Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Please help me understand your change of heart.
neinnunb wrote:
Combat droids is one thing, but in this stage in the SW storyline, droids were used mainly as utility machines. Droids are swiss army knives. I would MUCH rather the DE profession focus on that aspect of droids and not just combat droids. There are many good ideas people have brought up as to new module ideas. Are the devs considering adding non-combat modules for droids? If this whole droid invasion program is only about combat droids, I will be dissappointed.
Exactly. This isn't Episode 1 with droid armies everywhere. Droids in this time period are mostly servile, not combat-oriented - with a few exceptions (and let's remember that IG-88 was supposed to be a prototype that went awry).
Sorry to jump in here; I'm not a droid engineer myself, but I think you're an important andunderappreciated profession. I mean, vehicles haven't been out that long and already they're getting upgrade kits and whatnot.
That said...
I'd like to see droids become more useful, wanted and varied. Ifthe devs are going to introduce a "Droid Invasion" that's solely combat oriented then they should just integrate them into the GCW and make those combat droids useable only in factions (a pseudo-faction perk). Or, like allowing AT-STs to be craftable buy DEs. But I don't see any reason to have a droid handler profession. The droid certs proposal seemed a bit more interesting than this.
AudioOrgana wrote:
Real easy soloution to that - cap them.
I had assumed with any cert system this would be the case.
It's meant to be a benefit of an elite profession - like getting a T21 at novice rifleman. If you already have the cert, and gain it again from another profession again, it doesn't double the cert - you are already certified.
Think of it like weapons certification, not a skill bonus. It's not "droid bonuses" it's "droid certifications".
There could be "Droid Level" 1-3. Once you have "Droid Level 2", it doesn't matter if you pick up another profession enough to get another "Droid Level 2" certification - you are already certified, it is irrelevant. They don't stack - so you don't get to Level 3 until you get to Level 3 naturally.
Audio, you miss the point entirely. Well, not entirely, but the biggest factor. The thing is it doesn't matter how much extra power you give a player. Adding any power at all changes the delicate balance of game systems. Look at the mayhem of imbalance that sprung from CL15 non-CH pets as a perfect example. CL15 wasn't a "power overwhelming" or "God mode" kind of situation, but it was more than enough to mess things up. Certs would do the same thing, because you're adding power to a player's arsenal at no cost.
Likewise, I'm not so sure the combat classes will "eat up the difference". The net result will be that either their current class inherent abilities will be nerfed to allow for the power being added in the form of a droid, or "the bar" will be raised, making combat more difficult to impossible for those without a droid. That's not fair, either. 3,000 people are going to force 300,000 people to use a droid in combat, whether they like it or not? I look forward to Runesabre's likely more elequent version of what I'm trying to say.
All the complaints about skill point limitations are like trying to remedy a perceived flaw in the skill point system with duct tape. Instead of giving them combat droids to offset a higher skillpoint cost, balance the costs themselves. You treat the actual problem, not the individual symptoms of it. As with the MA issue for instance - it's already been agreed that either others' MA dependance will increase, or ours will decrease to balance that out, so it shouldn't even be part of the argument.
Along those same lines, your argument that you're not free to experience the rest of the game is also moot. You do, after all, have the opportunity to create alts on other servers. You're free to explore other aspects of the game through those alternate characters. And if you'd say "but I want my char on the same server", well, creating on another server is just another form of exploring the whole game and all its varied communities.
Thunderheart wrote:
Sketh wrote:
This is not a change of heart.
Please see Drashak's cert system proposed here:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=droid_engineer&message.id=52473
THAT is what we wanted, not a droid handler class.
That is probably not possible, though I will find out.
Droid Certs wont work because there are so many combat class combinations that some one will inevitably find an uber-combo with a powerful droid.
Faction Droids are planned, but they are down the road a bit.
Ok I might get banned for this. But I say "Good for him!" The player that spends enough time to find the Uber droid combo will become a Legand on all servers. I feel it would be like going into the cantina at Theed to find out Darth Vader was just there and bought a round for the house. I don't want to make Droids for just one or a few professions, I wish to make em for all. I not only want combat droids, but I also want Slicer Droids for my smuggler friends,The 87-RM Scout Collector for the Bio-Engineers (pg118, The Essential Guide to Droids.) City Maintenance Droids for our Politicians, FX and MD Medical Droids for Doctors. I know its alot to ask for and I do understand we are just makeing your job harder TH, But really all I ever wanted to do was make Droids that everyone could enjoy not just a select few.
SioBabble wrote:
So too the problem with droids, For them to have a usefull role in the game, they'd coopt too many time sinks that the devs are counting on to keep the crafters busy. These apply to those who are master crafters as much as those who are working their way up. Gotta make those runs to the heavy mining installations or wind generators. It's the only content they've got, and they're sticking to it.
Sio, with all due respect (seriously - as I do respect you), you don't know what you are talking about here.
Droids are not so much about eliminating time sinks as enhancing rewards of those timesinks.
For instance, a slicing droid. No, not that slices things FOR you, but that gives you a BONUS to slicing.
