Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Does a DE need to be a Master Artisan?
Erlkoenig wrote:
Actually, Armorsmiths are not only dependent on another Artisan ... but they need a Tailor. Even to craft Mabari Armorweave (which Armorsmiths get at Novice Armorsmith) you need factory crates of Synth Cloth. So not only do you need a Tailor ... but a Tailor that has access to a factory. Armorsmiths also need Hide, which can only be supplied by scouts.
So even to create the most basic of armors, an Armorsmith is dependent on two different classes, one of which is an elite class. Whereas DEs (once again to make the most basic of droids) need the ability to survey ... which they most likely already have.
Relax ... it could be worse than needing Master Artisan ...
It's still nowhere near the same.
That's ONE type of armor, and ONE item.
We need Master Artisan parts for virtually EVERY droid we make past Blueprints I, and LOTS of them, and FOUR different kinds.
And buying a resource from a profession that most everyone has is certainly not the same at all as requiring the huge amount of parts we need from a master of another profession.
So no, I can't see it being much worse. I'm glad you are satisified, but this is the worst part of the DE profession for some of us.
Audio
AudioOrgana wrote:
David665 wrote:
Well, why worry about it? I can get 7000 GCXp crafting micro flora farms on practice mode in 5 minutes at 446 gcxp a pop, so it aint much of a grind as opposed to when I first hit master artisan and DE using bone armour or travel packs at 110 gcxp a pop.
Um...it's a little thing called SKILL POINTS.
The grind is nothing, it's the fact that to be a Master Artisan you have to spend so many skill points. I don't need Dom Arts, Business, or Survey. I don't make clothes, I don't use a vendor anymore, I never sample, and four skill boxes isn't worth increased survey range.
Again, for people that are only artisans it's not a big deal - but try to be ANY combat profession, and with the prerequisites in a totally different novice profession it's very limiting.
I don'tunderstand how people can't see that we are easily the most dependent on other professions many times over, much less be satisified with it. I've been a Master DE for more than three months - and I've not only done the math but experienced it first hand. Give the profession a few months, and when you realize you don't want to spend all your time making droids, and try to branch out, you'll see the issue. If you don't, good for you - I guess you are better DE's than I am.
Audio
Well said. That is exactly what drove me to write this post. Having to add Master Architect will force me to drop all but 3 combat skill boxes. And because I refuse to walk around without a gun, I won't be able to add as many merchant boxes as I would have before.
That I have been told, the Armorsmith reliance on Tailors and Scouts is not limited to just Mabari armor. Any dependence on another profession you do not have easy/any access to is a showstopper. I started with Armorsmith before DE, and as soon as I hit the Novice and saw the need for Tailoring (which was heading me in the opposite direction from where I wanted to go), I bailed quickly. Besides the fact that it meant I had to have tailoring (which is somewhere I did not want to go), it meant I had less points for Armorsmith and DE (which is where I wanted to go originally) and back in the beginning of the game, there were virtually zero tailors about, so I was hosed. As simple a requirement as Synthcloth was (for tailors), it was a complete showstopper for me, which is the point I am trying to make. It's hard to say that DE/MA dependence is better/worse than AS/T dependence because it's not a single-dimensional issue.
What I have noticed is that pretty much ALL the artisan-based professions have some level of interdependence on each other--some optional, some mandatory. In the case of DEs, the requirements of MA are mandatory for most droids (EGPM, EMM). The dependence on Architectis zero, unless you plan to build a Power Droid. If you never build a Power Droid, then you don't EVER need an Architect. If you do build one, you'll need an architect (or be one yourself) to get the Power Core Unit.
Architects need DEs for their Droid Storage Compartments, and MAs for their Control units. Armorsmiths need Tailors and Scouts, not sure about weaponsmiths, but I am sure there is something there that is dependent on another artisan class.
Again, this design is intentional--SOE wanted us to HAVE to interact with and work with each other to accomplish/achieve the higher echelons of our desired professions and products. One could argue that A has fewer dependencies than B, but I could probably counter that easily enough: it all depends on what you *WANT* to build/create.
Marc_Deltram wrote:
Again, this design is intentional--SOE wanted us to HAVE to interact with and work with each other to accomplish/achieve the higher echelons of our desired professions and products. One could argue that A has fewer dependencies than B, but I could probably counter that easily enough: it all depends on what you *WANT* to build/create.
Your signature says it all.
The theory of interdependency was great, in practice, it's not the utopian concept it is intended to be.
It's not an argument, but simple fact - we are simply the most dependent on another class several times over.
