Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Sodan's Hybrid DE Proposal
Daker-Naritus wrote:
Let me say this...there are no extra skill points spent. Any artisan with the engineering tree is not spending those skill points to get to the handling tree.
Depending on which variation you use, you have to spend extra skill points in a combat profession, ranged support 4, or Master Artisan. That costs more skill points than it takes to make DE, which is simply Eng. 4. 2 trees>1 tree. Is this thathard for you to understand?
Any master DE is not spending anything extra. Anyone with a gun already have thge ranged support tree. All of the things you suggest include thing that players already do...everything suggested is not "extra" to someone.
You assume too much here. I have a gun, my trusty Republic Blaster, and pistols 4, and I don't have ranged support 4. A lot of people don't. Don't confuse the way you play the game with the way the game is played by all.
The other big flaw is that it comes no where near the skill point investment CHs make for the same power. DE requires one prerequisitetree(engineering) CH requires 2 (2 scout trees). There would be one DE handling tree giving you level 36 pets, whereas CH has to master 2 skill trees to get the same pets. The devs will never go for it, and that is EXACTLY the reason TH spread droid handling over the whole DE profession in the first place.
Yeah, but you could use those Scout trees to take up Ranger, or BH... This is basically your argument turned against you. This proposal takes a minimum of 2 trees to be able to start spending skill points in handling droids. Pretty much the same for CH.
I still maintain that a Droid mini-profession with 2 side skill-trees is the best solution, and that this would cause undue invasion into the DE profession.
This is too hard to code and doesn't follow the existing profession precedents. It would take another year to even start to get this into the game, and balancing it is an entirely different story.
If even 1 in 20 of the people who pick up the handler tree dabble further into DE, the market will be flooded and ruined for the rest of us. I can't accept that risk...
That's also 19 more people to sell to. If the market gets bigger for combat droids (by whatever proposal), you're going to see an influx into the profession anyway. Maybe that's what you want? No added market, and no added competition?
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
Under this proposal, you spend 78 points to get +25-35 combat lvls (depending on final balance issues like armor that are still in flux. If you spend 77 skillpoints to get 0044 CH, you get +36 pet lvls. What's the problem?
Daker-Naritus wrote:
With CH, you are spending skill points for ONLY ONE THING: Creature handling ability.
Your argument is flawed. The Scout skillpoints can be used for other things as well. Just as Eng 4 can be used to Armorsmith or Architect, the scout trees can be used for Ranger, or BE, or BH. You act as if those scout trees, and novice scout, ONLY lead to CH. He's taking the entire skill point cost into account.
Message Edited by duncje on 03-08-2004 11:41 AM
Skills points are being spent.
Either MDE's are spending points to acquire a combat line,ranged support for 29 points
Or Combatants are spending points to acquire the DE line, 49 points
either way, the equivalent skill points are being spent to what a CH spends for the exact same level of pet. So if this plan is unbalanced, the current in-game CH system is imbalanced.
Some MDE's may have ranged support, but so what? They are still spending the appopriate number of skill points. Im fairly certain most combatants (a group far larger) dont already posses the artisan/DE skills, and thats where it really matters. Furthermore, the skills gained, unlike CH, are totally useless to a combatant.
And nowhere did the devs say the Mini-Profession would ever be implemented. The only thing they've said is they're not going to do it. Which makes sense since it would be a lot of new code (something they are greatly against doing) and it would only beuseful for 1 thing, droids. If it was within their scope, dont you think they would of chosen to do so now, where the max available resources for droids are in use?
As for the market flooding. Not going to happen with 0040. As already pointed out, at least 0444 is needed, and even then, the droid wont be as good as a master. If the devs planned it right, they could place the schematics in such a way as to require 4444, or rather MDE. But even assuming they dont.Why would someone spend the time, and the credits to get to 444 (which is and additional 28 skill points, which an uber combat type would have to DROP combat skills to get) when it would be just cheaper for them to buy a droid. Rare spawned resources is a huge barrier of entry. Schematics are useless without resources. Top that with needing factories and the complexity of droids and its totally not worth it. Money is cheap, and requires no effort. Grinding additional DE trees, waiting a few days to make factory parts, dropping and retaking original profession is a lot of effort, and the droid is far from being "the best".
Again, if they choose to work to MDE. At that point they've earned the right to make droids, and they should be welcomed to the club. Part of your posts makes it sound like your biggest fear is there will be more DE's in the game, that is not a valid argument.
As for being one-starred, happens to everyone. You have no idea who is doing it and to use it for an excuse for a tyrade is irrational at best.
