Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Sodan's Hybrid DE Proposal
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
...Third, he has used outright LIES to promote his opposition. He said "CH requires two trees" knowing that this proposal required two trees as pre-reqs. He's said a number of other things that are complete mischaracterizations of what the stated andrepeated requirements of the plan are.
Yeah, I think this is one of the core issues. The only problem is I don't think what he doing is actively lying. He is disagreeing and part of his disagreement is based on perceptions.
Yes, your proposal requires 2 trees, just like CH. Drakar's point is that nearly everyone already has those trees, so arguing that you require two trees is sort of groundless.
Now again, I'm taking no sides. If you want to discuss his feelings about your proposal, great. I think it's just a bit harsh to say that he is lying.
On the other hand, he may not be making his point as clear as possible, either.
All I'm trying to do here is defuse the flames. Think about what he's saying and if you disagree with the idea that everyone already has it and it's a 'non-requirement' then say so. State why. Just don't denigrate his position by declaring his feelings in the matter are lies and distortions.
Uh.. no one uses pets in PvP man. Get with it.
Daker-Naritus wrote:
Shian_Tavkin wrote:
Dont BS me Daker, read what I said. Combat Specialists. A Commando is not a combat specialist, nor is a Rifleman etc etc. The PvP templates for the combat specialists do not have a single point free for anything Artisan, they are all min/maxed in a variety of combat professions and you know it.
Anyone who has an uber pvp template is not going to be benefited that much by a CL20-30 droid anyway. How does that limit them at all?
Additionally, they spend a truckload of skill points on COMBAT NOT CRAFTING. If a player divides their skills between crafting and combat, they deserve to be weaker.
What you are suggesting is that players can now "have their cake and eat it too." By investing some skill points in combat, and the rest in crafting as a DE, but be as powerful as the uber pvp players because they also get an additional CL20-30 pet.
That is exactly what I am telling you is wrong and will never fly with the devs.
Two players, both starting from noobie level have to spend the same amount of points to get the same amount of lvls. End of story.
Daker-Naritus wrote:
My argument has no holes, I just tried 3 times to help you see my point, and then gave up. I have laid it out multiple times that CH spend more skill points to get their combat abilities than a person under this plan would. This plan isn't balanced, you just don't want to see it.
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
We should fix this one, rather than make new ones.
duncje wrote:
Daker-Naritus wrote:
Add up the skill points. It would take a minimum of 78 skill points to be able to control droids that are less powerful than the CL 36 pets you can control at 0044 of CH, which costs 77 skill points. If anything, it is unbalanced to the DE side. It is more than fair to all involved.
No! No No No No!!!
With CH you buy one novice profession (15 skill points) and EARN the rest including 2 trees of CH, by xping 62 skill points worth of levels
(NOTE to Sodan: If you would re-read my posts you would see that my "two trees" argument is 2 CH trees, not 2 scout trees as you are saying, calling them "lies")
With the DE tree, you will buy two novice professions (30 skill points) and earn 47 skill points, 20 of which (engineering and novice de) involve nothing more then picking up some steel and spending 15 minutes grinding.
Buying an extra novice profession (about 100cr) and spending 15 minutes with a crafting tool does not entitle you to extra combat ability no matter how you slice it.
What abilities you get in the novice skill boxes is not relevant to this argument, as any box from any novice profession grants additional abilities or skills, with very few exceptions. And as to "a profession that most people take up anyway"... you're confusing the way you play the game with others. Not everybody plays the same way.
That is true that no one plays the game the same way. Unfortunately, your way of play is in the minority. Most players are engaged in the "uber template" seeking, the most bang for the buck, and will do whatever it takes to guarantee that ability.
If a player can get combat abilities including both specials for the skill boxes they master, extra droid handling ability along the way, AND the ability to craft (either through spending a couple of extra skill points for DE or by making the items under the engineering tree), don't you think that will be what they do?
It will take far longer to code a mini-profession. Most of the work for this proposal was already in progress, with a DC profession. It would take far less coding to add this work to an existing profession than it would be to code something that doesn't even exist in this game (mini-profession) and balance it out.
A mini proifession would be 2 trees. It will take more work to reorganize the 4 current DE trees to make room for the handling tree, and then make a new handling tree within the DE profession?
