Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Please help me understand your change of heart.
This sounds bad....no cert system would just be bad. Its just depressing to make a droid that will blowup instanly in combat. I would like to make something that would last a bit in combat like a midrange pet in CH, something that only a Master DE could make maybe.
Well I hope this can happen.
1. We do have to admit that for months we were begging for better combat droids. There should be better combat droids than probots. I know that I want better combat droids. Just a small remark, since some posts on this thread give the impression that we always only wanted more utility functions. We want both - most of us obviously want some useful "support" droids more than big combat droids. Its not either the one or the other - we want both.
2. Balancing - when you add something, why not subtract something at the same time ? When you give a droid to a combat class via cert system, why not taking away some of their damage in return ? Someone posted a great idea about optional skillboxes. Let them choose: the better rifle or the old rifle and a droid. Why isn´t that possible ?
Seems like some other people have the same idea as me, check out this thread started by TheWoody.. it'd be swell if we could come up with an agreeable solution based on this idea:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=droid_engineer&message.id=54029
I am against a DH profession. Pretty silly idea. What is the only thing you would need to know as a DH? How to program a droid. Once a droid is programmed then a 4 year old could have it slaughter the farm. Nothing like the bond a creature and its master develops. We develop technology to make our lives easier whether that be in industry or on the battlefield.
A cert system using the name of the droid instead of a numerical point system based off the level of droid would serve to prevent people from min/maxing the level of droids they can use. the system would be just like the weapon cert system. What is a droid? it is technology. Look at the technology that ordinary soldiers have at their disposal today vs 50 years ago. I couldnt fathom the technology a soldier could use in the SW universe. With that being said the normal solider in the SWG is going to have access to a droid to assist in combat in some function.
At novice marksman and brawler you get droideka X. At novice elite combat class or master brawler or marksman you get droideka Y. Master elite combat class you get uber droideka Z. How simple can that be? All combat classes would get the certs at an equal level. There would be no stacking as we see today with defences. Maybe BH should get a little more and the TKA none because they are suppose to be a monk 
Give the scout and the ranger some form of droid to help in their business
another cert would be
master medic gets the surgical droid which"would"be the only one that can have a level 4 or higher medical module.
(more than likely someone has already come up with the idea, but I would rather spend time playing than trying to find past posts)
I have spent many months as a DE. I saw the fall of the probot just as I could make them. The entire time we have not asked for combat droids alone. I think we would prefer not to be only a combat droid maker. We wanted droids for all the other professions... entertainer droids, smuggler droids, BE droids, etc.
Thunderheart wrote:
The Cert system will not work. With a cert system, all the combat in the game would have to get harder and people without a Droid Cert would have a tougher game to play.
We (Crafters) are faced with an impossible game now, how can it get worse?
We have almost no content (1 quest that requires hiring mercanaries to complete)
In order to do our jobs we have to wander into the badlands and face monsters we have no hope of defeating unless we take combat skills.
The main theme of the game is inaccessible because our only ways of being involvedare to:
a) run delivery missions.
b) Harvest resources and contribute them to a player base. (Type doesn't matter, nor does quality as far as I can tell)
Please, tell me how it could get worse?
I just cannot stand the condescension here TH. "Please help me understand your change of heart"? That implies that this monumentalerror known as the DH wasmade bythe end of the player community. This is simply not the case.
Clearly, the big hangup here is the combat droid issue. If it's such a problem, lets skip it. We're not aiming to oust the CH from the 'so unnecessarily powerful because it seems to be some developer's pet profession' position at all. We were very briefly once, and some are still clinging to the idea that a master DE perk should be some megadroid, but those are a minority now. Many of us would like to see new combat droids so that we can have a little more variety. We've got, what, 12 droids we can craft and the advanced versions thereof? Lame, in a universe that (I'll say it again until you people comprehend this) should be teeming with droids and isn't.
So to sum that up, we DO want new combat droids, but we don't care if they're as weak as a newborn MSE, we just want some variety here. You developer folks seem unable to move past that point, so there, I've gotten past it for you, ok? Now read on, because here's where we get to the REAL ISSUE that's been whizzing past your head.
Make. The. Other. Droids. Useful.
WHOA, MINDFECKED, YOU JUST BLEW MY MIND! Yes. This is the whole issue. Astromech droids are more than crafting stations. Protocol droids are more than furniture. Look to the movies. There are hundreds of droids that can do this that and the other thing, and they're being skipped over entirely, even when they should theoretically be able to round out our profession just the way we want it to be rounded out. Here, TH, here is the giant golden nugget we've been wanting you to see.
