Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Sodan's Hybrid DE Proposal
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
Tarne_Monter wrote:
I don't think that this proposal is at all crazy.
First of all, resources, time and money don't mean much as far as the dev's are concerned. And I agree with that stance. Given enough time all of them vanish away. It doesn't matter how *hard* the xp is to get, the valulable commodity in SWG is skillpoints. It also doesn't matter how *easy* the xp is to get either, in the case of the Novice Marksman and Artisan no xp required argument.The skillcap creates skill scarsity. You have to work with the points you are given.
That said, this proposal includes substantial time sinks so that a new player will ahve to grind up to 0004 Marksman and 0040 DE. Combat exp required for 0004 Marksman is 30.5k. That is MORE exp than is required to get Marksman Pistols 4 which requires 90k in Pistol Exp. It would take 305,000k in Pistol exp to get 30k in Combat Exp. That's TWICE the amount of work to get Marksman Pistols 3, but the same amount of skill points. You see how this is a conservative rather than unbalanced plan?
[If my math is off pls correct me -- I am horrible at math]
I was just trying to say that while for new players without friends or at least high roller friends, the difficulty factor of earning said xp does take a long time, there is a certain point where the difficulty involved drops off fairly quickly. Most power gamers have this down to an art, hence why they are power gamers.
I was also trying to point out that what I have seen coming from the dev's points out that skillpoint usage is more important than xp and money required to get said skills. See the checkers debate for reference.
I honestly think that it's a great proposal. The crafters can craft without doing combat (which was why I was opposed to previous hybrid ideas), the combat DE's can do some combat and get better combat droids. The people who want to use bigger combat droids spend the skill points and get them. And the dev's are happy because players aren't getting free checkers. They spend the points, they get the increased combat ability.
Daker-Naritus wrote:
OK stop!!!! EVERYONE JUST STOP!!!! Please take a deep breath, and actually read and think about what I am saying instead of flaming (although I appreciate it Icarus, that respectully includes you).
,,,
I see your numbers and I understand your position. You want to argue that a single crafting tree is not equivalent to a scouting tree, and that's fine. State that. However, in your statement 'Buying an extra novice profession (about 100cr) and spending 15 minutes with a crafting tool does not entitle you to extra combat ability no matter how you slice it' you are implying, whether intentionally or not, that all a combat character has to do is get Engineering-4 to get the droids. (Spend 15 minutes, get extra combat ability).
This is in fact not true. After Engineering IV you do not have extra combat capabilities. You still need to earn enough general crafting XP to purchase Novice DE, then enough droid crafting experience to purchase Droid Experimentation-1. Only at that point do you gain extra combat capabilities and they are relatively minor (+5 levels or something like that).
However, now that I understand where you are coming from I will apologize. I should have been less aggressive when I said you were distorting. You're numbers were wrong but I don't think they were intentionally wrong. I think you just didn't think them all the way through. This is why I am trying to encourage other people to state exactly why they think a statement is wrong. It gives you a chance to defend it and then it gives them a chance to illustrate any errors in your defense.
This is dialogue. This is how to work out concerns and conflicts. Just saying someone is wrong or distorting and telling others to ignoring them, while it might feel good, doesn't progress the solution.
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
Another propblem I have with your agruments generally is that it diminishes the time people have investign in gaining their skills. So some people have 0004 Marksman already. Why do you want to diminish that? Did they not earn those points.
Actually this take more explanation:
If someone has 0004 marksman, I am not diminishing anything. They ALREADY GOT their reward for grinding those 4 skill boxes, through the specials they recieved.
Your proposal has2 problems:
(1) It accumulates skills that have NOTHING to do with each other.
Let me ask you a question: Lets say I am a commando/TKA. I have spend almost all my skill points on combat, and don't have enough to take up artisan AND the engineering tree AND droid engineer. That is a good thing... it keeps me from being able to do everything in the game, and preserves the market for crafters. Basically, there are 3 types of players in game:
(a) Those that spend all their skill points on combat and can kill most of the the highest dollar mobs, but who can't craft at all and rely 100% on crafters for goods. However, some of the rarest items come from high end mobs, and only crafters will buy them (because they can't get them otherwise).
(b) Those that spend some skill points on combat and can kill some mobs, but have to group up to kill bigger mobs, and that spends the other part of their skill points and can craft some things for themselves but must rely on others for some things.
(c) Those that spend almost all their skill points on crafting, and can make almost everything, but rely on money from combat players and others to make a living.
If this weren't the case, there would be no players market for goods, because everyone would be able to both craft and kill things.
Now the question: If for 14 extra skill points (one tree) a combat profession (say a Bounty Hunter) couldmake some of your products (ex: seeker droids), don't you think that would be an unreasonable (and unbalancing) infringement into your market?
Well that is EXACTLY what we have here, only the opposite. Most of the skill points crafters spend are on prerequisites, and the skill points spent on those prerequisites are the key factor that prevents them from having both crafting AND pure combat ability. With this proposal you are unreasonably bridging that gap, and skipping over combat prereqs andsubstituting crafting prereqs. You are giving crafters whoearn 14 skill points (as in fight and actually earn them...not just buy them)in novice marksman good combat abilities, whereas combatants can't do the same without substantial skill point investments. So crafting prerequisites give both allow access to both crafting and combat, whereas combat prerequisites do not have the same balanced ability.
