a bargain they would not register it "online" anyway.
And i personaly am sick of searching for a ressource Vendor per planetary Map, because there are simply many Vendor + many buyers, ergo many Stores visited and maybetwo times in 6 Month i found something worthwile. I may be lazy but if i would really want it i would rather pay extra than spend 10 Hours looking and dont finding it.
[Edit:]
Quoting my post from the Original Thread to get a bit more back to the topic
[...]
With this option it will bea mayor pain to find anything! Now there are 25 Items per user and the bazaar is spammed into oblivion. Now imagine that with all of the Merchant Vendors with up to 4000 Items per person!
In my Opinion there should be much more filter option for the display, like only display PC Vendor, only show Items from this spez. Vendor/Location, etc.
And of course a Search funtion!
About the delivery i am not sure... it IS a pretty handy feature... but to much of a free checker to have this option for everyone. I would say master Merchant + additional costs for the delivery (Maybe lessened byusing your personal delivery Droid )
[...]
[/Edit]
Message Edited by Atan on 02-12-200503:11 AM
Message Edited by Atan on 02-12-2005 03:11 AM
Atan
Fri Feb 11, 2005 7:15 pm
#29
Tiggs wrote:
Maisland wrote:
Two things:
- I agree with the concerns of others that items should not be automatically delivered and that the buyer should have to travel to the vendor for pick-up
- When is this going Live?
- We are going to change the auto-retrieve items when items are purchased from a remote vendor/bazaar. Buyers will have to travel to the vendor/bazaar to pick the item up.
- It will go to Test Center in the next few days.
At least our Shops and Malls are Safer now ^^
Jenden
Fri Feb 11, 2005 7:20 pm
#30
Atan wrote:
Tiggs wrote:
Maisland wrote:Two things:
- I agree with the concerns of others that items should not be automatically delivered and that the buyer should have to travel to the vendor for pick-up
- When is this going Live?
- We are going to change the auto-retrieve items when items are purchased from a remote vendor/bazaar. Buyers will have to travel to the vendor/bazaar to pick the item up.
- It will go to Test Center in the next few days.
At least our Shops and Malls are Safer now ^^
Not really by much. People will still just run into and out of a shop/mall to grab whatever they've already bought. The quality of the venue plays no role since they've already bought the item, and they don't need to know where it is or who's it is since if they need something else they can just look through the list again.
Straker_Atrella
Fri Feb 11, 2005 7:25 pm
#31
LonelyGhost wrote:
If they do this, I want all my Merchant skill points back. The profession should be like Politician now. While I am excited to see them paying attention to Merchant, I wish they had come to us before they put any amout of time into this.
I think it is safe to say that all Merchant would MUCH rather the Dev team put all this great, new energy they have demonstrated recently into...
...IMPROVING THE SKILL SET AND ABILITIES OF THE CURRENT MERCHANT PROFESSION !!
This change will kill 90% of the businesses in the game, driving the cost of good s down to a level where only the Guild-run conglomerates and those who have 8 or more accounts and 400+ piece lot swapped harvester farms can stay in business.
The only thing I would like to see drop in price is all the stupid new loot the Devs are shoveling in the game to occupy us.
What I find ironic LG is that with this, change crafted item prices will drop and loot prices will RISE.
If people are spending less money on crafted stuff, they will have more money to spend in general. So if people are after loot items, they will be willing to pay more. This will drive the loot prices up, especially the good ones. 2 Millioniares fighting over a skill tape will pay more then 2 new people.
Who loots the loot? Combatents. The last thing we need to do is tip the scales economically more that way.
Atan
Fri Feb 11, 2005 7:29 pm
#32
Jenden wrote:
Not really by much. People will still just run into and out of a shop/mall to grab whatever they've already bought. The quality of the venue plays no role since they've already bought the item, and they don't need to know where it is or who's it is since if they need something else they can just look through the list again.
Well, if people are that ignorant they would do it now too. But its in my Opinion more the layout of the complete Store than the Items you have somewhere in your Vendor that make a good first impression.
Jenden
Fri Feb 11, 2005 7:36 pm
#33
Atan wrote:
Jenden wrote:
Not really by much. People will still just run into and out of a shop/mall to grab whatever they've already bought. The quality of the venue plays no role since they've already bought the item, and they don't need to know where it is or who's it is since if they need something else they can just look through the list again.Well, if people are that ignorant they would do it now too. But its in my Opinion more the layout of the complete Store than the Items you have somewhere in your Vendor that make a good first impression.
See, but people won't see the layout of the store until after they've bought the item, thats the problem.
Atan
Fri Feb 11, 2005 7:52 pm
#34
Jenden wrote:
See, but people won't see the layout of the store until after they've bought the item, thats the problem.