As it stands in the game, droids are falling into two categories: Combat droids and Crafting Station Droids. You could sorta call medical droids their own class, so I guess that's three. But that's really it. And that's the problem, droids aren't generally categorized. You could call C-3PO and M-3PO and the SE-4 all protocol droids, but each has a different purpose. All three can translate, but C-3PO also knows diplomatic protocol, SE-4s know formal entertaining protocol, M-3PO is familiar with military protocol. The R2, R3, R4, and R5 can all be used as astromechs, but were built with different things in mind. R2 was meant to be the ultimate in fighter/small ship repair/navigation. R3 was programmed with large scale military cruiser repair functions. The R4 is meant for the low end consumer and knows landspeeder and small freighter repair. R5 is an ultra-cheap version of the R2.
All of that makes for a wonderful variety of differences that we DEs would love to capitalize on, but that isn't the case here. All of them are essentially the same shell with more slots to fit the same old crafting stations. Not at all the familiar purposes as seen in Star Wars, and not at all entertaining for those of us fascinated with Star Wars's droids. There's another golden nugget for you: those of us that aren't here because of holocrons are doing it because we just love droids, and are ashamed of how they are being represented.
Perhaps that will get through to you. At any rate, I see two ways to proceed right now, and frankly, I recommend we go both routes at once.
1) You or the dev team go pick up a dozen copies of The Essential Guide to Droids (I know you can get them, Haden just finished the new Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels, so someone has a connection). Read through some of the droids in there. That should offer some more ideas of what CAN be done and what we're al expecting.
2) Give up on the combat droids for now. Just give it up. It's clearly not being understood, and we'd rather focus on all the other issues. Really.
OK how about this for Droid Usage
Droids upto the equivalent of CL10 can be used by anybody
Higher Level Droids can be operated by :
All --> A droid Engineer (related to 1 of the 4 trees, prob. experimentation)
The rest of use have to earn them via a cerificate granted from Faction Point expenditure some of which require you to be overt.
Thus we encourage the GCW allow anyone to use them and dont need a new class !
Be Well, Bob'the Builder
/deepbow TH
I think this is what the general consensus is...
I am a DE... DE = crafter!
I am a DE not a bio-engineer, I am not a creature handler. Droids should be easier to control than a creature. e.g. your new puppy needs to be house broken... but your droid eh... shut it off 
I am a DE and I don't want to spendMANY or ANY skill points to use droids!
for example I am master DE, artisan, merchant, and a little pistol skills. I should NOT have to loose any existing skills to use the droids I created...
What this means... I want a certification system to use droids based on the professionsI have already mastered! A new skill tree that costs me 63 or 77 skill points is unacceptable.
Why unacceptable... unlike the politician profession (which was also added late to the game) EVERY ONE wants to use droids! It is a simple fact... It is true everyone wants to use droids to a certain degree... The problem lies in the fact that to use UBER droids *cough* droideka *cough* you need to spend skill points!I consiede if you don't make uber droid usage cost skill points it unbalances the GAME!
But as I stated before we don't want to be a bio-engineer/creature handler... it is a bad idea to build a game with identical professions with only the model's skins and stats change...
Droid Engineers DO NOT LIKE change... um ok no one really likes change... but DEs want to be able to use the droids they have created!
Besides... without adding functionality to DEs (e.g. bio engineered clothes) we will never equal BEs!
I proposed earlier a MINI Droid Handler tree... see my post here...
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=droid_engineer&message.id=49183&page=4
I am beginning to see that a Droid Handler tree is NEEDED to allow UBER droids (droideka's etc) to be on the same level as a rancor or kimo... The power levelof the droids we want is undeniable... WE want a droid that can go toe to toe with a BE creature...
So this is what i am proposing... /flameshieldup
ADD a Droid Handler tree to the basic skill tree... add it next to marksman, artisan, brawler, etc... But edit the skill point cost...
novice DH is 1 point and 100cr. to train...
then the skills go 2 points for tier 1,
3 points for tier 2,
4 points for tier 3,
5 points for tier 4,
and 1 point for master...
NOW this is the most important part...
Droid usage will have a maximum of 100 points just like all the other skills...
If you master Droid handler you get 100 points... now here is the kicker...
if you master Droid Engineer... you get 50 or 75 points to droid usage. These points can be scattered through out the tree...
But the beauty of this system is you only need novice DH, and tier 1 and/or tier 2 to get 100 points of Droid usage... so a maximum of 21 skill points... ok I'll drop master merchant so i can use uber droids...
This system also adds a bonus... if you exceed 100 points of droid usage skill you can later add quest droids! Ohhh... wait... what was that? Thats right... DEs can get a super droid akin to the RIS armor quest... But ONLY Master Droid Engineers w/ the Droid handler tree can use this quest droid...
sounds like I would give up all of merchant to use that...
Check out my mini DH tree if you like... But this idea WILL WORK!
This proposal does 2 things...
1.) it provides a limit on Droid usage so we don't have newbie Droid Wars! It gives a reasonable control mechanism that SWG NEEDS!
