Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Sodan's Hybrid DE Proposal
Shian_Tavkin wrote:
1. This proposal does NOT make combat droids only available th DE, thats the whole point.
2. People dabbling in the DE tree just to get the ability to control combat droids will be making nothing because they will not have the schematics or skill to do so. Anyone who takes up more of DE than is required for this proposal is, de-facto, becoming a DE themselves, and as such have the right to make whatever droids they are able to.
As I said above, for 14 more skill points they do get the schematics. This proposal would cause the CH problem all over again...people picking up the handling and taming (cert) tree.
I don't want to be rude Daker, but your post is virtually ignoring the proposal. Please read it again and reconsider. If you do that and still disagree then fine, but all your points are addressed in the proposal.
I'm not ignoring anything...I read the proposal very carefully. All the proposal does it to consolodate all droid handling ability into one DE skill tree (something the devs said they wouldn't do), inside the DE profession (causing people to invade into our profession), and it doesn't help us all that much. All the varients are surplusage...they all incorporate things that players will do anyway. I just think won't work.
It also doesn't change the fact that there is already a superior proposal that has not been shot down...the Droid mini-tree.
Daker-Naritus wrote:
Javac wrote:
With people dabbling in DE they won't be able to build what they can control at all with just a single line, or even anything usable. Some of them may go on to become full-fledged DE's but that's to be expected, new combat droids or not. On my sever, the best equipment always goes for a premium. If it's not the best it better be nearly at cost in order to sell at all!
Yes, some of them will go on and become full fledged DE's, thereby saturating the market...that's exactly my point buddy. Additionally, I think your thought that people will only dabble in DE for the pet tree is wrong...if they can make their own pets for 14 additional skill points, why wouldn't they? Using my example, this is EXACTLY what was happening with CH....people were picking up the handing tree and the taming tree and nothing else.Dabbler CHs were not only picking up only the handlingtree, they were picking up the taming tree as well. This was why CH was nerfed, and the taming and handling abilities spread throughout the profession. What you are suggesting is for people to be able to do exactly the same as CH...to pick up the droid blueprint and handling tree, and to never need a crafter DE again. Don't say it won't happen...it already has (with CH)
Could you point out where the devs 'shot this down'? They shot down the cert idea since it was adding additional abilities to combat classes 'for free'. I don't recall seeing anything where they rejected the idea of implementing some combat droid ability within DE.
I looked for it and couldn't find it. There was a post a couple of weeks ago where TH was again talking about "extra checkers." He was saying that certs wouldn't work. However, he ALSO said that putting certs for droid level in any existing skill tree (including DE) was an extra checker and was impermissible. He said that players will have to spend AT LEAST as many skill points as a CH has to get combat droids. He specifically mentioned a proposal where DEs got combat droid certs put in one of their trees, commenting that there was NO WAY droid levels could be limited to one tree's worth of skill points. TH said they would have to be spread throughout the DE profession (just like CH currently is) for it to be considered.
If you look at TH's original droid proposal, this is exactly what he proposed...droid pet level spread throughout ALL the 4 DE trees. That is the only way DEs are going to be droid certs, and DEs have already shot that down.
By the way, please note that CH has to master 2 skill trees to get pets above CL10, whereas Sodan's proposal has you mastering only one (engineering). There is no way this proposal is going to fly.
Are there any modifications you'd suggesest at all to make it more viable, or are you just against the idea of adding combat droid ability within DE + combat tree? We would be spending extra points to control combat droids with the proposal of requiring something like ranged support IV.
I am against adding any combat ability to the DE tree. If any droid advantage is given to DE, I think it should be accomplished by giving master DEs the ability to call more than one droid (in other words multiple combat droids), rather than encouraging intruders into the DE profession. No one will master DE just to get an additional droid, but DEs would get an advantage nonetheless.
I will also note the following: TH has NEVER, EVER, EVER, said that the DE mini-profession idea wouldn't work...he just said there isn't time to get it into the game by publish 7 or 8.
The mini profession idea is summarized as follows: When a player masters a novice profession or enters an elite or hybrid profession, they (including DEs) get access to a two-tree mini-tree that they can spend skill points within to get droid combat function.
TH has said this idea would probably work, DEs have generally accepted this idea, and this would add high-level combat droids to the game AND give DEs a market by making those droids available to anyone who spends the skill points for them. In my opinion, this is the perfect solution.