This is NOT balanced.
(2) You are giving people double utility for their skills. Think about it. Weaponsmithprerequitites double as prerequisites for DE...that make sense...both are crafting professions. Rifleman prereqs double as prerequisites for commando...both are shooting professions...that makes sense.
What you are suggesting is that crafters will now have the ability to use their prerequisites for BOTH combat and crafting, without any further prerequisites. That is unreasonable.
Yep I was agreeing with you. I still am, especially as to the part in bold.
Tarne_Monter wrote:
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
Tarne_Monter wrote:
I don't think that this proposal is at all crazy.
First of all, resources, time and money don't mean much as far as the dev's are concerned. And I agree with that stance. Given enough time all of them vanish away. It doesn't matter how *hard* the xp is to get, the valulable commodity in SWG is skillpoints. It also doesn't matter how *easy* the xp is to get either, in the case of the Novice Marksman and Artisan no xp required argument.
The skillcap creates skill scarsity. You have to work with the points you are given.
That said, this proposal includes substantial time sinks so that a new player will ahve to grind up to 0004 Marksman and 0040 DE. Combat exp required for 0004 Marksman is 30.5k. That is MORE exp than is required to get Marksman Pistols 4 which requires 90k in Pistol Exp. It would take 305,000k in Pistol exp to get 30k in Combat Exp. That's TWICE the amount of work to get Marksman Pistols 3, but the same amount of skill points. You see how this is a conservative rather than unbalanced plan?
[If my math is off pls correct me -- I am horrible at math]
I was just trying to say that while for new players without friends or at least high roller friends, the difficulty factor of earning said xp does take a long time, there is a certain point where the difficulty involved drops off fairly quickly. Most power gamers have this down to an art, hence why they are power gamers.
I was also trying to point out that what I have seen coming from the dev's points out that skillpoint usage is more important than xp and money required to get said skills. See the checkers debate for reference.
I honestly think that it's a great proposal. The crafters can craft without doing combat (which was why I was opposed to previous hybrid ideas), the combat DE's can do some combat and get better combat droids. The people who want to use bigger combat droids spend the skill points and get them. And the dev's are happy because players aren't getting free checkers. They spend the points, they get the increased combat ability.
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
Icarus-6 wrote:
Daker-Naritus wrote:
...Buying an extra novice profession (about 100cr) and spending 15 minutes with a crafting tool does not entitle you to extra combat ability no matter how you slice it.
Hey, if I'm going to stick up for you because they are claiming that you aren't reading and are distorting, at least have the good graces to read and not distort.
Their proposal requires the person to have 4 boxes of DE, not 4 boxes of Engineering. If you have some way to grind up the Droid Experimentation tree in only 15 minutes building nothing but mouse droids I would like to hear it.
This is what I'M talking about. The sad thing is, this proposal was based on balance by skill points from the start. Then this guy comes in here with these distorting one-liners trying to cloud the facts of the proposal and the consenus surrounding it.
Its official: SHAME ON YOU, MAN.
You want to talk substance, great, but this crap is straight from the crapper.
Sodan, again...if you want me to remain civil, I would suggest checking the attitude and be a grown up. If you read what I posted, you would see that Icarus misread what I posted. If you want to defend your idea, you are going to have to come at me with something better than "Shame on you man, I can't pay any attention to or read what you are saying because I am too blinded by my pride in my own idea."
Woops! Did I day twice the amount of pistol exp? I meant FOUR TIMES THE AMOUNT of pistol exp. My bad. I told ya I was bad with math!
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
Tarne_Monter wrote:
I don't think that this proposal is at all crazy.
First of all, resources, time and money don't mean much as far as the dev's are concerned. And I agree with that stance. Given enough time all of them vanish away. It doesn't matter how *hard* the xp is to get, the valulable commodity in SWG is skillpoints. It also doesn't matter how *easy* the xp is to get either, in the case of the Novice Marksman and Artisan no xp required argument.
The skillcap creates skill scarsity. You have to work with the points you are given.
That said, this proposal includes substantial time sinks so that a new player will ahve to grind up to 0004 Marksman and 0040 DE. Combat exp required for 0004 Marksman is 30.5k. That is MORE exp than is required to get Marksman Pistols 4 which requires 90k in Pistol Exp. It would take 305,000k in Pistol exp to get 30k in Combat Exp. That's TWICE the amount of work to get Marksman Pistols 4, but the same amount of skill points. You see how this is a conservative rather than unbalanced plan?
[If my math is off pls correct me -- I am horrible at math]
Your whole argument is based on the fact that DE is a full-fledged crafting profession. We are not. There is not a market for our droids, as there is a market for weapons or armor or harvesters or food. We are half of a crafting profession at best. The devs are leery in giving us "checkers" that would have a market, so what's wrong in filling in the missing half with some combat skills?
