Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Sodan's Hybrid DE Proposal
Shian_Tavkin wrote:
Dont BS me Daker, read what I said. Combat Specialists. A Commando is not a combat specialist, nor is a Rifleman etc etc. The PvP templates for the combat specialists do not have a single point free for anything Artisan, they are all min/maxed in a variety of combat professions and you know it.
Anyone who has an uber pvp template is not going to be benefited that much by a CL20-30 droid anyway. How does that limit them at all?
Additionally, they spend a truckload of skill points on COMBAT NOT CRAFTING. If a player divides their skills between crafting and combat, they deserve to be weaker.
What you are suggesting is that players can now "have their cake and eat it too." By investing some skill points in combat, and the rest in crafting as a DE, but be as powerful as the uber pvp players because they also get an additional CL20-30 pet.
That is exactly what I am telling you is wrong and will never fly with the devs.
Icarus-6 wrote:
Guys, if you want to disagree with Dakar about his idea of the points being 'spent already' then go ahead and do so. I can see his side of the argument and I can see yours.
Don't go around flaming him for not reading the proposal, however. He has. He is commenting on it. He's saying he disagrees. In fact your continued posts about how he hasn't makes it look more like you aren't reading his than he isn't reading yours.
If you want to disagree, disagree. That's what these forums are for, but knock off the flaming. Go back a few pages when people are putting out minor points to tweak here and there and everyone is for constructive dialogue even if it disagrees with the proposal. However once someone starts to go too far out and say they don't think the proposal will work then its 'forget that' and 'bring on the barbeque'. It's pretty hypocritical.
Drakar, you should settle down as well. Flaming back isn't going to help things at all and it's going to kill any perception of validity your points might have.
And for the record, I'm not going to talk about if his point is valid or not. I'm not going to talk about his post in another thread. I'm saying that it's been claimed that this is a thread for discussion about Sodan's proposal. Discussion means you hear both sides of an issue. If you don't want that then someone should probably write 'Please only include posts that agree with us'.
I agree with this whole heartedly. The difference between Daker's posts and the others is important. First of all, he was the ONLY poster to ignore the no discussion rule. Bad form all around.
Second of all, he has been rude and dismissive "I blew off sodan's thread until the vote thread" or something like that. He also kicked off the tone by calling Virt a jerk for pointing out the forum rukles
Third, he has used outright LIES to promote his opposition. He said "CH requires two trees" knowing that this proposal required two trees as pre-reqs. He's said a number of other things that are complete mischaracterizations of what the stated andrepeated requirements of the plan are.
Everyone else has disagreed and lodges their substantive comments. We in turn have refuted the arguments respectfully or MODIFIED THE PLAN to account for them. That's constructive. Daker decided to screw it all and not say crap until the plan was formalized, now he's being rude and miscarterizing things.
I have NO PROBLEM with discussing his points when they do not start by lying about what our plan really says.I've yet to see him do so.
This I can agree to. I will meet you halfway and edit my post as well. Reply to substance forthcoming.
Daker-Naritus wrote:
Number 1: I edited my posts 30 minutes ago...stop freaking out.
Number 2: I have preserved the utmost respect for you in all of my posts to you (even though I am telling you I think you are wrong). If you want me to continue to be respectful to you, I would ask you to consider to practice what you are preaching. I have yet to say anything mean-spirited to you, other than that I think the devs will never accept your idea.
Continuing to not read and think about what I am posting, while calling them "distortion and lies" is doing the exact thing you are lecturing me not to.
My argument has no holes, I just tried 3 times to help you see my point, and then gave up. I have laid it out multiple times that CH spend more skill points to get their combat abilities than a person under this plan would. This plan isn't balanced, you just don't want to see it.
duncje wrote:
Daker it is irrelevant if the skillpoints are already spent in their respective trees. The only way to get around this is to implement new, vacant "skill point sink" trees, that grant no abilities or skills.
DING DING DING DING! Tell him what he's won Johnny!!!!
Exactly! This is what I am saying. Put in a mini profession outside of DE...2 trees that give droid handling ability.
This would satisfy everyone except for the greedy wanna-be combat profession DEs who are trying to get free combat ability inserted into the DE tree so they can fight without paying any extra skill points for it.