I have no problem buying power cores from architects, and I wouldn't have a problem even if all of our droids needed simply control units, or just the chips. But it's four items that we need in large quantities.
I'm not sure what you mean by your last statement - but I want to build droids, broken as they are, and the Devs shouldn't be making one of the most broken professions even more reliant than anyone else on another profession. If you are saying I should do another profession if I don't like it - well, it's either DE or no SWG for me.
I was a big fan of interdependency in beta, when we were getting wiped every few weeks and didn't notice it's long term viablility. People talk about it like it's the second coming of the Force, but all it is really is an excuse. It's not all it's cracked up to be.
Audio
Well, I would agree and disagree. As I said before, I am not convinced that we (being DEs that I am referring to with that royal "we" there) are *THE* most dependent class/profession. I would certainly not argue that we are the least dependent and I would be kidding myself if I believed that we are totally independent (meaning I only wanted to create mouse droids). But the most dependent? I'm just not convinced of that.
In the strictest and worst possible case, we are dependent on three other professions/classes tops: Master Artisan, Architect, and Armorsmith. Master Artisan makes a number of components we need (EMM, EGP, Micro Sensor Suite, Control Unit, just to name a bunch), Architect makes ONE part for ONE type of droid (Power Droid, both versions: Standard and Advanced, the part being the aforementioned Power Core Unit), and Armorsmith makes one component for L5 and L6 armor (the Composite Armor Segment used for L5 and L6 Armor). That's it. Three other professions. No more, no less.
As far as my last statement is concerned (which really reiterated the point I just made above), allI was saying is that the "level of profession interdependency" has everything to do with what you want to build. As an example, I give you the Power Droid. If you want to build one, you need something from an Architect. So that is a dependency--hard and fast. No way to get around it. However, if you NEVER want to build a power droid (ok, so you built one once just to say you did it, but that was it), then you have ZERO dependency on Architects. Scratch two droids off the list. (How often do you sell them anyway?) So that cuts the DE profession interdependency ratio by 33% right there. If you can do without L6 armor and instead stick with dual L4 armor (yes, some droids only have one armor slot, but for the majority of popular droids customers are asking for, there are two armor slots), you've just eliminated another 33% of interdependency.
I am in NO way perscribing that you or anyone else NOT build droids or not be a DE or any such thing. In fact, the whole "stop building droids until the devs fix us" sentiment really frosts my shorts. I enjoy the DE profession myself very much, broken as it is. When I first heard that Verant (now SOE) got the contract to create a StarWars-based MMOG years ago, I knew there would be a way to build droids and I looked forward to it way back then. What I am saying is that the viewpoint of "woe is us...we're too dependent...we suck" (and please understand that I am not attributing that sentiment to anyone in specific) is, in my mind, just not so. Maybe this is just a "glass half full" way of looking at it, but I'll stick to it. 
It took SOE 3+ years (some would argue even more than that) to get EQ to the point where I would consider the game "not broken". (My point of view.) I expect nothing less here, and so far they've come father faster with SWG than they ever did with EQ. I think all their social experiments (no NPC vendors, reusable/returnable skills/skill trees, profession interdependence) have worked reasonably well, when compared against other MMOGs currently out there. Are they perfect yet? No kinda way, but they are far ahead of what came before. Did I think they were working when the game launched? No. But now that I've had some time to grow into the professions and find my place in the world and it's economy, I can say with all honesty that it is anywhere from moderately to alot better than EQ, UO, DAOC, SB, etc.
Marc-
I'm not going to try to debunk your argument, because it's a good one. But you're getting away from the scope of the original post. "Does a DE need to be a Master Artisan?" Artisan, not Armorsmith, or Architect or (whatever other profession). Granted there is a lot of interdependance, but NO OTHER class depends on MA partsto the extent thatDE's do.
And no, it's not necessary to be a MA, but on Radiant, at least, MA parts are very hard to come by. You'd be lucky to find a few here and there on the Bazaar or on PC Vendors. Not nearly enough to support a DE, unless you want to makeone droid every week or two.
True, Duncje, which is something I tried to address in my first posting. In so many words (and yes, I do use so many words...it suits me when I'm on the road on a laptop that could not run StarWars Galaxies to save it's life) I basically said that it depends on how you view the "dependency" issue. If you're highly sensitive to it (or allergic to it, as some people seem to be) then you need it. If you can cope with what it is, or can deal with the realities of what is or is not available on your planet or your server, then it's a choice. I guess the meta message I was trying to convey is that it's not a simple yes or no question, therefore not a simple yes or no answer. Everyone will have a slightly to very different perspective and take on both the question and their corresponding answer.
