Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Discussion: Hand-crafting vs. Factory-crafting (relating to Quality of product)
Just off the top of my head, it would be nice to see "Droid Shield Generators" (as mentioned before, possibly a drop from Droideka). Even more wonderful would be to have Droideka drop a rare 1-3 use "Droideka" schematic.
Something else neat might be "specialty" combat modules. Like a "Ion Blaster Combat Module" that did stun damage rather than energy damage. Or an "Acid Spray Combat Module" or "Coolant Extinguisher Combat Module" (does cold damage).
Others might be additional special entertainment modules (dancing Ewoks?).
Et cetera...
ArveMennderchukk wrote:
Also, if we do reach agreement that some sort of loot system is the appropriate method to address the issue that TK raised, I would respectfully like to suggest that we either use this thread or start another to begin brainstorming potential loot components/schematics.
Just off the top of my head, it would be nice to see "Droid Shield Generators" (as mentioned before, possibly a drop from Droideka). Even more wonderful would be to have Droideka drop a rare 1-3 use "Droideka" schematic.
Something else neat might be "specialty" combat modules. Like a "Ion Blaster Combat Module" that did stun damage rather than energy damage. Or an "Acid Spray Combat Module" or "Coolant Extinguisher Combat Module" (does cold damage).
Others might be additional special entertainment modules (dancing Ewoks?).
Et cetera...
I like all these, especially loot drops that let us modify the type of damage that a combat droid does.
/bow
ArveMennderchukk wrote:
How can it be the best stuff if it didn't have rare loots? Couldn't have been armor. Couldn't have been weapons. Couldn't have been medic buffs. Must have been droids or food/drink.
Items made with rare loots are good examples of the system balancing for factory use v. hand-crafting. That system has had its share of problems, however. I'm not saying those should go away or get knocked down. Pointing to any specific example of how things are now is sorta moot in my thinking cause I'm talking about a change to crafting (at its core) that would mean that we'd have to forget all that we know now about how "quality" crafting works.
Being able to point to example X or item Y that shows there's already some hand-crafted items that ARE the best is fine. However, what I'm trying to get at here is how to ensure that all items can be manufactured in a similar situation but not always with loot drops as the key element that makes it rare.
Loot based crafting similar to armorsmiths/weaponsmiths would make the "true" top end droids (or whatever that "BEST" stuff was) impossible to create in large factory runs (limited serial drops).
Yea...I'd sorta hate to see them go this route but I suspect they might. That system has its own share of big issues and I wanna wipe the whiteboard clean and see if there's some other ideas that haven't ever been brought up. The 'blue-sky' type stuff. Our version of a revamp/balance a la combat where it all starts from scratch and is pretty much reworked from the ground up (loot drops worked in).
Not surprisingly, the concensus that seems to have emerged in this thread to date is that the best way to add value to make crafting enjoyable without destroying fun for others would be to use a loot-based system.
I'm not sold on that. I understand that a lot of people point to it due to the fact that it's a system we have in place now. I'd like to suggest that we dig even deeper to the core of the crafting 'game'. Forget what we know know now. Forget what's there....start talking about how the slate can be wiped clean and the whole thing (all of it) done better. This is, in part, what the Combat Balance/Revamp thing was all about.
I would hate for us to go down any such road and confine ourselves only to the protocols and methods employed now. Let's not be looking at what we have....but what we should have.
At present, two proposals for how these loots could be obtained have been suggested. The standard creature loot drop and Mal's innovative "crafting discovery" loot drop.
Of these, I prefer the latter. It's a bit silly to me that you'd kill a crazed durni and some new cool craftable technology component would drop off its hide. What....did it rummage through some Tech companies trash can and the prototype got lodged? It's sorta.........silly.
Mal's idea actually has some merit in that it's during the process of innovation that many new technologies are created. People trying to invent one thing stumble onto something new. I think it makes more sense (to the degreeit can be in a game such as we have here).
Of the two, I have to say that I'm more interested in Mal's suggestion. However, I don't think that the two are mutually exclusive. Perhaps a schematic for "Droid Shield Generators" could be dropped by destroyed Droideka and "Experimental Droid Brain" component drop could emerge from Mal's suggested mechanic.