*note to myself*
Dont get into arguments at 3 AM! You will contradict yourself and loose 
Back to Topic:
So, the main problem is that with the new System is that the experianced Crafters/Business(wo)men are forced into a direct comparison with the newbie/ignorantCrafter where the only way to distinguish the 2 is by price and quality of the product. (while in some areas no "quality" is possible, as there is no experimentation etc. )
Correct me if i am wrong.
jefmes
Fri Feb 11, 2005 7:55 pm
#35
I was pushing hard in the main thread to get rid of the auto-purchase, and it looks like it's gone! 
Good for us, for sure.
Good for us, for sure.
Jenden
Fri Feb 11, 2005 7:57 pm
#36
jefmes wrote:I was pushing hard in the main thread to get rid of the auto-purchase, and it looks like it's gone!
not quite. Items are still purchased remotely, you just have to go to the store to pick them up. Really not better, might bump up impulse sales a tiny bit but still doesn't solve the fundamental problem that it kills all the work people have put into making their shops look good.
AudioOrgana
Fri Feb 11, 2005 8:02 pm
#37
This was a bad idea when it was supposed to happen in beta, which is why it was scrapped. It's still a bad idea in this raw form.
I didn't bother registering my thoughts in the main thread - though I find it highly amusing and think the replies from the community manager speak for themselves when it comes to them changing their minds about instant delivery. If you read her recent replies, they have recinded this part of the change. Already. It was just another "well, let's soften this blow by making it sound REALLY bad, then take back one of the worst ideas and look like heroes" - don't tell me such a high level decision was made on the spur of the moment the same day it was announced; if it was, then they didn't have much thought into the idea in the first place.
It's clear between this and the TEF changes they wish to make SWG a very, very different game than many of us had believed it was working towards. This type of global commodification absolutely decimates the entire point of being a merchant besides sheer volume via larger item counts. This change is all about pleasure for the masses giving them a temporary euphoria and ignoring the integrity of the more complex game systems that don't have a simple UI to tune.
The economic mini-game of SWG was simply the most fascinating thing about the experience. While I have said time and time again we need some form of global advertising, this "anywhere/anytime" meshing of vendor and bazaar listings will simply marginalize the markets, and many of them will fall. This sounds absoultely wonderful to the combat types and the "oh my the sky is falling!" economy whiners - but means the end to every single distinctive and unique thing about the SWG business game, every nuance and interesting factor gone in favor of one single defining feature : price.
I feel very bad for anyone that gets into a crafting profession from this point on. They are doomed. My prices will not drop, I have enough 1000OQ fiberplast and high cond/quality metals to make the droids where it quality "matters" that they can never match for many years to come. I simply will stop carrying droids where quality doesn't matter, and they can fight out the lowest "CPU" price between each other. They will never get a "leg up".
Other crafting professions are going to be simmilar - but this will absolutely kill some of them. Bye-bye Tailors and architects - it was bad before, but now I simply can't imagine those professions making anything at all.
So yes, I'm sure this will please many players, and that is the point - but they just effectively took out the entire merchant/businessperson mini-game in the process. The whiners will stop whining and put a temporary simple on their face so the goal will be met; let's see how long it lasts when the veteran crafters are forced into making the few items we can still make money on, and the newer crafters get sick of making maxxed out R3 non-experimental utility droids for 5K.
What we needed was a more elegant soloution. One I have proposed before was simply revamping the bazaar to have an "advertisement" tab that novice merchants (level negotiable) where we could legitimately have a little write-up about our store and even include some sample prices if we wished. I say legitimately because people were already doing this by exploiting the antiquated auction system - all it would have taken would be the change of the word "auction" to "advertising" and the addition of a tab to the UI.
It's a shame, because so many wonderful things have happened to SWG lately that the things that made SWG unique are being flushed out the toilet. This new team seems to have a "can-do" philosophy, which is so refreshing - but right now it feels like they are overcompensating by responding to frequent complaints with one sweeping change without thought as to the end result. My fear is that it's not even that innocent - that they know full well what it's going to do, and actually think it's a good thing.
/sigh
This is why I didn't post in the other thread...as you can see, it's on it's way to TC, and they've made their decision (and I believe the auto-delivery decision was made long before today). This is a change that needs a lot of concern and dicussion, and we aren't being given the opportunity to do so in a meaningful way. No "In Concept" here. There is definately a middle-ground to this - I just don't think we're going to have the chance to find it before it goes live and there is really no way to go back.
SWG has been so bitter-sweet lately, it's hard to describe; at the same time they are making some of the annoying and less-fun things going away, they are also doing away with the things that made SWG unique. In the case of vendor changes, location, service, reputation, and pride in your shop will be rendered meaningless - it's all about who sells for the cheapest price. Some people see that as a wonderful thing - I see it as the removal of an entire aspect of the game and something that will lead to the decline of crafters as a whole.