Besides, you have yet to offer a rebuttal to any of the gaping holes in your argument. Must mean you don't have one, which means your original argument is invalid.
Daker-Naritus wrote:
Now, as to the substance: Bottom line...the ONLY "extra" skill points your plan involves are the 4 boxes in DE. All of your other requirements are skill boxes from other trees, that inherently give you extra combat ability.
Arguing this is like saying Scout give you extra creature harvesting ability, or extra terrain negotiation ability. You will get extra abilities from any of the novice trees, that's the way the game is set up.
For these 4 boxes, you are getting thes samepet ability as a CH who masters 8 boxes of CH. Ignoring all prerequisites, this isn't even in the ballpark of balanced.
Add up the skill points. It would take a minimum of 78 skill points to be able to control droids that are less powerful than the CL 36 pets you can control at 0044 of CH, which costs 77 skill points. If anything, it is unbalanced to the DE side. It is more than fair to all involved.
Now lets look at prerequisites. You are saying that taking up novice marksman (combat ability) and the ranged tree (combat ability) and the artisan tree (non-combat ability), is equivalent to taking up novice scout (non-combat) and 2 scout trees (both non-combat). I am saying that this too is wrong. From marksman, a profession that most people pick up anyway, you are getting a bunch of combat ability above and beyone the droid handling ability you get.
What abilities you get in the novice skill boxes is not relevant to this argument, as any box from any novice profession grants additional abilities or skills, with very few exceptions. And as to "a profession that most people take up anyway"... you're confusing the way you play the game with others. Not everybody plays the same way.
I STILL think the best solution is a mini-profession. It isn't going to take any longer to code than your changes, and it solves all problems both your concerns and mine.
It will take far longer to code a mini-profession. Most of the work for this proposal was already in progress, with a DC profession. It would take far less coding to add this work to an existing profession than it would be to code something that doesn't even exist in this game (mini-profession) and balance it out.
Kollos wrote:
FWIW, this isn't a bad proposal on its own merits. It's "bad" in the sense that it is a hybrid DE proposal, but as hybrid DE proposals go it's okay. The main sticking pointI think you're going to run into is that you're adding pre-requisites to an existing profession. I just don't see them allowing that because it would screw around with so many existing characters.
Another potential problem (from the Devs' point of view) is that, once again, you're adding new abilities to a profession (DE) without any cost. Yes, there's a cost built in for the new dabblers who pick up DE in order to get the new combat droids, but where's the cost for existing Droid Engineers? You're giving us a freebie, and I doubt the devs will go for that either.
/sigh
Kollos, did you read the initail posting and the variants?
Both of those things are covered. In a way, this is basicly the same thing as a mini-profession, it just has overlapping prerequisites.
If you take the additional certs activated with Ranged Support (or whatever other ADDITIONAL prerequisite) and put them in their own skill tree, nothing would change. Just picture it as a fifth tree super-imposed over an existing one - it only is "activated" when you get the ADDITIONAL prerequisites.
This is *NOT* changing anyone's character as-is. If this was implemented as it's written here, on patch day we would all be Crafting DE"s if we already were - that wouldn't change.
It's not a freebie. Unless they add a new novice profession, this is exactly how a mini-tree or even a full-on Droid Handler would work. Pre-reqs would be gathered from existing professions.
It's fine to not like the idea, but the people that have so far seem to just not understand it. It truly addresses the concerns that everyone has shown - for crafters to remain crafters, for people who want to pick up just Droid Handling, or people who want to do both.
It gives a great deal of choice to dealing with Droids - Is that what people are afraid of? That they can have their cake, someone else can have their different cake, and everyone gets something that they want? Or do you just want YOUR cake, and no one else should have any cake unless it's the one you want?
That's again, beside the point - it seems that with the reasons given for dissention each person who has disagreed simply hasn't fully understood what is being proposed before speaking out against it.
Audio
Daker-Naritus wrote:
Now, as to the substance: Bottom line...the ONLY "extra" skill points your plan involves are the 4 boxes in DE. All of your other requirements are skill boxes from other trees, that inherently give you extra combat ability.
For these 4 boxes, you are getting thes samepet ability as a CH who masters 8 boxes of CH. Ignoring all prerequisites, this isn't even in the ballpark of balanced.
The skillpoint cost is what matters, Daker, and the skillpoint cost is equal. What is your answer to that.
