Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Discussion: Hand-crafting vs. Factory-crafting (relating to Quality of product)
ArveMennderchukk wrote:
Drashk,
The point that I've been trying to make throughout this thread is that if the objective is to make crafting more fun for "handcrafters", why does that fun have to come at the expense of factory crafters?
Why can't we make handcrafting more rewarding without necessarily making that fun come at the expense of a comparative nerf to factory crafting?
I'm enthusiastic in support of the ideas of crafting based special loot drop generation or even combat creature special loot drops. I'm all for the idea of gaining "insight points" capped at 5 from hand-crafting -- so long as these "handcrafting" perks increase the fun of handcrafting, why does it have to come at the expense of factory crafting?
This insistence that the gameplay fun of the factory crafters be made to suffer in favor of the handcrafters doesn't make any sense to me, particularly when all kinds of suggestions have been made which would make the game more enjoyable for handcrafting without negatively impacting factory crafters.
Why are you so strongly motivated to have any suggested change occur at the expense of factory crafting rather than making the game more fun for everyone by just enhancing how handcrafting can play a role?
I honestly don't understand this perspective you are espousing. Can you please clarify for me why it is necessary to have any proposed change come at the expense of factory crafters?
I agree with Arve here. If it's a loot drop system that very rarely has items of the same serial number, than it's already so heavily biased towards hand crafting that any additional attempts to exclude it's use with factories seems pointless.
But I see that Drashk is also latching onto the idea that success be a random or player-skill based (vs. character-skill) result of some mini-game. But even so, I'm not sure I see why a very short factory run has to be a non-option so far as benefitting from the results of such a mini-game.
On the other topic of these loot items being buyable/sellable. I don't like this idea. Either the loot items will be so common place that their existence is a moot point (i.e., might as well just give everyone the benefits that the loot item is designed to provide automatically and not bother introducing the item to the game at all), or they will be somewhat rare, in which case the rich players will buy them off the market and drive the prices up. I very much like the idea that this hand-crafting / very-limited-factory-run enhancement prosses be a closed loop that doesn't pass through the economy.
Message Edited by Malitevv on 09-15-2004 02:40 PM
ArveMennderchukk wrote:
Either way, I think that the loot component proposal seems to have been generally accepted by all parties thus far in this discussion. Anything else that has been proposed has seemed to generate much contention (and should thus be a less likely candidate for consideration given that a palatable alternative seems to have emerged through concensus). Does anyone disagree with this?
Straker_Atrella wrote:
Ok first Mal,
Are you proposing that this item you get be something you can then use in later crafting? If that is this case, then that is different and I missed that. That would make sense then, you "discover" something while crafting, then use it later. I'm for that.
Tarne_Monter wrote:
Straker_Atrella wrote:
*Hand Crafting vs Factory Crafting
Ahh yes, now this is the heart of the matter. The problem with this part of the discussion is there are 2 schools of thought.
1. Hand crafting is a lower form of crafting, you use it because you "want" to, or until you get factories.
2. Hand crafting is an "Art," you take pride in your work and "feel" it is better because it is hand crafted.
You forgot option number 3.
3. Hand crafting can be viewed from a sheer game balance point of view. Look at the cost of hand crafting versus the gain. If they are not balanced (or nearly so) then hand crafting needs to be fixed.
- I support making Hand Crafting more "fun," yet I don't seea reason or need to make it "better" justto make it better. We already hand craft, all professions do to some extent.
What about making it better so that it's more balanced?
Well that became rather long. All I ask is that you rad the whole thing and not jsut the Yellow and Red
I feel sorry for anyone jumping into this thread late. Yikes it's alot of long posts and reading.
See here is where I disagree. Why should hand crafting be "balanced" with factory crafting? That is the same as saying Stim A's should be balancedwith D's, or that an E11 Rifle should be balanced with a T21. Why?
Hand crafting is a lower level skill that you use. In fact itALREADY get's used far more often, then other low level things. If you want to make Hand Crafting more fun, fine. Yet why should it be equal to factory crafting?
Actually. I think you're missing what I mean. Hand crafting should be balanced with itself. Not factory crafting.
Right now I think that the cost of hand crafting is larger than the gain you get from hand crafting. Factory crafting doesn't even enter into the issue.
What is the cost of Hand crafting? You don't pay maint, you don't pay lots, it doesn't take power. You can actually make stuff faster hand crafting, you can have more diversity by hand crafting, hand crafting just requires resources, not crates of componants. The only cost to Hand crafting is that you need to actually be there to do it.
Tarne_Monter wrote:
Straker_Atrella wrote:
See here is where I disagree. Why should hand crafting be "balanced" with factory crafting? That is the same as saying Stim A's should be balancedwith D's, or that an E11 Rifle should be balanced with a T21. Why?
Hand crafting is a lower level skill that you use. In fact itALREADY get's used far more often, then other low level things. If you want to make Hand Crafting more fun, fine. Yet why should it be equal to factory crafting?
Actually. I think you're missing what I mean. Hand crafting should be balanced with itself. Not factory crafting.