AO
I didn't bother registering my thoughts in the main thread - though I find it highly amusing and think the replies from the community manager speak for themselves when it comes to them changing their minds about instant delivery. If you read her recent replies, they have recinded this part of the change. Already. It was just another "well, let's soften this blow by making it sound REALLY bad, then take back one of the worst ideas and look like heroes" - don't tell me such a high level decision was made on the spur of the moment the same day it was announced; if it was, then they didn't have much thought into the idea in the first place.
It's clear between this and the TEF changes they wish to make SWG a very, very different game than many of us had believed it was working towards. This type of global commodification absolutely decimates the entire point of being a merchant besides sheer volume via larger item counts. This change is all about pleasure for the masses giving them a temporary euphoria and ignoring the integrity of the more complex game systems that don't have a simple UI to tune.
The economic mini-game of SWG was simply the most fascinating thing about the experience. While I have said time and time again we need some form of global advertising, this "anywhere/anytime" meshing of vendor and bazaar listings will simply marginalize the markets, and many of them will fall. This sounds absoultely wonderful to the combat types and the "oh my the sky is falling!" economy whiners - but means the end to every single distinctive and unique thing about the SWG business game, every nuance and interesting factor gone in favor of one single defining feature : price.
I feel very bad for anyone that gets into a crafting profession from this point on. They are doomed. My prices will not drop, I have enough 1000OQ fiberplast and high cond/quality metals to make the droids where it quality "matters" that they can never match for many years to come. I simply will stop carrying droids where quality doesn't matter, and they can fight out the lowest "CPU" price between each other. They will never get a "leg up".
Other crafting professions are going to be simmilar - but this will absolutely kill some of them. Bye-bye Tailors and architects - it was bad before, but now I simply can't imagine those professions making anything at all.
So yes, I'm sure this will please many players, and that is the point - but they just effectively took out the entire merchant/businessperson mini-game in the process. The whiners will stop whining and put a temporary simple on their face so the goal will be met; let's see how long it lasts when the veteran crafters are forced into making the few items we can still make money on, and the newer crafters get sick of making maxxed out R3 non-experimental utility droids for 5K.
What we needed was a more elegant soloution. One I have proposed before was simply revamping the bazaar to have an "advertisement" tab that novice merchants (level negotiable) where we could legitimately have a little write-up about our store and even include some sample prices if we wished. I say legitimately because people were already doing this by exploiting the antiquated auction system - all it would have taken would be the change of the word "auction" to "advertising" and the addition of a tab to the UI.
It's a shame, because so many wonderful things have happened to SWG lately that the things that made SWG unique are being flushed out the toilet. This new team seems to have a "can-do" philosophy, which is so refreshing - but right now it feels like they are overcompensating by responding to frequent complaints with one sweeping change without thought as to the end result. My fear is that it's not even that innocent - that they know full well what it's going to do, and actually think it's a good thing.
/sigh
This is why I didn't post in the other thread...as you can see, it's on it's way to TC, and they've made their decision (and I believe the auto-delivery decision was made long before today). This is a change that needs a lot of concern and dicussion, and we aren't being given the opportunity to do so in a meaningful way. No "In Concept" here. There is definately a middle-ground to this - I just don't think we're going to have the chance to find it before it goes live and there is really no way to go back.
SWG has been so bitter-sweet lately, it's hard to describe; at the same time they are making some of the annoying and less-fun things going away, they are also doing away with the things that made SWG unique. In the case of vendor changes, location, service, reputation, and pride in your shop will be rendered meaningless - it's all about who sells for the cheapest price. Some people see that as a wonderful thing - I see it as the removal of an entire aspect of the game and something that will lead to the decline of crafters as a whole.
AO
Gron_DM
Fri Feb 11, 2005 9:38 pm
#38
what drashk said first time (what i said but nice and eloborate 
)
)EDIT:
Overall this will make the game more fun. People in general consider this to be a postive change, so as the sellers we may have varying problems with this affecting out business but if our customers can buy faster means more ppl sell faster as well. If this goes thru there will be a period of transition and itll take some time for the new system to be settled in but im willing to wait that out as i for one will enjoy being able to peruse products easier, and feel better knowing my customers can do the same.
Message Edited by Gron_DM on 02-11-2005 11:56 PM
Straker_Atrella
Fri Feb 11, 2005 10:07 pm
#39
Gron_DM wrote:
what drashk said first time (what i said but nice and eloborate
EDIT:
Overall this will make the game more fun. People in general consider this to be a postive change, so as the sellers we may have varying problems with this affecting out business but if our customers can buy faster means more ppl sell faster as well. If this goes thru there will be a period of transition and itll take some time for the new system to be settled in but im willing to wait that out as i for one will enjoy being able to peruse products easier, and feel better knowing my customers can do the same.
Message Edited by Gron_DM on 02-11-2005 11:56 PM
Sure it's more fun for non-crafters, but arn't crafters supposed to have fun as well?
I thought the goal was to make things better for people not worse.
AO, I agree, with what you said. That's what makes me mad, once coded, this was going to happen. That's why they should have talked to people before even working on something like this.