An entertainer module for droids, not that replaces the entertainer, but allows them to heal in the field, much like a medical droid does now.
There are dozens of ways that droids could be implemented to support professions, not replace them.
The fact is, as you point out, right now we are useful to crafters and medics. That is why it would be absolutely absurd to do anything but add to the profession - taking one of it's products away and making a whole new class over it when the original class was never fully developed is silly.
We need several types of new droids, combat droids are only part of that.
But does anyone think the content is coming out to support a WHOLE NEW droid profession, when the current one is only half-done, is coming out anytime before the space expansion? Come on - we just finally got chat semi-stable. The "monthy stories" are becoming quarterly.
A DH profession at this point would be absoultely empty, and anyone who's profession has yet to be completed or is relatively broken (from Smuggler to Pikeman) should be insulted that they were considering adding yet another profession before we fix what we already have.
As a DE, that slap in the face is two-fold - not only is it taking away from our fixing time, but it's going to promise that instead of working on the DE profession and bringing it to where it needs to be in terms of ALL types of droids they are going to spend the development time desperately trying to fill up four skill trees that we didn't need in the first place.
Audio
Kurt_Mendel wrote:
Audio, you miss the point entirely. Well, not entirely, but the biggest factor. The thing is it doesn't matter how much extra power you give a player. Adding any power at all changes the delicate balance of game systems. Look at the mayhem of imbalance that sprung from CL15 non-CH pets as a perfect example. CL15 wasn't a "power overwhelming" or "God mode" kind of situation, but it was more than enough to mess things up. Certs would do the same thing, because you're adding power to a player's arsenal at no cost.
I don't miss that point at all.
It's just that I don't see this ideal SWG that you seem to think exists.
May I remind you, we are about to have a huge combat revamp? And if droids are part of the equation, so be it.
You try to cloud the issue by crying "balance" like it exists - it doesn't. This game is in a constant flux - talk to a pikeman and then to a master pistoleer, and seem what their individual ideas of balance are.
I'm sorry, but I feel as if you are missing the point entirely.
If these combat droids they want to bring on are going to require a profession dedicated to buying them, there have to be a LOT of them. Four skill trees (18 boxes counting master and novice) is going to need a lot of droids to support it. Droids that only these droid handlers will buy, and if scaled to the droids we have now in terms of resource cost and rarity, and you have a monopoly on both sides of the equation. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't even stock the things - there aren't going to be enough people in that profession to make it viable, fiscally or in terms of my play time in gathering and building droids with such a limited audience.
Personally, at this point I'm willing to say to hell with combat droids at all - just fix our profession, give us more useful droids, and do this combat droid thing with the space expansion.
Putting time and effort into another profession is not what we need - balance (as much as you can ever achieve in an MMO) can be made if worked on.
I am a Droid Engineer, and I want the profession I've been promised since beta. I do not want to see Droid development time spent on a second droid profession when the current one does not work. It's that simple.
Audio
AudioOrgana wrote:
SioBabble wrote:
So too the problem with droids, For them to have a usefull role in the game, they'd coopt too many time sinks that the devs are counting on to keep the crafters busy. These apply to those who are master crafters as much as those who are working their way up. Gotta make those runs to the heavy mining installations or wind generators. It's the only content they've got, and they're sticking to it.
Sio, with all due respect (seriously - as I do respect you), you don't know what you are talking about here.
Droids are not so much about eliminating time sinks as enhancing rewards of those timesinks.
For instance, a slicing droid. No, not that slices things FOR you, but that gives you a BONUS to slicing.
An entertainer module for droids, not that replaces the entertainer, but allows them to heal in the field, much like a medical droid does now.
There are dozens of ways that droids could be implemented to support professions, not replace them.
The fact is, as you point out, right now we are useful to crafters and medics. That is why it would be absolutely absurd to do anything but add to the profession - taking one of it's products away and making a whole new class over it when the original class was never fully developed is silly.
We need several types of new droids, combat droids are only part of that.
But does anyone think the content is coming out to support a WHOLE NEW droid profession, when the current one is only half-done, is coming out anytime before the space expansion? Come on - we just finally got chat semi-stable. The "monthy stories" are becoming quarterly.
A DH profession at this point would be absoultely empty, and anyone who's profession has yet to be completed or is relatively broken (from Smuggler to Pikeman) should be insulted that they were considering adding yet another profession before we fix what we already have.
As a DE, that slap in the face is two-fold - not only is it taking away from our fixing time, but it's going to promise that instead of working on the DE profession and bringing it to where it needs to be in terms of ALL types of droids they are going to spend the development time desperately trying to fill up four skill trees that we didn't need in the first place.
Audio
Audio,
You know I respect you, ever since those heady days in beta where you proposed a w00t-free server.
Ah, what memories.
But you've proven my point. Your ideas of droids that ENHANCE skills are just too advanced for the devs, who apparenly checked in their outside the box thinking cap the instant they signed their contracts with SOE.