Right now I think that the cost of hand crafting is larger than the gain you get from hand crafting. Factory crafting doesn't even enter into the issue.
ArveMennderchukk wrote:
Drashk,
The point that I've been trying to make throughout this thread is that if the objective is to make crafting more fun for "handcrafters", why does that fun have to come at the expense of factory crafters?
Why can't we make handcrafting more rewarding without necessarily making that fun come at the expense of a comparative nerf to factory crafting?
I'm enthusiastic in support of the ideas of crafting based special loot drop generation or even combat creature special loot drops. I'm all for the idea of gaining "insight points" capped at 5 from hand-crafting -- so long as these "handcrafting" perks increase the fun of handcrafting, why does it have to come at the expense of factory crafting?
This insistence that the gameplay fun of the factory crafters be made to suffer in favor of the handcrafters doesn't make any sense to me, particularly when all kinds of suggestions have been made which would make the game more enjoyable for handcrafting without negatively impacting factory crafters.
Why are you so strongly motivated to have any suggested change occur at the expense of factory crafting rather than making the game more fun for everyone by just enhancing how handcrafting can play a role?
I honestly don't understand this perspective you are espousing. Can you please clarify for me why it is necessary to have any proposed change come at the expense of factory crafters?
The problem is that its not taking away from the Factory crafters at all.
Let me put a question to you...
How many Factory Crafters do you know who have more them one account, so that they can participate in other aspects of this game and still have the ability to produce a steady income from their crafted goods?
How many Factory Crafters do you know that spend all of their time crafting items, or running down resources?
The point that I'm trying to get across here is that the Factory Crafter already has all of the benefits that a Hand Crafter does,but has the ability to participate in much more of thegame. This is a huge benefit over the Hand Crafter, who spends a lot of their time doing just that...Hand Crafting.
The Hand Crafters already are being penalized under the current system by not being a Factory Crafter. It may seem like a playstyle choice but consider these....
- If the only way to win in PvP is to be a certain profession, is there a playstyle choice?
- If the only way to become a Jedi is through profession grinding, as was the case of the old system, is there a playstyle choice?
- If the only way to fight in PvE is with a pet, buffs, or Uber armor, is there a playstyle?
- If the only way to be a competitive crafter and participate in other aspects of this game is to run factories full time, is there a playstyle choice?
I could list many others, but if a person can not understand the difference between penalizing someone and trying to level the playing field a little, then it would be pointless to do so. You are completely focused on seeing this as being at the expense of Factory Crafters. Have you stopped to think about how the current field of play looks?
I would really like to point out something about my stance on this subject...
The last time that I did a factory run on Live, I produced 100 of each Droid Chassis type and still had1000 of each Droid Component and most modules. I am a hard core industialist that at one pointwas running 3 accounts to keep myself rolling in resources. Shortly before I became the DE Correspondent, I cut back to just the one account, since the other 2 accounts belonged to two RL friends of mine.
Now, I do all of my final droid builds by hand and let the Factories do most of the components. I once again have 3 toons that I run, since I 'live' on Test Center. I don't keep nearly the stock that I did on Live, due to the lower population levels, however I still am able to produce a wide varity of products with multiple crafting professions. I also don't have much of a social life, or any other kind of life, besides the game. 
The point that I am trying to get across is that I know what both are like and can be successful in both situations and know the limitations and benefits of both 'playstyles'. I would also not be consideredmyself theaverage player, nor would anyone that has been a part of the Correspondents program, since it really does take a lot of time and effort to be a successful part of the program. (Not trying to be a braggart on this one, just stating a fact.)
What some would consider a change to the Hand Crafting system as being at the expense to Factory Crafters, others would consider making Hand Crafting a viable alternative to Factory Crafting.
Straker_Atrella wrote:
What is the cost of Hand crafting? You don't pay maint, you don't pay lots, it doesn't take power. You can actually make stuff faster hand crafting, you can have more diversity by hand crafting, hand crafting just requires resources, not crates of componants. The only cost to Hand crafting is that you need to actually be there to do it.
Good points all Straker, but Time would be the major factor in all of this, since factory crafting can be done so without you even being logged on. Keep in mind that even in a game, the old axiom 'Time is money' still holds true.
Straker_Atrella wrote:
What is the cost of Hand crafting? You don't pay maint, you don't pay lots, it doesn't take power. You can actually make stuff faster hand crafting, you can have more diversity by hand crafting, hand crafting just requires resources, not crates of componants. The only cost to Hand crafting is that you need to actually be there to do it.
Drashk wrote:
Good points all Straker, but Time would be the major factor in all of this, since factory crafting can be done so without you even being logged on. Keep in mind that even in a game, the old axiom 'Time is money' still holds true.
Straker_Atrella wrote:
What is the cost of Hand crafting? You don't pay maint, you don't pay lots, it doesn't take power. You can actually make stuff faster hand crafting, you can have more diversity by hand crafting, hand crafting just requires resources, not crates of componants. The only cost to Hand crafting is that you need to actually be there to do it.