Finally, this isnt the best plan. But its the best plan we have, and it truly addresses MANY, if not all concerns. It doesnt make everyone happy, but it doesnt leave everyone pissed off either, which in itself is amazing. One could even call it a compromise. 100x better than whats on the table for 7 & 8.
Daker-Naritus wrote:
Daker, it was really bad form of you to post discussion in the voting thread. Everyone has been really constructive until now. As you can see, the debate continues. Its not to late for you to edit your message. Audio and I can edit our replies too. I found you calling Audio a jerk very ironic.
Let me start with this. I meant no offense to you Audio. I was pissed off already as I ready through the thread, because I noticed that people were one-starring all the disagrees. That is one of my hugest pet-peeves.
I posted my disagree, but added a quick thought. I didn't intend it to be mean or to cause problems, I was just telling you why I disagreed. I didn't think it was that big of a deal.
Then Vir comes in and "ahems" me, and again a disagree is one starred. I was really offended, because if your thread wasn't going to be fair to everyone who posts, there is no reason for anyone to post.
I will edit my posts when everyone stops attacking people with dissenting opinions.
p.s. I would NEVER call Audio a jerk...
You're wrong about this and let me tell you why.
This proposal balances the amount of pet lvls you get for the amount of skill points you spend only until you reach 0040 DE. After that, the only bonus is in MDE -- and that's only under one variant. Thus, the extra points people will spend beyond 0040 DE are not going get them the same amount of pet lvls. This fact means several things: 1) true combat dabblers will not go for it, becuase they could get real combat pay off bonuses in other professions. 2) This is not a CH/BE clone. CHs get a steady increase in pet lvls as they progress. This plan cuts off the pet lvls after 0040 DE. Unless people WANT to craft droids, they will not be progressing to MDE. And if they WANT to craft droids, they're full blown DEs and they should be WELCOMED into the club, not shunned -- no need to lament DEs crafting great droids.
Additionally, "incumbant" DEs have the advantage of 1) havinggathered the rare resources needed to be an EFFECTIVE DE like lidium extrusive ore, 2) the new crafting nerf makes it so that MDEs and MDEs with +25 Droid Expermentation tapes are at a significant advantage.
Let me say this...there are no extra skill points spent. Any artisan with the engineering tree is not spending those skill points to get to the handling tree. Any master DE is not spending anything extra. Anyone with a gun already have thge ranged support tree. All of the things you suggest include thing that players already do...everything suggested is not "extra" to someone.
The other big flaw is that it comes no where near the skill point investment CHs make for the same power. DE requires one prerequisitetree(engineering) CH requires 2 (2 scout trees). There would be one DE handling tree giving you level 36 pets, whereas CH has to master 2 skill trees to get the same pets. The devs will never go for it, and that is EXACTLY the reason TH spread droid handling over the whole DE profession in the first place.
I still maintain that a Droid mini-profession with 2 side skill-trees is the best solution, and that this would cause undue invasion into the DE profession.
If even 1 in 20 of the people who pick up the handler tree dabble further into DE, the market will be flooded and ruined for the rest of us. I can't accept that risk...
Shian_Tavkin wrote:
The skillpoints in Eng4 are NOT owned already (in general) by the Combat specialists (and thats where balance matters)
BS!!! You are talking to a Commando/MDE who is friends with a Rifleman/Master Armorsmith, Fencer/Pistoleer/Weaponsmith, Rifleman/Chef, and a Commando/Architect (I could go on, but I will spare you).
Almost every crafter I know has at least one elite combat profession.
Daker-Naritus wrote:
I will edit my posts when everyone stops attacking people with dissenting opinions.
p.s. I would NEVER call Audio a jerk...
Edit your messages now, man, And we will too. No need to call ANYBODY a jerk. I don't want one-stars on the vote thread because then we can' count the votes properly.
Daker-Naritus wrote:
Let me say this...there are no extra skill points spent. Any artisan with the engineering tree is not spending those skill points to get to the handling tree. Any master DE is not spending anything extra. Anyone with a gun already have thge ranged support tree. All of the things you suggest include thing that players already do...everything suggested is not "extra" to someone.
The other big flaw is that it comes no where near the skill point investment CHs make for the same power. DE requires one prerequisitetree(engineering) CH requires 2 (2 scout trees). There would be one DE handling tree giving you level 36 pets, whereas CH has to master 2 skill trees to get the same pets. The devs will never go for it, and that is EXACTLY the reason TH spread droid handling over the whole DE profession in the first place.
Again, pure distortion and lies. I'm serious: distortion and lies.