Yea...this is details, details. It's more important to me that we leave the details for later and focus on core issues. I hadn't intended the thread to focus on it but the discussion of a wholly revamped crafting core system, inclusive to both hand-crafters and factory users, would be very much worthwhile to explore.
I don't want anyone.................ANYONE..............feeling left behind, nerfed or otherwise put at some kind of imbalanced disadvantage. Balance (of risk v. reward) and tradeoffs (to promote a better 'choice' for both crafter and client) are what I think are key here. The details are just so much window-dressing.
Either way, I think that the loot component proposal seems to have been generally accepted by all parties thus far in this discussion. Anything else that has been proposed has seemed to generate much contention (and should thus be a less likely candidate for consideration given that a palatable alternative seems to have emerged through concensus). Does anyone disagree with this?
I agree that lootables are a quick/easy solution. I'm hoping that we can look beyond that get to something better...if it exists. /shrug
Respectfully,
One of the big attractors for me (and presumably many other crafters in SWG) is the current crafting system.
Change it too much and you potentially have something unrecognizable and unfun. That seems like an exceptionally risky thing for a company like Sony to do.
That being said, I'd like to see the disassembly stuff that had been part of original design returned. Not only would it open up all kinds of opportunities for handcrafting, but it might clean the DB. If items could be "recycled" by breaking them down, a lot of hoarded items might be "destroyed" in that fashion (even if only to get at the resources -- DEs might even buy CM poisons just to get their tolium).
- Increased/Reduced Stomach fill
- Increased/Reduced Attribute Bonus
- Random added stat bonus (HAM and substat bonus for the duration of the food)
- Random food attribute (Bonus to Dodge, Crafting, Wound treatment, etc)
- Crafting Failure
For Doctors/Combat Medic
- Increased/Reduced Medical Use Skill
- Increased/Reduced Effectiveness
- Increased/Reduced Number of Uses
- Random added Immunization (Poision, Disease, Fire Innoculations)
- Crafting Failure
For Weaponsmiths
- Increased/Reduced Weapon Damage
- Increased/Reduced Weapon Speed
- Increased/Reduced HAM Costs
- Random Damage type (Acid, Electricity, AR1)
- Crafting Failure
For Armorsmiths
- Increased/Reduced Resistance
- Increased/Reduced HAM Costs
- Random added Resistance type
- Increased Color Palette
- Crafting Failure
For Architects
- Increased/Reduced Storage Capacity (Houses, Factories, Harvesters)
- Increased/Reduced Maintenance Fees (Houses, Factories, Harvesters)
- Increased/Reduced BER rating (Only effective to the absolute max rating. IE Heavy = BER 14)
- Random Housing Bonus (105% Medical Healing, 105% Entertainment Healing, etc.)
- Crafting Failure
For Tailors
- Increased/Reduced Clothing Condition (Dependent on Condition working correctly)
- Increased Color Palette
- Random Skill enhancement bonus (+1-3 Cover, Experimentation, Assembly, Etc..)
- Random Resistance Bonus (+5% Kinetic AR0, +5% Blast AR0, Etc)
- Crafting Failure
Bio-Engineers
- Increased/Reduced Pet HAM
- Increased/Reduced Pet Damage
- Increased/Reduced Bio-Effects (Nutrients, Active Biosensor, Etc)
- Random Effect added to Bio-Effects(Treat Injury/Wound gains Bleed Resists, Etc)
- Crafting Failure
Droid Engineers
- Increased/Reduced Droid HAM
- Increased/ReducedCombat Rating
- Increased/Reduced Module Effects
- Random Effects added to Armor or Damage
- Crafting Failure
If you will notice, I left out the Basic Professions in the above listings. They could be added, if others feel it appropriate, however I feel that only the Advanced Professions should be included in such a revamp. I also did not include any of the professions that could be considered crafting dabblers such as Smugglers, Rangers, Musicians, and Dancers. I guess I ran out of 'creative' juices for ideas for each of those professions.
One thing that I should note about the Increased X suggestions. For reasons of balance, the increase should be no more then +5% with the Maximum value of 100% being an absolute. This would finally allow people that have 95% and above successes the ability to achieve 100% successes, after the crafting process. A +5% bonus could be extended beyond a 100% success, but I would have to caution that such a suggestion could 'overpower' certain items such as Armor, Weapons, and asome Droid Modules, to list a few.