Your 100% right Drashk, factories save you time. Yet they cost lots, Maint, and power, plus you have no diversity. So for that time you pay.
Hand crafting does not have those costs.
If you want crafting to be more fun, I agree.
If you think the game is unbalanced due to large amounts of good gear, "Maybe."
If you think that Factory and Hand ccrafting should be balanced to each other, I disagree. They should be balanced to themselves, each with pluses and minuses, and they already are. Hand crafting or factory crafting is a choice, nothing stops either side from doing the other.
Atan wrote:
Straker_Atrella wrote:
What is the cost of Hand crafting? You don't pay maint, you don't pay lots, it doesn't take power. You can actually make stuff faster hand crafting, you can have more diversity by hand crafting, hand crafting just requires resources, not crates of componants. The only cost to Hand crafting is that you need to actually be there to do it.
The Option to critical Failure, or get a non-good experimentation....
I would think that even a 12 Point DE with a full clothing set in a city with a research center can't reproduce the same exceptional success 1000 times like a schematic can.
MfG
Atan
Ok valid point. Sorry about making consecutive posts, but others keep posting while I'm typing.
Your right, I can still Critical fail hand crafting. Yet with clothes, food, and a good city, it really doesn't happen often.
I still think that it balances out with not taking lots, maint, or power though. Plus you can choose to factory run or hand craft, neither is forced on you.
Straker_Atrella wrote:
Drashk, I read all of that and understand what you are saying. I just don't understand what you claim is stopping the person from one account from making factory runs? Sure with less lots, it may take longer, but he is just as capable of making a run of 100 droids as somebody else.
Nothing stops the single account owner, or casual player from using factories. They choose not too, which is a playstyle choice. Did you read my thread where I broke down Powergaing, casual, and hand crafting all against each other.
It seems like your mixing up the arguements all together, when they are not the same.
But Drashk does have a point there. The single account player can run factories if he wants to, which gives him lots of in-game free time, but then what is he able to do with the free time that the factories have saved him? His single character is a crafter, and very possibly a merchant. He might have a few combat skills too, but his options are considerably limited. Once all his factories are up and running, the only thing for him to do is to sit around and twiddle his thumbs. Or socialize in game, or something. But he doesn't have the options of running off and doing the corvette or anything else heavily combat based because he has only a single toon and has used that toons skill points for crafting.
I understand a little bit of what Drashk is getting at in this respect now. There isn't enough for non-combat professions to do in-game. If they had an incentive and reason to hand-craft, there would be more for them to do. They'd likely run factories too. But I really don't think factories are the point. Not really. The point I see drashk getting at is that the crafting "end-game" is a "lots of free time with nothing else to do" sort of game. You and I, have dealt with it by buying another account and using the extra skill points to run off and explore the combat side of the game. But the single account player is stuck. Maybe he does need more content.
Not sure it is going to work though, if that is the goal. I see upcoming MMORPG's are separating the crafting and combat professsions so each character can freely choose an unrestricted path in both directions without the choices along one path restricting the options in the other. That is probably the better game design....
Straker_Atrella wrote:
Drashk, I read all of that and understand what you are saying. I just don't understand what you claim is stopping the person from one account from making factory runs? Sure with less lots, it may take longer, but he is just as capable of making a run of 100 droids as somebody else.
Nothing stops the single account owner, or casual player from using factories. They choose not too, which is a playstyle choice. Did you read my thread where I broke down Powergaing, casual, and hand crafting all against each other.
It seems like your mixing up the arguements all together, when they are not the same.
Ok, let me put it this way...
Back when the whole DC profession/Cert system was on the table TH stated that Droid Certs were out of the question since it would lead to a person having to get a droid cert and droid, just to keep the competitive edge with everyone else that has a droid cert and droid. What it came down to was a forced balance issue. Person A would be 'forced' to get a droid in order to stay in line with Person B.
The same is starting to ring true for Factory Crafters vs Hand Crafters. A Hand Crafter already needs at least 1 factory, so that they are able to produce all of their crafted items, due to item schematics. This is a natural part of being a crafter. Where it begins to relate to the above mentioned is that in order for a Hand Crafter to compete with someone that is strictly a Factory Crafter, the person must either produce huge volumes ofthe sameproduct, or offer a limited number of the same product, but with stats that are slightly different.
Changing gears.....
Majority of all sales come from impulse buying. This is a proven marketing fact and is why we see candy, soda, and certain reading materials right by the check out stand, in real life.
In the game, its the Factory Crafters, who can produce items on a much larger scale, that are able to take advantage of the Impulse buyers, since they will typically have a large volume of items listed on the vendor.
The only way that I can see balancing out against the Factory Crafters, is to allow the Hand Crafter a product that could be slightly different then what we would see on a Factory Crafters Vendor.
By limiting the Hand Crafter in some way, with a loot or credit system, we still ensure that the Factory Crafter, whos vendor is always stocked, will still be the vendor of choice for the Impulse buyers.