First of all, this proposal also calls for two pre-req trees for combat droid use: Engineering 4 and Ragne Support 4. Second of all, your focus on skill trees is immaterial. The real impact is on how many skill points are spent. Here, the skillpoints needed to be spent for 25-35 lvl are equal. Indeed, we are actually proposing LESS pet lvls for MORE skill points. Indeed, the brialliance of this plan is that it puts all the certs into one DE tree and thereby creates a market for sale to dabblers. Under this proposal, DE will make WAY more money sellign expensive combat droids to uber-leet combat template creators (who will get no more points than they would have by dabbling in CH).
Finally, just because there is some overlap of pre-requisites does not matter. Engineering 4 is a pre-req for DE, Weaponsmith, and Armorsmith. Just because one profession relies on one tree for a pre-req does not diminish its importance as a pre-req for other professions.
Said another way, this is not a "certs for free for everybody" plan. DEs will have to spend time/points getting hard to get Combat Exp in 0004 Marksman, Combat types will have to spend points to get Eng 4 and 0040 DE.
Daker it is irrelevant if the skillpoints are already spent in their respective trees. The only way to get around this is to implement new, vacant "skill point sink" trees, that grant no abilities or skills.
Besides, you have yet to offer a rebuttal to any of the gaping holes in your argument. Must mean you don't have one, which means your original argument is invalid.
Guys, if you want to disagree with Dakar about his idea of the points being 'spent already' then go ahead and do so. I can see his side of the argument and I can see yours.
Don't go around flaming him for not reading the proposal, however. He has. He is commenting on it. He's saying he disagrees. In fact your continued posts about how he hasn't makes it look more like you aren't reading his than he isn't reading yours.
If you want to disagree, disagree. That's what these forums are for, but knock off the flaming. Go back a few pages when people are putting out minor points to tweak here and there and everyone is for constructive dialogue even if it disagrees with the proposal. However once someone starts to go too far out and say they don't think the proposal will work then its 'forget that' and 'bring on the barbeque'. It's pretty hypocritical.
Drakar, you should settle down as well. Flaming back isn't going to help things at all and it's going to kill any perception of validity your points might have.
And for the record, I'm not going to talk about if his point is valid or not. I'm not going to talk about his post in another thread. I'm saying that it's been claimed that this is a thread for discussion about Sodan's proposal. Discussion means you hear both sides of an issue. If you don't want that then someone should probably write 'Please only include posts that agree with us'.
Daker-Naritus wrote:
Shian_Tavkin wrote:
The skillpoints in Eng4 are NOT owned already (in general) by the Combat specialists (and thats where balance matters)
BS!!! You are talking to a Commando/MDE who is friends with a Rifleman/Master Armorsmith, Fencer/Pistoleer/Weaponsmith, Rifleman/Chef, and a Commando/Architect (I could go on, but I will spare you).
Almost every crafter I know has at least one elite combat profession.
Dont BS me Daker, read what I said. Combat Specialists. A Commando is not a combat specialist, nor is a Rifleman etc etc. The PvP templates for the combat specialists do not have a single point free for anything Artisan, they are all min/maxed in a variety of combat professions and you know it.
duncje wrote:
Daker-Naritus wrote:
With CH, you are spending skill points for ONLY ONE THING: Creature handling ability.
Your argument is flawed. The Scout skillpoints can be used for other things as well. Just as Eng 4 can be used to Armorsmith or Architect, the scout trees can be used for Ranger, or BE, or BH. You act as if those scout trees, and novice scout, ONLY lead to CH. He's taking the entire skill point cost into account.
Message Edited by duncje on 03-08-2004 11:41 AM
Exactly. And included in this discusion has been the argument that we are ONLY adding up the pet lvls gained from the same amount of points in CH. But there are OTHER skills mods that CH 0044 grants that we are NOT taking into account: Creature Taming is the big one. A 0040 DE cannot make droids for crap; a 0044 CH can tame LOTS of pets forFREE.
We are being extra conservative with skillpoint costs even though we are getting LESS skill mods than a CH 0044. Indeed, many support 25 droid lvls to account for droid armor thats LESS pet lvls for the skill points.
You argument that the skillpoints are "already" spent is a loser of an argument. Does an MDE who wants to go Armorsmith have to "re-spend" the Engineering 4 skill points? No. Is that less of a pre-req? No. Is the system proposed here identicle to that existing game system? YES.
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
Daker-Naritus wrote:
I will edit my posts when everyone stops attacking people with dissenting opinions.
p.s. I would NEVER call Audio a jerk...
Edit your messages now, man, And we will too. No need to call ANYBODY a jerk. I don't want one-stars on the vote thread because then we can' count the votes properly.