Which is probably why the thread was started in the first place...to see what the various perspectives and answers were to that question.
So in light of that, I would say that, IMHO yes DEs should be MAs since that is what they rely on most and would give the DE the flexibility to build most anything on demand without having to track down an MA when a surreptitious request for a droid comes up. I would not prescribe tha DE need to be an Architect, and there are probablyt not enough points in a given character for a DE to achieve what they need in Tailoring and Armorsmith toget those composite armor segments.
Which poses an interesting sub question: Could an UberDE of just enough Architect, Tailor, Armorsmith, and MasterArtisan exist and still afford points to be Master DE? I've never researched that question before. Maybe someone should. If it is possible (doubtful), they would be probably be entirely useless for anything else (like holding a weapon). Just my thoughts off the top of my head. Not certain of that being the case.
Marc_Deltram wrote:
Well, I would agree and disagree. As I said before, I am not convinced that we (being DEs that I am referring to with that royal "we" there) are *THE* most dependent class/profession. I would certainly not argue that we are the least dependent and I would be kidding myself if I believed that we are totally independent (meaning I only wanted to create mouse droids). But the most dependent? I'm just not convinced of that.
In the strictest and worst possible case, we are dependent on three other professions/classes tops: Master Artisan, Architect, and Armorsmith. Master Artisan makes a number of components we need (EMM, EGP, Micro Sensor Suite, Control Unit, just to name a bunch), Architect makes ONE part for ONE type of droid (Power Droid, both versions: Standard and Advanced, the part being the aforementioned Power Core Unit), and Armorsmith makes one component for L5 and L6 armor (the Composite Armor Segment used for L5 and L6 Armor). That's it. Three other professions. No more, no less.
As far as my last statement is concerned (which really reiterated the point I just made above), allI was saying is that the "level of profession interdependency" has everything to do with what you want to build. As an example, I give you the Power Droid. If you want to build one, you need something from an Architect. So that is a dependency--hard and fast. No way to get around it. However, if you NEVER want to build a power droid (ok, so you built one once just to say you did it, but that was it), then you have ZERO dependency on Architects. Scratch two droids off the list. (How often do you sell them anyway?) So that cuts the DE profession interdependency ratio by 33% right there. If you can do without L6 armor and instead stick with dual L4 armor (yes, some droids only have one armor slot, but for the majority of popular droids customers are asking for, there are two armor slots), you've just eliminated another 33% of interdependency.
Marc, your figures just don't add up.
I don't care about power cores or composite segments - that's fine by me. You are right.
How can you be a Master DE and not at least see the facts clearly? Have you ever made an advanced droid brain? EIGHT parts right there.
Saying that not making Power Droids and not using level 6 armor (which is useless anyway since it's capped at level 4) reduces our dependency 66% is just...wrong. It's not about our reliance on multiple professions, is the huge reliance on one profession.
It doesn't matter which profession it comes from. It's the fact that our droids require HUGE numbers of MASTER ARTISAN parts.
I'm all for the minor interdependency - the power cores and such. It's the TOTAL dependency we have on ONE profession that bothers me.
The problem is that four parts that we go through in large numbers are under the Master Artisan box.
You may not agree that it's wrong, but I don't know how you can deny this. Again, I don't know how you are a Master DE if you can't see this. Numerically, our products require more items from other professions, ora profession, and that's the issue.
It's not the amount of professions, it's the amount of items. If being a Master DE doesn't "convince" you of that, you haven't looked at other Artisan's requirements, or you only make mice and R5's with low level modules. If those things don't convince you, nothing will.
Audio
Marc,
Yes, it's rather easy to be a totally independent Master Droid Engineer:
63points for Master Droid Engineer
77points for Master Artisan
15 points for Architect + 2 levels of Furniture (to get the Power Core Unit)
I don't know how much of Tailor you actually need, but that leaves 95 points which is enough to get Master Tailor and still have some weapon skills.
I'm fairly independent, but that's because I sucked it up and got Master Artisan. I really don't believe that it is practical to be a Master Droid Engineer unless you also have MA. There are just too many MA components required in far too great of numbers. Architect and Tailor we can do without, but not MA.
I am finding it hard to keep that up, though. Apparently most Master Artisans don't have economic sense, otherwise I'd be finding vendors loaded with droid parts I could buy. So many vendors are loaded with more of the same common junk. I'll visit five vendors and the contents will be indistinguishable from each other. Come on, let's get a real economy going.
I may become a Master Artisan so I can make a killing selling the parts every droid engineer needs...
As for the rest of it...well, I'm just hunkered down waiting for combat droids to be added. Who cares about fighting professions if you can have two droidekas?