Now, for my suggestion on how to make the process work...
After Experimentation if completed, you would have the choice to Complete the Item, Create a Manufactoring Schematic, or Add Loot Component. Chosing the 'Add Loot Component' option would bring you to a new crafting screen that would list the current attributes of the crafted item and 1slot for a loot component. Once the Loot item is installed, and the 'Retune' button is pushed, we see the final result of Good, Bad, or a lost item.
As an alternate suggestion to Loot Components -
Someone else mentioned the suggestion of the Phase 1 Crafting quest Mini-game. The above mentioned ideas could easily be adapoted to a 'Recalibration' mini-game such as we see in the Phase 1 Crafting Quest. Basically, we would once again have the choice of Complete the Item, Create a Manufactoring Schematic, but instead of Adding a Loot Component, we would see Recalibrate Item. Chosing 'Recalibrate Item' would open up 1 of X number of puzzles, where X would be the maximum number of mini-games that were created. The puzzles could range from Red, Blue and Green Wires, to the more complex slider puzzles we see in the Phase 1 Quest. The random factor of which puzzle you recieve would determine 'the payoff' if you suceed, or fail. The simple 'Rock, Sissor, Paper' style puzzles would result in the lowest Risk/Return factor while a puzzle such as the for the Solid State Array mini-game, from the Phase 1 Quest, would offer the highest Risk/Return and could even result in a lost item, if the puzzle is failed.
Comments?
I pretty much like where you were going with your proposal, particularly the second option with the mini-game. The only difference I would have is that I think the "Recalibration" loot insertion part should take place either before experimentation or when you already have an item.
The idea of a mini-game making tweaking/fiddling with a single end-stage item more fun is a great one. This is the kind of thing I was trying to get at with the disassembly/replace idea.
However, by making it so that you have to choose between using a factory and doing it by hand seems to unnecessarily add a hurdle. Current loots can be incorporated in schematics before the experimentation stage. Because the number of identical serial items from a single drop is extremely limited, this means that the possibility of factory crafting is of extremely limited feasibility -- but still possible. The method you propose removes this possibility for no clear reason.
Alternatively, if this "Recalibration" ability you describe could be done "after-market", then it opens a whole new set of possibilities, playstyles, and markets. You might even have situations where a handcrafter master droid engineer goes and buys a bulk order of 10 droids from a factory crafter master droid engineer, then "Recalibrates" each one by hand and sells at a markup. In this way, you have not negatively impacted either playstyle and have increased the net fun.
Drashk wrote:
The only problem thatI could see with such a suggestion is that some sort of db tracking would need to be set up in the system to accomidate for such a bonus. It would lead to an increased number of 'Specialists' I think, which would help increase the number of Crafters that a Server could support. The question though is how item specific are we talking about?A pretty good number of crafters have taken up more then one Crafting Profession. Should the bonus be set up so that it is Profession specific or is limited to all crafted items by a single person?
As for the Loot drop items, one thing that you need to keep in mind about such a blanketed loot drop idea, that would touch all professions, is that the Loot drop items would be as common as the Rebel and Imperial Transmission disks, that still drop from the 'Monthly Story Archs'. If the Loot drop items were so common, were you could buy them in bulk, would you still have the same negative feelings about them?
Yea, db tracking would be pretty nasty. Don't think it would be too awfully large, but the kind of persistent system it would have to use could be pretty resource intensive... As far as how specific I was talking, my idea was to make it pretty specific, (again, the database would probably be an issue here since you'd have to add some more categories) such as R2 units, or Rifles, or drinks, whatever the logical break is for the professions. Its not that you would have one item that you were always better at making than the rest, you could be equally good at all the items if you made them in equal proportions. Heres a very rough example of what I'm talking about.
Crafter A makes 5 R2 units (or however many the magic number works out to) on monday, and his "R2 crafting rating" (which is hidden) is +2 afterwords (or whatever number looks good).
On tuesday he doesn't make any, so his rating drops down by 1 to +1
On wednesday he makes 3 more, so his rating goes back up to +2
on Thursday he makes 5 again and his rating goes up to +4
etc...