Addiitionally, the "one-tree" aspect of this proposal is a feature not a problem. It promotes dabbling which is good for the reasons set forth therein.
Now lets look at prerequisites. You are saying that taking up novice marksman (combat ability) and the ranged tree (combat ability) and the artisan tree (non-combat ability), is equivalent to taking up novice scout (non-combat) and 2 scout trees (both non-combat). I am saying that this too is wrong. From marksman, a profession that most people pick up anyway, you are getting a bunch of combat ability above and beyone the droid handling ability you get.
Lets agree to disagree then. I think its really cool that this plan calls for a mix of combat and crafter skills to get access to combat droids. It makes sense from a roleplaying perspective and, after all, it is the HYBRID DE plan.
I STILL think the best solution is a mini-profession. It isn't going to take any longer to code than your changes, and it solves all problems both your concerns and mine.
I disagree butI respect that you think otherwise.
Kollos wrote:
Shian_Tavkin wrote:
Gratz Jenden
Now...where is that scallywag Wookiee?
The scallywag Wookiee was taking a break over the weekend.
I'm sure you'll all be thrilled to hear that I am about to start a new job and probably won't have time for SWG anymore, or at best I will only have a small amount of time. So since I won't be able to play much, if at all, it wouldn't be right for me to campaign one way or another.
FWIW, this isn't a bad proposal on its own merits. It's "bad" in the sense that it is a hybrid DE proposal, but as hybrid DE proposals go it's okay. The main sticking pointI think you're going to run into is that you're adding pre-requisites to an existing profession. I just don't see them allowing that because it would screw around with so many existing characters.
Another potential problem (from the Devs' point of view) is that, once again, you're adding new abilities to a profession (DE) without any cost. Yes, there's a cost built in for the new dabblers who pick up DE in order to get the new combat droids, but where's the cost for existing Droid Engineers? You're giving us a freebie, and I doubt the devs will go for that either.
I really think the best all-around compromise has always been the mini-profession idea. No freebies for anyone. Appropriate built-in costs for the new droids for anyone who wants to use them. Allows Droid Engineers who want to be pure crafters to just play DE and ignore the mini-profession, and allows Droid Engineer to remain a full-fledged crafting profession with all of the "perks" that supposedly come with a crafting profession. Allows combat players who have no interest in crafting to just pick up the mini-profession and ignore DE, and allows the new combat droids to be balanced on their own merits without having to take potential crafting abilities into consideration. Allows people who want to do both to pick up both. It's really the best of all possible worlds.
*Sign* *Frame* *Hang on my wall*
I'd feel better if Drashk would sign and agree to the proposal. 
Where's he been, anyway?
Daker-Naritus wrote:
My argument has no holes, I just tried 3 times to help you see my point, and then gave up. I have laid it out multiple times that CH spend more skill points to get their combat abilities than a person under this plan would. This plan isn't balanced, you just don't want to see it.
duncje wrote:
Daker it is irrelevant if the skillpoints are already spent in their respective trees. The only way to get around this is to implement new, vacant "skill point sink" trees, that grant no abilities or skills.
DING DING DING DING! Tell him what he's won Johnny!!!!
Exactly! This is what I am saying. Put in a mini profession outside of DE...2 trees that give droid handling ability.
This would satisfy everyone except for the greedy wanna-be combat profession DEs who are trying to get free combat ability inserted into the DE tree so they can fight without paying any extra skill points for it.
Besides, you have yet to offer a rebuttal to any of the gaping holes in your argument. Must mean you don't have one, which means your original argument is invalid.
First of all, the numbers come out as having someone spend one skillpoint more than a CH for the same CL. But one other major factor is this. We're not only trying to to Determine what would be the best system, but which is the best system that the Devs are likely to implement. This system has been checked for balance and is in the same structure as one of the original Dev ideas. You haven't provided any plans more substancal than "put a seperate mini-tree in", which is something the Devs have said the are sceptical about.
If you want to convince people, go and do some work on your mini tree idea so that it's balanced and you believe thatthe Devswould implement it, then people will listen to you. otherwise stop taking potshots at what is the most promising plan on the table right now
Daker-Naritus wrote:
duncje wrote:
Daker it is irrelevant if the skillpoints are already spent in their respective trees. The only way to get around this is to implement new, vacant "skill point sink" trees, that grant no abilities or skills.