2.) it provides an AWESOME bonus for DEs... it also keeps DEs from sacrificing too much to use their creations...
The numbers might need to be adjusted... but i don't know if anyone can create a compromise that both sides can agree on... You can't have your cake and eat it too... but this is as close as it gets for the DEs...
So the question is. DEs, can you sacrifice 21 skill points to use droids as well as anyone else in the game? Or with no sacrificeyou can use all but the top tier of droids... (say lvl 40 droids under the pet lvl system).
Is this reasonable?
Devs is this reasonable? Does it provide enough of a control on the player base?
/deepbow DEs..
/deepbow Devs...
Crap I forgot...
my above proposal only applies to COMBAT droids... NON combat droids... (e.g. w/o combat modules or combat capabilities) are usable just as they are today!
/deepbow
As one of the 28 "Yes" votes, I would like to add my perspective to this important thread.
Initially, I was against the idea of a separate Droid Handler profession, for a number of reasons. I did not think another profession was needed in the game just to control combat droids, that the certifications for combat droids could be spread out across all professions in some balanced manner. Further, I was unclear as to how the DE profession would fit into SWG with a DH profession. Would DE simply become a "slave" profession, used only to feed the needs of the Droids Handlers? Would all other droid functionality and features be removed, replaced solely with schematics to build combat droids? The unknown can send the imagination wild.
My fears were put to rest yesterday, when I read Thunderheat's brief blurb that explained the proposed relationship between DE's and DH's. Droid engineers will build combat droids, and droid handlers will use them. But wait you say! Didn't I just say that I feared this scenario? To explain how my anxiety turned to relief, there is another element to how this scenario plays out.
That element is the combat system. Thunderheart explicitly stated how combat droids are going to fit in with the existing pet control structure. This is a system I am well aware SOE went to great lengths to refine into it's current state. In short, no player can control a pet higher than CL10 without consuming points in their 250-point skill pool. In other words, you need to earn the "right" to use CL10+ pets, whether droid or creature.
I see this as only fair, because we all choose what professions we want to play. In short, CL10+ pets of any kind begin to rival the combat skills of the combat professions. If CL10+ pets are usable by anyone, it greatly diminishes the value of all combat professions. But further, it diminishes the value of non-combat professions as well! Yes, that is correct. If everyone has access to powerful pets/droids, it makes the decision to enter non-combat professions all the easier. Artisans are valuable because they are taken by players willing to forgo combat skills in order to produce items usable by the SWG community. The same can be said of entertainers and medics.
Given this, consider that there are two competing forces concerning combat droids:
- There is a huge demand by the SWG community to use combat droids (I believe this to be obvious).
- CL10+ combat droids must fall into a certification structure.
An all-encompassing profession certification system is not feasible, for the reasons stated above. Using Okham's razor, there is one simple solution: have a profession dedicated to using CL10+ combat droids. The CH profession would be the most logical "bolt-on" profession, but CH is about the taming and use of creature pets. Therefore, having a separate profession dedicated to the handling of droids serves two purposes:
- It will allow every player in the game to obtain access to high-end combat droids.
- It will be 100% consistent with the existing combat system, as skill points will need to be consumed to obtain powerful combat droid functionality.
Getting back to my "fear", the point is that this rational is completely consistent with the current game mechanics. Further, there is absolutely no indication that DE's will become a slave profession to DH's, as theorized above.
Briefly, I will address the notion that droid engineers should have the ability to use high-end (or at least unique) combat droids. If one pursues the DE profession, there are absolutely no skill boxes that must be consumed relating to combat. There are no combat-related skill mods, abilities, or certifications anywhere in either the artisan engineer tree or the DE profession. Becoming a DE means you have earned the right to build droids, not use them. All skill points consumed by DE's are 100% geared towards the crafting of droids. The same is true of all artisan professions.
In my game experiences, I have grown to have a great appreciation for the need for combat game balance. I have dabbled in rifles, pistols, swords, and presently I am pursing TKA. Earning these combat-related skill boxes has taught me why combat balance is so important. In pursuit of these combat skills, I am in effect seeking the right to utilize more powerful combat mechanics. This premise must hold true for all forms of combat activity, otherwise combat balance would be null and void.
The Droid Handler profession will be great for the game, but it will also be great for droid engineers. We will have a market for both certified and non-certified combat droid users! The demand for these droids will be high, as anyone who listens to droid customer comments will adhere to. And for those that think the DH profession will "limit" our sales potential, I respectfully disagree. The market will be relatively strong for CL10 droids (evidenced by current probot sales), and DH will be one of the most "dabbled" professions in the game.
One last comment: Droid engineers have the most special ability in this entire game. We get the build the galaxies' droids! I believe that in itself is the ultimate cool, and I hope my fellow droid engineers will see this as well.