Anyway, I think it would be very intersting to see highly specialized crafters.
As far as the loot thing goes, its not so much the rarity that I have a problem with, its the storage issues (at any given time I only have 3-4 inventory spaces open, and I need at least that many to craft my droids) and also the fact that I just don't like the idea that some durni's hide is supposed to make my droids stronger...
As far as mal's suggestion about some kind of built up crafting "credit", I like that idea too. Doesn't have the added bonus of creating a specialization market, but it does help add another layer onto the current market.
babyblue_d wrote:
Straker_Atrella wrote:
3. Hand crafting can be viewed from a sheer game balance point of view. Look at the cost of hand crafting versus the gain. If they are not balanced (or nearly so) then hand crafting needs to be fixed.
See here is where I disagree. Why should hand crafting be "balanced" with factory crafting? That is the same as saying Stim A's should be balancedwith D's, or that an E11 Rifle should be balanced with a T21. Why?
Hand crafting is a lower level skill that you use. In fact itALREADY get's used far more often, then other low level things. If you want to make Hand Crafting more fun, fine. Yet why should it be equal to factory crafting?
I beleave what is ment is not balanced with factories but balanced like factories.
in your example the t21 is a good gun very highbut that ham costs are high thats the trade off. now look at the E11 the ham is low but so is the damege
lets go fictional now. the point is hand crafting (for some) like a E11 with ham costsalothigher than the T21 .. its not fair to the guy that cant pickup the skills to get above the E11 cert.Inthis this case the E11 would need to be balanced in its own right and the T21 is something to look at to seewhat a example of balance is. Is lowering the ham on our fictional E11 a nerf to the T21 user?
no becouse the T21 is good in its own right and is still a good choice. but if on one hade seen the game like it is now and the unbalinced E11 was all the players had it would look like a nerf to the T21 user. would it not? he would argue the ham is lower on his higher damege gun becouse he is a "end game" combat profesion. but the fact is the E11 was not a"balanced" weapon and neededto be balanced for its users.This would not make it beter that the T21 just a valid choise for a lower damege weapon.
this does not make the two equel just balanced
maby this will help put things in prospective as the terms balanced and nerf seem to be taken as the same meening
Message Edited by babyblue_d on 09-15-2004 05:00 AM
Straker is right. comparing high end weapons to low end weapons does not demonstrate your point baby. The E11's HAM costs are not balanced against its speed or damage output when compared against the T21. It is inferior by design. The balancing factor for the T21 vs. the E11 is the skill points required to get the certification and not in the HAM costs.
Straker_Atrella wrote:
Yet that isn't how it is. The E11 is MEANT to be replaced by the next highest energy weapon as you get to it. The T21 has heavy Armor Piercing, which all HAM costs aside will always make it reign supreme.
Straker_Atrella wrote:2 parts.Tk,you keep making comments on crates and crates, and pages of the most uber item available. Yet, that simply is not the case. As was stated before, loot drops AND slicing make the truly uber item uber. Slicing is horribly erratic, and much of what you consider "uber" get's thrown out. The same thing would happen later, a bad slice in this ultra rare and crafted item, would relegate it to junk.You can't look at it from a crafting point of view, without looking at slicing as well.Ok second part...Jenden, your idea is pretty cool, but I think I like a combination of Mals and Drashks better.As you hand craft, or do certain crafting quests, you can get a "crafting Insight bonus" credit. The higher the complexity of the item, the more likely you are to get one. This stops people from grinding lower parts for them. Each character would max at 5.Drashk, your bonuses, seem pretty decent.Spending these would be rather rare, so I could see having a crafting mini calibration game at the end. How well you did on the mini game determines how good your bonus is.However, I propose this change. Allow factory runs... heh hold up and read.Right before the crafting mini-game, you have an option to pick a schematic, yet at this point you also must pick how many "Crafting Insight Bonus" credits you want to spend. With each person maxing at 5, you could only do a run of 5 max. Then you do the mini game. If you botch the mini game, then all 5 credits are gone.People who do this more often (Hand crafters,) will be better at the mini game from practice.The only downside I see with this is that for people who don't sell a lot of product, you will find yourself crafting stuff just ot get the credits.