All it takes is one of the current 4 tree templates with the 2 outside trees greyed out...how freaking hard is that?
Icarus-6 wrote:
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
...Third, he has used outright LIES to promote his opposition. He said "CH requires two trees" knowing that this proposal required two trees as pre-reqs. He's said a number of other things that are complete mischaracterizations of what the stated andrepeated requirements of the plan are.
Yeah, I think this is one of the core issues. The only problem is I don't think what he doing is actively lying. He is disagreeing and part of his disagreement is based on perceptions.
Yes, your proposal requires 2 trees, just like CH. Drakar's point is that nearly everyone already has those trees, so arguing that you require two trees is sort of groundless.
Now again, I'm taking no sides. If you want to discuss his feelings about your proposal, great. I think it's just a bit harsh to say that he is lying.
On the other hand, he may not be making his point as clear as possible, either.
All I'm trying to do here is defuse the flames. Think about what he's saying and if you disagree with the idea that everyone already has it and it's a 'non-requirement' then say so. State why. Just don't denigrate his position by declaring his feelings in the matter are lies and distortions.
Thanks for trying to diffuse the flames. I think we're on our way there. But let me ask you this: there are LOTS of overlapping pre-reqs in this game. Why is that not ok here?
Daker-Naritus wrote:
...Buying an extra novice profession (about 100cr) and spending 15 minutes with a crafting tool does not entitle you to extra combat ability no matter how you slice it.
Hey, if I'm going to stick up for you because they are claiming that you aren't reading and are distorting, at least have the good graces to read and not distort.
Their proposal requires the person to have 4 boxes of DE, not 4 boxes of Engineering. If you have some way to grind up the Droid Experimentation tree in only 15 minutes building nothing but mouse droids I would like to hear it.
Daker-Naritus wrote:
duncje wrote:
Daker-Naritus wrote:
Add up the skill points. It would take a minimum of 78 skill points to be able to control droids that are less powerful than the CL 36 pets you can control at 0044 of CH, which costs 77 skill points. If anything, it is unbalanced to the DE side. It is more than fair to all involved.
No! No No No No!!!
With CH you buy one novice profession (15 skill points) and EARN the rest including 2 trees of CH, by xping 62 skill points worth of levels
(NOTE to Sodan: If you would re-read my posts you would see that my "two trees" argument is 2 CH trees, not 2 scout trees as you are saying, calling them "lies")
With the DE tree, you will buy two novice professions (30 skill points) and earn 47 skill points, 20 of which (engineering and novice de) involve nothing more then picking up some steel and spending 15 minutes grinding.
Buying an extra novice profession (about 100cr) and spending 15 minutes with a crafting tool does not entitle you to extra combat ability no matter how you slice it.
Other than arguing that "some people already have this skills" you have yet to refute the balance of this plan 78 points for 25-35 droid lvls just like 77 points for 36s pet lvl. Grinding takes the same amount of steel and fiber as it took you to grind.
Another propblem I have with your agruments generally is that it diminishes the time people have investign in gaining their skills. So some people have 0004 Marksman already. Why do you want to diminish that? Did they not earn those points.
Don't ask me. Ask Drakar. I'm not defending his position so much as just his right to have a position and asking that if he says something that you think is BS then say why you think it's BS. Then he has the option to clarify his statement or to try and see things your way. If all you do is say it's BS he can't really do much but try repeating himself, and no one wants that.
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
...Thanks for trying to diffuse the flames. I think we're on our way there. But let me ask you this: there are LOTS of overlapping pre-reqs in this game. Why is that not ok here?
Daker-Naritus wrote:
duncje wrote:
Daker-Naritus wrote:
Add up the skill points. It would take a minimum of 78 skill points to be able to control droids that are less powerful than the CL 36 pets you can control at 0044 of CH, which costs 77 skill points. If anything, it is unbalanced to the DE side. It is more than fair to all involved.
No! No No No No!!!
With CH you buy one novice profession (15 skill points) and EARN the rest including 2 trees of CH, by xping 62 skill points worth of levels
(NOTE to Sodan: If you would re-read my posts you would see that my "two trees" argument is 2 CH trees, not 2 scout trees as you are saying, calling them "lies")
With the DE tree, you will buy two novice professions (30 skill points) and earn 47 skill points, 20 of which (engineering and novice de) involve nothing more then picking up some steel and spending 15 minutes grinding.