DING DING DING DING! Tell him what he's won Johnny!!!!
Exactly! This is what I am saying. Put in a mini profession outside of DE...2 trees that give droid handling ability.
I said you'd have to add vacant skill boxes that grant no abilities or skills, did you even read the post? Do I need to type slower?
This would satisfy everyone except for the greedy wanna-be combat profession DEs who are trying to get free combat ability inserted into the DE tree so they can fight without paying any extra skill points for it.
DE's just want a place in this game, something we don't currently have, and something that's not coming with what we've seen of the proposed "Droid Invaision". Are we wrong to ask for a niche in this game? Something that all the other professions have?
Besides, you have yet to offer a rebuttal to any of the gaping holes in your argument. Must mean you don't have one, which means your original argument is invalid.
My argument has no holes, I just tried 3 times to help you see my point, and then gave up. I have laid it out multiple times that CH spend more skill points to get their combat abilities than a person under this plan would. This plan isn't balanced, you just don't want to see it.
There are holes in your argument:
- "No additional skill point cost."--You have to have used the skill points in Ranged Support 4 to be able to handle the combat droids. That's skill points that HAVE to be spend in Ranged Support, and that you wouldn't have to use elsewhere.
- "It's not balanced."--It costs one more skill point (78 to 77) to get the CL30ish combat droids in this proposal, than it costs to be able to control CL 36 pets. That's balance. You want to add a separate mini profession that would be far tougher to balance, and where would you put it?
Kollos wrote:
Shian_Tavkin wrote:
Gratz Jenden
Now...where is that scallywag Wookiee?
The scallywag Wookiee was taking a break over the weekend.
I'm sure you'll all be thrilled to hear that I am about to start a new job and probably won't have time for SWG anymore, or at best I will only have a small amount of time. So since I won't be able to play much, if at all, it wouldn't be right for me to campaign one way or another.
Gratz on the new job, man. Sorry it will cut down on SWG time. I've been feeling the pinch at work too.
FWIW, this isn't a bad proposal on its own merits. It's "bad" in the sense that it is a hybrid DE proposal, but as hybrid DE proposals go it's okay. The main sticking pointI think you're going to run into is that you're adding pre-requisites to an existing profession. I just don't see them allowing that because it would screw around with so many existing characters.
Ok, this argument has been addressed. There is NO additional pre-req to the DE profession. The additional pre-req is for the USE of combat droids. A player could craft their way to MDE as they always have been able to under this plan. They cannot USE the combat droids until they spend the extra points on Ranged Support 4.
Another potential problem (from the Devs' point of view) is that, once again, you're adding new abilities to a profession (DE) without any cost. Yes, there's a cost built in for the new dabblers who pick up DE in order to get the new combat droids, but where's the cost for existing Droid Engineers? You're giving us a freebie, and I doubt the devs will go for that either.
Ranged Support 4 requires 30k in combat exp. Combat exp is only a tenths of regular exp like pistol exp. So if you make 400 pistol exp shooting a mob, you only make 4 combat exp. There is the additional cost.
Also, unlike a 0044 CH, a 0040 DE cannot tame/make their own droids. Any bonus that DEs get under this plan is offset by the combat exp they need to get AND under the totatility of the circumstances.
I'll note that these two objections are "devs won't do it" objections.
I really think the best all-around compromise has always been the mini-profession idea. No freebies for anyone. Appropriate built-in costs for the new droids for anyone who wants to use them. Allows Droid Engineers who want to be pure crafters to just play DE and ignore the mini-profession, and allows Droid Engineer to remain a full-fledged crafting profession with all of the "perks" that supposedly come with a crafting profession. Allows combat players who have no interest in crafting to just pick up the mini-profession and ignore DE, and allows the new combat droids to be balanced on their own merits without having to take potential crafting abilities into consideration. Allows people who want to do both to pick up both. It's really the best of all possible worlds.
I like this plan better. And it avoids additional professions. There are already too many. We should fix this one, rather than make new ones.
Arcid wrote:
If you want to convince people, go and do some work on your mini tree idea so that it's balanced and you believe thatthe Devswould implement it, then people will listen to you. otherwise stop taking potshots at what is the most promising plan on the table right now