Therein lies my frustration. There has already been reached a perfect solution, which tooks weeks of fighting to arrive at.The only hangup of that solution was the inability of devs to implement it by publish 7 or 8. Now that solution has been abandoned, and old ideas are being re-proposed. I think it is a step in the wrong direction...
Message Edited by Shian_Tavkin on 03-08-2004 10:00 AM
Daker-Naritus wrote:
Shian_Tavkin wrote:
1. This proposal does NOT make combat droids only available th DE, thats the whole point.
2. People dabbling in the DE tree just to get the ability to control combat droids will be making nothing because they will not have the schematics or skill to do so. Anyone who takes up more of DE than is required for this proposal is, de-facto, becoming a DE themselves, and as such have the right to make whatever droids they are able to.
As I said above, for 14 more skill points they do get the schematics. This proposal would cause the CH problem all over again...people picking up the handling and taming (cert) tree.
I don't want to be rude Daker, but your post is virtually ignoring the proposal. Please read it again and reconsider. If you do that and still disagree then fine, but all your points are addressed in the proposal.
I'm not ignoring anything...I read the proposal very carefully. All the proposal does it to consolodate all droid handling ability into one DE skill tree (something the devs said they wouldn't do), inside the DE profession (causing people to invade into our profession), and it doesn't help us all that much. All the varients are surplusage...they all incorporate things that players will do anyway. I just think won't work.
Lies don't make good arguments. The proposal calls for combat skills outside the DE skill tree as pre-reqs for cobmat droid usage.
I don't think you read the whole thread man. You're covering old ground here.
Daker-Naritus wrote:
Arcid wrote:
This proposal has been built around the idea that it won't do any good to simply integrate droid control into the current trees, but to modify it so that droid control is isolated from any actual construction ability then it will provide a method for droid control which will be taken by a lot of people, with only a few actually investing more skillpoints to construct droids, thus providing a good market.
So why not have a mini-droid profession that has 2 trees not in the DE professions. Doesn't that accomplish the same thing without violating the DE profession?
Also this idea isn't one of the ones shot down by the devs, indeed it's a modification of one of the original Dev ideas for the dispersion of higher level droids, and it does require an increase in skillpoints in order to use CL10+ droids (An increase of 29 skillpoints either way before you are able to get the combat droids)
Actually, that is wrong... The reason TH proposed the dispersion is that the devs deemed it unreasonable for droid handling ability to be confined to one tree because it gives too mych power for dabbling. That is part of my point. For a more detailed discussion see above.
Also, it DOES NOT include an increase of ANYTHING to use CL10+ droids. You are simply mastering a tree that is already there. DEs don't even have to spend that extra 29 skill points...all masters already have.
Bull crap. SWG's major improvement over EQ is dabbling -- the ability to pick and choose yoru skills. The sky is not falling, Daker, besides in your imagingation. You are totally distorting things.
Under this proposal, you spend 78 points to get +25-35 combat lvls (depending on final balance issues like armor that are still in flux. If you spend 77 skillpoints to get 0044 CH, you get +36 pet lvls. What's the problem?
Shian_Tavkin wrote:
Ok Daker, I asked you nicely to go and read the proposal again.
If you did read it again, then STILL you don't understand it. Skillpoints are being spent in Ranged Support and DE 0040 to get the combat droids. If you dont want them, don't do it. There will BE no flooding of DEs into the profession, because the cost outweighs the benefits for most uber combat types...its as plain as anything. The reason it does NOT invite the CH debacle is that we are not suggesting CL70 droids, or anything close to it.
The reason you can't find where this proposal was shot down...is because such a post does not exist.
All that aside, if you still can't grasp the proposal, and you want to disagree with it, at least have the good grace to go back to the voting thread and edit your answer to 'Disagree' only. What you did in there was just plain out of order.
Message Edited by Shian_Tavkin on 03-08-2004 10:00 AM
Agree.
To everyone reading this thread: Daker is only one person. There is a growing consenus to support this plan. This plan is balanced.
Shian_Tavkin wrote:
Ok Daker, I asked you nicely to go and read the proposal again.
If you did read it again, then STILL you don't understand it. Skillpoints are being spent in Ranged Support and DE 0040 to get the combat droids. If you dont want them, don't do it. There will BE no flooding of DEs into the profession, because the cost outweighs the benefits for most uber combat types...its as plain as anything. The reason it does NOT invite the CH debacle is that we are not suggesting CL70 droids, or anything close to it.
The reason you can't find where this proposal was shot down...is because such a post does not exist.