Buying an extra novice profession (about 100cr) and spending 15 minutes with a crafting tool does not entitle you to extra combat ability no matter how you slice it.
How easy it is to spend the skill points is irrelevant as well. All that matters is that you have to spend the skill points. The devs really don't care how easy it is to get there, only the costs (skill-point wise) involved. That was the point in not making DE a hybrid profession before, was there wasn't any additional skill points involved for the extra abilities.
And, even though it's irrelevant, Ranged Support 4 is not that easy to get. Go start a newbie character and try and grind it out. It will take you forever.
What abilities you get in the novice skill boxes is not relevant to this argument, as any box from any novice profession grants additional abilities or skills, with very few exceptions. And as to "a profession that most people take up anyway"... you're confusing the way you play the game with others. Not everybody plays the same way.
That is true that no one plays the game the same way. Unfortunately, your way of play is in the minority. Most players are engaged in the "uber template" seeking, the most bang for the buck, and will do whatever it takes to guarantee that ability.
If a player can get combat abilities including both specials for the skill boxes they master, extra droid handling ability along the way, AND the ability to craft (either through spending a couple of extra skill points for DE or by making the items under the engineering tree), don't you think that will be what they do?
There really isn't that much crafting ability granted. You can't make anything in the 0040 tree of DE. Anything at all. On test, the droid "stims" are in this tree, but it wouldn't be hard to move them.
It will take far longer to code a mini-profession. Most of the work for this proposal was already in progress, with a DC profession. It would take far less coding to add this work to an existing profession than it would be to code something that doesn't even exist in this game (mini-profession) and balance it out.
A mini proifession would be 2 trees. It will take more work to reorganize the 4 current DE trees to make room for the handling tree, and then make a new handling tree within the DE profession?
All it takes is one of the current 4 tree templates with the 2 outside trees greyed out...how freaking hard is that?
DE, as it stands now doesn't need to be reworked. There is nothing in the 0040 tree except experimentation, which grants no crafting abilities. All that would be required is for them to move something they are working on, the stims, to another tree. Simple.
As others have said, come up with a proposal for your Mini-profession. One that's balanced and fits into how the skill trees work now. It's not that easy. This proposal requires much less work than an entire new profession would be, be it a mini-profession or a new full profession.
Icarus-6 wrote:
Daker-Naritus wrote:
...Buying an extra novice profession (about 100cr) and spending 15 minutes with a crafting tool does not entitle you to extra combat ability no matter how you slice it.
Hey, if I'm going to stick up for you because they are claiming that you aren't reading and are distorting, at least have the good graces to read and not distort.
Their proposal requires the person to have 4 boxes of DE, not 4 boxes of Engineering. If you have some way to grind up the Droid Experimentation tree in only 15 minutes building nothing but mouse droids I would like to hear it.
This is what I'M talking about. The sad thing is, this proposal was based on balance by skill points from the start. Then this guy comes in here with these distorting one-liners trying to cloud the facts of the proposal and the consenus surrounding it.
Its official: SHAME ON YOU, MAN.
You want to talk substance, great, but this crap is straight from the crapper.
Tarne_Monter wrote:
I don't think that this proposal is at all crazy.
First of all, resources, time and money don't mean much as far as the dev's are concerned. And I agree with that stance. Given enough time all of them vanish away. It doesn't matter how *hard* the xp is to get, the valulable commodity in SWG is skillpoints. It also doesn't matter how *easy* the xp is to get either, in the case of the Novice Marksman and Artisan no xp required argument.
The skillcap creates skill scarsity. You have to work with the points you are given.
That said, this proposal includes substantial time sinks so that a new player will ahve to grind up to 0004 Marksman and 0040 DE. Combat exp required for 0004 Marksman is 30.5k. That is MORE exp than is required to get Marksman Pistols 4 which requires 90k in Pistol Exp. It would take 305,000k in Pistol exp to get 30k in Combat Exp. That's TWICE the amount of work to get Marksman Pistols 3, but the same amount of skill points. You see how this is a conservative rather than unbalanced plan?
[If my math is off pls correct me -- I am horrible at math]