Daker-Naritus wrote:
Let me say this...there are no extra skill points spent. Any artisan with the engineering tree is not spending those skill points to get to the handling tree. Any master DE is not spending anything extra. Anyone with a gun already have thge ranged support tree. All of the things you suggest include thing that players already do...everything suggested is not "extra" to someone.
The other big flaw is that it comes no where near the skill point investment CHs make for the same power. DE requires one prerequisitetree(engineering) CH requires 2 (2 scout trees). There would be one DE handling tree giving you level 36 pets, whereas CH has to master 2 skill trees to get the same pets. The devs will never go for it, and that is EXACTLY the reason TH spread droid handling over the whole DE profession in the first place.
Again, pure distortion and lies. I'm serious: distortion and lies.
First of all, this proposal also calls for two pre-req trees for combat droid use: Engineering 4 and Ragne Support 4. Second of all, your focus on skill trees is immaterial. The real impact is on how many skill points are spent. Here, the skillpoints needed to be spent for 25-35 lvl are equal. Indeed, we are actually proposing LESS pet lvls for MORE skill points. Indeed, the brialliance of this plan is that it puts all the certs into one DE tree and thereby creates a market for sale to dabblers. Under this proposal, DE will make WAY more money sellign expensive combat droids to uber-leet combat template creators (who will get no more points than they would have by dabbling in CH).
Finally, just because there is some overlap of pre-requisites does not matter. Engineering 4 is a pre-req for DE, Weaponsmith, and Armorsmith. Just because one profession relies on one tree for a pre-req does not diminish its importance as a pre-req for other professions.
Said another way, this is not a "certs for free for everybody" plan. DEs will have to spend time/points getting hard to get Combat Exp in 0004 Marksman, Combat types will have to spend points to get Eng 4 and 0040 DE.
Number 1: I edited my posts 30 minutes ago...stop freaking out.
Number 2: I have preserved the utmost respect for you in all of my posts to you (even though I am telling you I think you are wrong). If you want me to continue to be respectful to you, I would ask you to consider to practice what you are preaching. I have yet to say anything mean-spirited to you, other than that I think the devs will never accept your idea.
Continuing to not read and think about what I am posting, while calling them "distortion and lies" is doing the exact thing you are lecturing me not to.
Now, as to the substance: Bottom line...the ONLY "extra" skill points your plan involves are the 4 boxes in DE. All of your other requirements are skill boxes from other trees, that inherently give you extra combat ability.
For these 4 boxes, you are getting thes samepet ability as a CH who masters 8 boxes of CH. Ignoring all prerequisites, this isn't even in the ballpark of balanced.
Now lets look at prerequisites. You are saying that taking up novice marksman (combat ability) and the ranged tree (combat ability) and the artisan tree (non-combat ability), is equivalent to taking up novice scout (non-combat) and 2 scout trees (both non-combat). I am saying that this too is wrong. From marksman, a profession that most people pick up anyway, you are getting a bunch of combat ability above and beyone the droid handling ability you get.
I STILL think the best solution is a mini-profession. It isn't going to take any longer to code than your changes, and it solves all problems both your concerns and mine.
Shian_Tavkin wrote:
Gratz Jenden
Now...where is that scallywag Wookiee?
The scallywag Wookiee was taking a break over the weekend. 
I'm sure you'll all be thrilled to hear that I am about to start a new job and probably won't have time for SWG anymore, or at best I will only have a small amount of time. So since I won't be able to play much, if at all, it wouldn't be right for me to campaign one way or another.
FWIW, this isn't a bad proposal on its own merits. It's "bad" in the sense that it is a hybrid DE proposal, but as hybrid DE proposals go it's okay. The main sticking pointI think you're going to run into is that you're adding pre-requisites to an existing profession. I just don't see them allowing that because it would screw around with so many existing characters.
Another potential problem (from the Devs' point of view) is that, once again, you're adding new abilities to a profession (DE) without any cost. Yes, there's a cost built in for the new dabblers who pick up DE in order to get the new combat droids, but where's the cost for existing Droid Engineers? You're giving us a freebie, and I doubt the devs will go for that either.
I really think the best all-around compromise has always been the mini-profession idea. No freebies for anyone. Appropriate built-in costs for the new droids for anyone who wants to use them. Allows Droid Engineers who want to be pure crafters to just play DE and ignore the mini-profession, and allows Droid Engineer to remain a full-fledged crafting profession with all of the "perks" that supposedly come with a crafting profession. Allows combat players who have no interest in crafting to just pick up the mini-profession and ignore DE, and allows the new combat droids to be balanced on their own merits without having to take potential crafting abilities into consideration. Allows people who want to do both to pick up both. It's really the best of all possible worlds.