All that aside, if you still can't grasp the proposal, and you want to disagree with it, at least have the good grace to go back to the voting thread and edit your answer to 'Disagree' only. What you did in there was just plain out of order.
Message Edited by Shian_Tavkin on 03-08-2004 10:00 AM
Agree.
To everyone reading this thread: Daker is only one person. There is a growing consenus to support this plan. This plan is balanced.
Daker-Naritus wrote:
duncje wrote:
Daker, you're really not understanding the proposal.
If someone was "dabbling" in the DE tree to control combat droids, which would be put in the 0040 tree of DE, they would not be able to make droids at all.
And my point is...CH got nerfed because no one stopped at the CH handling tree. People will spend 14 extra skill points to get the cert tree if it means they can cheaply build combat droids.
There are skill points spent to do this. It would require Ranged Support or some other profession to "unlock" the ability to use combat droids. Under this proposal, it would require the same amount of skill points as a CH spends to control CL 36 pets. It is the most balanced proposal I've seen yet.
Who has to spend extra skill points? Almost every person with a gun has the Ranged Support Tree...hell almost all of the elite and hybrid professions already require it (ex: commando, combat medic, BH, etc.) This is not a real requirement, and the devs will never go for it.
To make even halfway decent combat droids, one would have to go at least 0444 in DE. You get the chassis in one tree and the armor modules/combat modules in another tree. That's skillpoints that a lot of people don't have to spare. And it's more than 14 more.
And as for spending extra skill points, we would have to use an existing "skill point sink" that's already in the game. This allows for the easiest implementation. Ranged Support 4 is not a prerequisite for an elite combat profession (except BH and Commando, but they probably would not have the extra skill points to use this) so it is an effective "sink" for skill points.
Daker, it was really bad form of you to post discussion in the voting thread. Everyone has been really constructive until now. As you can see, the debate continues. Its not to late for you to edit your message. Audio and I can edit our replies too. I found you calling Audio a jerk very ironic.
Let me start with this. I meant no offense to you Audio. I was pissed off already as I ready through the thread, because I noticed that people were one-starring all the disagrees. That is one of my hugest pet-peeves.
I posted my disagree, but added a quick thought. I didn't intend it to be mean or to cause problems, I was just telling you why I disagreed. I didn't think it was that big of a deal.
Then Vir comes in and "ahems" me, and again a disagree is one starred. I was really offended, because if your thread wasn't going to be fair to everyone who posts, there is no reason for anyone to post.
I will edit my posts when everyone stops attacking people with dissenting opinions.
p.s. I would NEVER call Audio a jerk...
You're wrong about this and let me tell you why.
This proposal balances the amount of pet lvls you get for the amount of skill points you spend only until you reach 0040 DE. After that, the only bonus is in MDE -- and that's only under one variant. Thus, the extra points people will spend beyond 0040 DE are not going get them the same amount of pet lvls. This fact means several things: 1) true combat dabblers will not go for it, becuase they could get real combat pay off bonuses in other professions. 2) This is not a CH/BE clone. CHs get a steady increase in pet lvls as they progress. This plan cuts off the pet lvls after 0040 DE. Unless people WANT to craft droids, they will not be progressing to MDE. And if they WANT to craft droids, they're full blown DEs and they should be WELCOMED into the club, not shunned -- no need to lament DEs crafting great droids.
Additionally, "incumbant" DEs have the advantage of 1) havinggathered the rare resources needed to be an EFFECTIVE DE like lidium extrusive ore, 2) the new crafting nerf makes it so that MDEs and MDEs with +25 Droid Expermentation tapes are at a significant advantage.
Let me say this...there are no extra skill points spent. Any artisan with the engineering tree is not spending those skill points to get to the handling tree. Any master DE is not spending anything extra. Anyone with a gun already have thge ranged support tree. All of the things you suggest include thing that players already do...everything suggested is not "extra" to someone.
The other big flaw is that it comes no where near the skill point investment CHs make for the same power. DE requires one prerequisitetree(engineering) CH requires 2 (2 scout trees). There would be one DE handling tree giving you level 36 pets, whereas CH has to master 2 skill trees to get the same pets. The devs will never go for it, and that is EXACTLY the reason TH spread droid handling over the whole DE profession in the first place.
I still maintain that a Droid mini-profession with 2 side skill-trees is the best solution, and that this would cause undue invasion into the DE profession.
If even 1 in 20 of the people who pick up the handler tree dabble further into DE, the market will be flooded and ruined for the rest of us. I can't accept that risk...