Oh! I very much like this evolution of the idea.
ArveMennderchukk wrote:
Drashk,
I pretty much like where you were going with your proposal, particularly the second option with the mini-game. The only difference I would have is that I think the "Recalibration" loot insertion part should take place either before experimentation or when you already have an item.
The idea of a mini-game making tweaking/fiddling with a single end-stage item more fun is a great one. This is the kind of thing I was trying to get at with the disassembly/replace idea.
However, by making it so that you have to choose between using a factory and doing it by hand seems to unnecessarily add a hurdle. Current loots can be incorporated in schematics before the experimentation stage. Because the number of identical serial items from a single drop is extremely limited, this means that the possibility of factory crafting is of extremely limited feasibility -- but still possible. The method you propose removes this possibility for no clear reason.
Alternatively, if this "Recalibration" ability you describe could be done "after-market", then it opens a whole new set of possibilities, playstyles, and markets. You might even have situations where a handcrafter master droid engineer goes and buys a bulk order of 10 droids from a factory crafter master droid engineer, then "Recalibrates" each one by hand and sells at a markup. In this way, you have not negatively impacted either playstyle and have increased the net fun.
The thing is Arve, the suggestion that the process be done during the crafting process would limit it completely to hand crafting. What you are suggesting would make it so that Factory crafted items could be 'Recalibrated' as well.
Making it specific to hand crafting makes it so that you do not devalue either crafting process, since Factory Crafting would always produce the same quality Item. Having the negative effects also associated with 'Recalibrating' throws in the random factor which would put a Risk/Reward system into play. If you were able to do this on already crafted Items, the ability to produce higher numbers of better products would devalue the ability for the Hand Crafter.
The Loot items that I am suggesting would be only single drop items, without multiples of the same serial number. You wouldn't need serial numbers if the component was being added to end crafted items, such as a droid deed. The reason behind this is that this system isn't designed to compete with the specific loot drop components, such as Krayt tissues and Genosian cubes, which will always add a bonus. It is set up to put in a Risk/Reward system for those that wish to take the time to Hand craft.
Hand-Crafting vs Factory-Crafting is the core of this entire thread, at leastin my eyes. All of what I have been suggesting are ideas that could be added to bring hand crafting back into the equation as a viable crafting function. As it stands, there really isn't a reason for anyone to hand craft, when we face the fact that Factories are much more effcient, in the long run.
I'm trying to make suggestions that would not devalue either avenue of crafting, yet at the same time give crafters a reason to hand craft.
With a 'Recalibration'/Loot component system we wouldnot devalue either playstyle of crafting because -
- Factories would always produce the same quality goods, that we see now
- There would be risks involved with the Recalibration/Loot system that would result in the complete loss of the crafted item
- No one is penalized for their crafting choice.
Jenden wrote:
As far as the loot thing goes, its not so much the rarity that I have a problem with, its the storage issues (at any given time I only have 3-4 inventory spaces open, and I need at least that many to craft my droids) and also the fact that I just don't like the idea that some durni's hide is supposed to make my droids stronger...
The point that I've been trying to make throughout this thread is that if the objective is to make crafting more fun for "handcrafters", why does that fun have to come at the expense of factory crafters?
Why can't we make handcrafting more rewarding without necessarily making that fun come at the expense of a comparative nerf to factory crafting?
I'm enthusiastic in support of the ideas of crafting based special loot drop generation or even combat creature special loot drops. I'm all for the idea of gaining "insight points" capped at 5 from hand-crafting -- so long as these "handcrafting" perks increase the fun of handcrafting, why does it have to come at the expense of factory crafting?
This insistence that the gameplay fun of the factory crafters be made to suffer in favor of the handcrafters doesn't make any sense to me, particularly when all kinds of suggestions have been made which would make the game more enjoyable for handcrafting without negatively impacting factory crafters.
Why are you so strongly motivated to have any suggested change occur at the expense of factory crafting rather than making the game more fun for everyone by just enhancing how handcrafting can play a role?
I honestly don't understand this perspective you are espousing. Can you please clarify for me why it is necessary to have any proposed change come at the expense of factory crafters?