Droids should be amplifying the abilities of players; but amplification is the LAST thing that the devs want. The CH profession, which has been nerfed again and again, offers us an example. CHs must be nerfed because they allow players to tank things that they should not be able to tank, according to the devs.ExhibitA is the recent nerf that took away the XP from the second called pet to prolong theskill grind. TKAs, mark my words: you're next on the nerf hit parade.
Which is why the combat droid idea might be fun for a while, but ultimately doesn't go about solving the real problem that DEs face.
Anything that threatens the all important profession grind, by augmenting a player's abilities or skills is seen as threatening to "balance" or to the only content we've got.
The crux of the issue is that droids need to be useful to every player in SWG for DEs to have a place. Just as everyone needs a medic once and a while, or needs a vehicle, or needs a weapon, so too there need to be real reasons to have a droid at your side. Medics and crafters have a reason. If more players knew about droid storage compartments, that would be helpful, too.
Droids should be EVERYWHERE, all over the place, peforming useful work, making the lives of their meatbag masters easier and more fulfilling. Nowadays, most droids are little more than furniture for the most part, which is a real shame.
I noticed that TH said that a cert system wouldn't work, as they would have to raise combat difficulty all around. Have they completely ignored doctor buffs? So everyone can use doctor buffs, and with them solo rancors (which with doc buffs and spice, one can do at marksman0200), but somewone with a droidaround cl20 is gamebreaking?
As somebody said earlier, it's time for the devs to start thinking outside the box. The very idea of a DH profession is a sign of complete laziness, and utter lack of originality. The cert system would nowhere near come close to gamebreaking as they say. DE's want everyone to able to enjoy their droids. Droids were a crucial part of the star wars universe, and handled by many, many people. Are you going to tell me that everyone in the movies was a DH? The cert system would work, however thier have been other options brought forth, such as a parallel skillbox at certain levels that consume skill pts for droid certs.
I'm not trying to sound rude, but it seems as if the devs are just too lazy to do anything like this, and are looking always for the programming path of least resistance.
DH profession is totally not what we wanted.. Now what I want isn't totally what "we" want either, but I'd prefer to see this than a totally separate profession to control something that is totally programmed on how to do it's job and self aware...
It's seems the biggest issue here is: balance. You want us to spend skillpoints to gain the power of a CH equivalent.
But you are forgetting, CH has two options: Tame wild creatures,OR buy tailor made creatures from a BE.. DE has one option: Get to Master DE before you can even make a combat droid even remotely worthy of the name.
I don't want CL 70 droids.. But I want something slightly tougher than a wet tissue.
So, I propose that to solve the "balance" issue:
- DE bechanged to requireMaster Artisan instead of just Engineering IV (lots of DE have this anyway, because of the requirements for MA parts).. That fixes the spending of skillpoints issue.
- Since it seems that a CH is ok to have a Rancor with 14k HAM with armor/resists for less skillpoints than my proposal, but not for us to have combat droids that powerful, I propose that we get combat droids that are around the 9k (faction pet stormtrooper commando for eg, purchaseable for 650 skillpoints on my Twi'Lek) mark, with medium/heavy armor and good resists, with a range of droids (and use allowance)from probot at 1/1/1/1 up to these monsters at Master DE
That way, we're still not as tough as a CH with a good tamed pet, or an average bio-engineered pet.. but at the same time, our combat droids will be actually worth using.. and there's still room left then forimprovements to existing modules (like the proposed Entertainer Station, Slicing Helper etc).
This proposal solves all the problems.. easily. Skillpoints spent - Check. Not as powerful as CH/BE - Check. Crafters still get to craft droids for others - Check. DE Dabblers don't get the powerful droids - Check.
Feel free to tell me what's wrong with this idea.
For me, it's all pretty moot anyway.. I'm certainly not waiting 6 months for changes to even START happening.
Thunderheart wrote:
The problem with Droid Certs is that it would raise the combat bar and there would have to be a lot of rule changes. I'm working with the team now to pull together some information on all the problems a cert system would bring. Either myself or Runsabre will post on it today.
This kinda sounds like "we don't like the cert system so we're going to find a way to squash it".
This droid invasion is 100% focused on combat droids. Screw that... there's a lot of other droids that need to be added/fixed before combat droids.
Thunderheart,
You've been out of touch it seems. We got into this with Holocron and made it clear at the beginning that the majority of DE's were opposed to a Droid Handler profession. I don't know where you got your impression that there's been a change of heart. The consensus has always been opposed to a Droid Handler profession.
There is no or was any change of heart. I just beleave there is a misunderstanding. As it stand De's are more dependant on master Artisan and architech class then any other profession is dependant on any class. By trying to add a third class (Droid Handler) you are straining the playability of DE class. i for one want a duel combat/craft class but will settle for a cert on droids if I have to. Please do not add a new class just to give us combat droids. Its bad enough DE's are so limited and co-dependant as is.
If we want to make good high class droids we need master artisan and architech parts.
If we want to sale we have to have a vendor but to really be notice we have to pickup the merchant class.
if we want to collect resources we have to have survey (the Force knows we can't afford to buy any).
just an example.