Daker wrote on the wrong thread:
Virtanis, don't be a jerk. I saw that. I also saw that people are going through and one-star pistol whipping every single person that disagrees with Sodan. If you guys aren't going to play nice, I won't either.
I gave those who didn't agree with the plan 3 stars for at least ***reading the f**king instructions and replying with agree / disagree***. They had the common courtesy to obey the request of the original poster, so what's your excuse?? Oh, and thanks for assuming all the people who are pro-plan went one-star-bombing those who didn't agree. Stereotype much?
I started with my answer. If Sodan doesn't want to read my opinion, he doesn't have to (and neither do you). Instead you exaberate the problem by ADDING a post to the thread. Pot kettle black.
Hey, if I see a response to a thread and click the thread to read it, by default I have to read your opinion. If you said "I disagree, but see my reasons for my disagreement at http://www.DakerCan'tFollowTheF-ingRules.com", then you're right... I wouldn't be forced to read your opinion. Yes, my re-post of Sodan's request requesting to limit the discusstion to "adds to the problem", and so did your additional post after mine. I can always go back and edit out my ONE post. Yeah, and how do you explain the addition of your follow up post? My comment was an effort to keep the thread adherent to the instructions in the post. Want to make a good faith gesture and remove your verbose reply? Do that, and I'll remove my one singular post.
I felt the need to clarify my answer because no one is following Sodan's original thread anymore, and I never posted in the original thread because I didn't take it seriously.
I've been following this thread since it's inception. Not once did it fall off page 1 of the DE forum. 8 pages of discussion from some community vets andother prominent DE'sand you "didn't take it seriously"? *boggle*
This proposal helps onlycombat DEs at the expense of crafter DEs.
Clarify.
By trying to propose this, you are hurting DE by wasting devs time that they could be considering new ideas.
How much of a waste of their time is it for Runesabre to read it and judge it's ability to be implemented?
If you want to continue to ruin the thread
Thanks for the admission...
If you want to be an adult, I have dusted off Sodan's original thread and reposted my comments there...feel free to go comment.
Dusted off?
(edit: spelling)
Message Edited by Virtanis on 03-08-2004 10:25 AM
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
All variants of this plan call for extra skill points spent to get combat droids usage. Are you just trying to distort things by purposefully ignoring a major component of the plan, or are you so reactionary and blinded with rage that you didn't see that little nugget?
Sodan, respectfully, nothing you suggest is really extra except the 4 DE boxes, which are not extra for DEs in any way.
Example: Ranged Support-you get abilities and specials for each box you spend skill points on. Most people already have it. And now you want to give the additional function as a gatekeeper for Droid Handling. If most combat players have it, and if you get benefits above and beyond droid handling out of it, how does it serve any gatekeeping, limiting function?
Example: Artisan-You count this in the skill points you need to handle droids. However, any crafter already has the engineering tree, and it takes less than 15 minutes to grind. How is this extra or limiting?
The only distortion, is that this is "extra." They aren't. Under 3 out of 4 of your varients, I would get the maximum droid handling ability possible for doing nothing additional the day the devs make the change. I just don't think that will fly.
I love the idea of having a tree or two dedicated to droid handling, I just don't think it should (or will ever be accepted by the devs) in the DE profession. I think it should be in a mini-profession instead.
We're trying to pull together here man. Your effort to pollute the consensus by discussing things ina voting-only thread where you could have discussed them here is contrary to that effort and clear calculated to do by volume of posts what you cannot do by volume of posts. Its not appreciated.
Go back through and read this entire thread. Maybe you'll change your mind.
I did read it...I have been reading it...I just waited until I saw your poll to comment because I saw it as a pipe dream. If you are going for a consensus, I don't think this is the direction we should be taking.
If I remember correctly, almost all DEs agreed that a mini profession would be great...what happened to that consensus?
Well i dont think its a good idea with the hybrid, im BE myself and the only way i can use my pets is to invest points in CH, it would only be fair if u would have to
I'm not as concerned about people taking one line to get the droid levels and deciding to branch out into droid engineering, since with any patch there is always a flood of people trying the latest changes out. I don't see the proposal adding a large number of DE's to the game over the long term.
Edit: Just wanted to add that the mini-tree is still a great idea but as you stated, it's not going to happen with the next 2 publishes. If new combat droids are not introduced now, we will probably not see them for months (next year?).
Message Edited by Javac on 03-08-2004 01:36 PM