Daker-Naritus wrote:
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
Another propblem I have with your agruments generally is that it diminishes the time people have investign in gaining their skills. So some people have 0004 Marksman already. Why do you want to diminish that? Did they not earn those points.
Actually this take more explanation:
If someone has 0004 marksman, I am not diminishing anything. They ALREADY GOT their reward for grinding those 4 skill boxes, through the specials they recieved.
Your proposal has2 problems:
(1) It accumulates skills that have NOTHING to do with each other.
Let me ask you a question: Lets say I am a commando/TKA. I have spend almost all my skill points on combat, and don't have enough to take up artisan AND the engineering tree AND droid engineer. That is a good thing... it keeps me from being able to do everything in the game, and preserves the market for crafters. Basically, there are 3 types of players in game:
(a) Those that spend all their skill points on combat and can kill most of the the highest dollar mobs, but who can't craft at all and rely 100% on crafters for goods. However, some of the rarest items come from high end mobs, and only crafters will buy them (because they can't get them otherwise).
(b) Those that spend some skill points on combat and can kill some mobs, but have to group up to kill bigger mobs, and that spends the other part of their skill points and can craft some things for themselves but must rely on others for some things.
(c) Those that spend almost all their skill points on crafting, and can make almost everything, but rely on money from combat players and others to make a living.
If this weren't the case, there would be no players market for goods, because everyone would be able to both craft and kill things.
Now the question: If for 14 extra skill points (one tree) a combat profession (say a Bounty Hunter) couldmake some of your products (ex: seeker droids), don't you think that would be an unreasonable (and unbalancing) infringement into your market?
Well that is EXACTLY what we have here, only the opposite. Most of the skill points crafters spend are on prerequisites, and the skill points spent on those prerequisites are the key factor that prevents them from having both crafting AND pure combat ability. With this proposal you are unreasonably bridging that gap, and skipping over combat prereqs andsubstituting crafting prereqs. You are giving crafters whoearn 14 skill points (as in fight and actually earn them...not just buy them)in novice marksman good combat abilities, whereas combatants can't do the same without substantial skill point investments. So crafting prerequisites give both allow access to both crafting and combat, whereas combat prerequisites do not have the same balanced ability.
This is NOT balanced.
(2) You are giving people double utility for their skills. Think about it. Weaponsmithprerequitites double as prerequisites for DE...that make sense...both are crafting professions. Rifleman prereqs double as prerequisites for commando...both are shooting professions...that makes sense.
What you are suggesting is that crafters will now have the ability to use their prerequisites for BOTH combat and crafting, without any further prerequisites. That is unreasonable.
duncje wrote:
CH's get combat tanks and damage, do they spend any skill points in Combat skills? NO. And they can tame their own pets, so that equals the "crafting" ability that you're claiming the DE dabbler gets under this proposal (which is a false assumption).
I had given up on you, but I will try again.
There are 2 kinds of xp a CH needs to get CL36 pets.
(1) Scout xp - you get scout xp by killing a bunch of things and harvesting them (28 skill points earned, 15 bought)
(2) CH xp - you get ch xp by killing things with pets (34 skill points earned).
Ok, so both involve killing things.
There are 2 types of xp this proposal calls for:
(1) Combat xp (14 skill points earned, 15 bought)
(2) Crafting xp (28 skill points earned, 15 bought)
So I hope you can see the difference...62 skill points worth of combat killing compared to 14 worth. See the big difference?
duncje wrote:
Your whole argument is based on the fact that DE is a full-fledged crafting profession. We are not. There is not a market for our droids, as there is a market for weapons or armor or harvesters or food. We are half of a crafting profession at best. The devs are leery in giving us "checkers" that would have a market, so what's wrong in filling in the missing half with some combat skills?
Daker-Naritus wrote:
duncje wrote:
CH's get combat tanks and damage, do they spend any skill points in Combat skills? NO. And they can tame their own pets, so that equals the "crafting" ability that you're claiming the DE dabbler gets under this proposal (which is a false assumption).
I had given up on you, but I will try again.
There are 2 kinds of xp a CH needs to get CL36 pets.
(1) Scout xp - you get scout xp by killing a bunch of things and harvesting them (28 skill points earned, 15 bought)
(2) CH xp - you get ch xp by killing things with pets (34 skill points earned).
Ok, so both involve killing things.
There are 2 types of xp this proposal calls for:
(1) Combat xp (14 skill points earned, 15 bought)
(2) Crafting xp (28 skill points earned, 15 bought)
So I hope you can see the difference...62 skill points worth of combat killing compared to 14 worth. See the big difference?
Earning Ranged Support 4 is the same thing as earning Pistols 4 FOUR TIMES. It takes FOUR TIMES the exp as that skill trees. See the big difference?
Additionally, EVERY profession that has pre-reqs in two starting professions requires 15 skillpoints/each that must be purchased. Are you saying there is something wrong with the way the devs did that? Answer this point, Daker; I wanna see you try.
Additionally, 30 skillpoints is a HUGE chunk of change because what is scarse is the SKILLPOINTS not that MANNER in which they are earned. See the big difference?