Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Discussion: Hand-crafting vs. Factory-crafting (relating to Quality of product)
Drashk wrote:
I think that too many people look at what a Correspondent has to say in his/her Community, while trying to see what people think about an idea, as an indication to what he/she will tell the DEVs or other Correspondents. To be a good Correspondent, one must be able to speak his/her opinion yet at the same time be able to report the wants and needs of the Community as a 'whole'. TK does a rather good job of this. If he didn't he, I wouldn't be here saying otherwise. His views stated here may or may not be his own. Either way, rest asured that he represents the community and not his own personal interests, when reporting information that he gathers.
We know someone else who got in hot water doing that .... *wink*
Right now, weaponsmiths have an extremely hard time selling anything because the devs, in some sort of insanity fit, decided to create DOT weapons and then make them only available as high end drops.
I agree that this was a huge mistake on the DEVs part. They have even admitted as much and have taken actions to bring all weapons back in line during the Combat Balance/Revamp. Don't be surprised if we see a major swing back to the crafted weapons that we know and love, plus maybe even a few more. We will have to wait and see how they are handled, but I can pretty much promise you that they won't be as 'uber' as they look now.
Also #3 of my list to yell and scream about during the sandbox period.
ArveMennderchukk wrote:
TheRealTK421 wrote:
I don't want the discussion to be about the "necessity" to handcraft. Instead, how to get it better/cooler/more fun so that there's reasons to hand-craft (even if it might not affect stats). It still can be on the table for a core design 'pass' and/or overhaul (and so should factory use as well).
TK, again with all due respect, I think you're still missing the point.
Errr...how can I? I'm the one that started the thread.
(No offense, but...) Maybe you're missing the point of this entire thread/discussion.
When you say "I don't want the discussion to be about the necessity to handcraft.... Instead, how to get it better/cooler/more fun so that there's reasons to hand-craft" you ARE talking about the necessity to handcraft.
No. I don't want hand-crafting to be a "necessity". I would personally prefer to see it as a viable choice, however. That is something that, frankly, doesn't exist currently (with respect to 'quality', etc.).
If it is better to handcraft, you have just completely dispensed with factory crafting.
Bettering hand-crafting doesn't have to signal an end to factory use.....far from it. They need to be considered in relation to each other and the larger marketplace so that each option is more fun, more viable and 'inclusive'. As was stated earlier by Snikrop....the crafting system isn't as much fun/entertaining as I think we'd all like it to be.
Part of this discussion goes very much into changing that. I'm reading some number of DEs that would seem to support some sort of core changes that would actually make hand-crafting FUN...and not a grind./bow
Is it wrong for us to even discuss such a thing? I sure hope not...cause it means we have to live with grind hand-crafting for the duration. I don't think any of us wants that if the door could ever be opened to changing it.
You have just reaffirmed the point I've been making -- namely, that while saying you want to be inclusive and just be "talkin", you are consistently pushing the perspective that handcrafting should be better than using factories.
Not "better"....simply a different sort of choice. NO type of crafting should have a clear and overwhelming advantage over the other. This might equate to an "I Win" type 'button'/template, etc. for the combat portion of the game.
No crafting method should be the clear, universal, end-all choice when creating quality product. Period. If so, it further makes the other method (that isn't the clear choice) into even more of a grind that it already is...
It is exactly this perspective which finds so much disagreement.
Then perhaps some people are have some misperceptions about what this discussion is actually trying to get to, issue-wise. As I'd stated earlier, I'm concerned that I've not yet really framed the topic of discussion in a way that's not divisive but inclusive to all (so that ALL types of crafting, factory and hand, can be made more fun, more rewarding, more entertaining and overall..............better).
In short: this "handcrafting" issue is a red herring whose only real purpose can be to deflect interest/criticism by appealing to the dilettante.
Uhhh....that's your take on the real purpose. The actual purpose here is to have a discussion about core crafting implementation / design and 'usability engineering' to ensure that all types of crafting are balanced, fun, rewarding and inclusive.
Note: I probably need to say this yet again.........this is NOT an 'Anti-factory-use discussion'.
The frustrating part of this entire exchange is that you either aren't listening to the concerns expressed or you are wilfully choosing to ignore this disagreement.
Uhhh....no, I'm gathering opinions, viewpoints and furthering discussion to see if the overall crafting experience can be made better. I don't ignore disagreements. I want to get to the heart of the issue that causes disagreement so that betters solutions and systems can come to light to address them for all players.
To re-iterate something I said before -- rather than dissipate the energies of passionate crafters across all servers on fighting for or against the railroading of this new "handcrafting" concept, why can't dev and community resources be devoted to fixing the GIGANTIC SLEW of broken stuff in crafting?
Bug fixes are ongoing irregardless of the outcome of any discussion we might have on core crafting 'revamp' type ideas.
And......../sigh...............no one is getting railroaded on anything here. We are TALKING.
/emote shakes his head...people just aren't getting it somehow...
Wouldn't that dramatically increase crafter satisfaction?
If crafting were bug-free but still as 'grindy' (i.e. not fun/entertaining)....would that equate to satisfaction?
The way it appears to me is that any attempt to blithely scrap and reforge the entire crafting system (which is implied by this "investigation" of handcrafting vs factories), why can't our existing bugs be addressed?
Cause the Devs don't like you.
But seriously...the only investigation here is an information/viewpoint-gathering one. We can see this discussion go to 30 pages but that doesn't mean anything in it will ever see even a single keystroke by the Dev team.
We are talking...........that is all.
To me, this sounds like something that the devs presented to the corrs at the summit and the waters are being tested through corrs like TK.
Then you are woefully mistaken. As stated well by Drashk, this is a topic that came up between some of the crafting Corrs. as something to kick around.
That.......................................is................................................all.
I suggest that as the crafting community we should unite in communicating back to the devs that they should stop revamping and start repairing.
Why not discuss both? A revamp (and repair) aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.
Respectfully,
We shouldn't be saying this though...we have a different perspective on the larger picture than most peeps.
Drashk wrote:
JavelinCatcher wrote:
We know someone else who got in hot water doing that .... *wink*
I would like to point out that more people are finally realizing that I wasn't just trying to blow smoke or push my own agenda on that one. I was just trying to get people to understand where we were at and what we were headed towards. Take this as my offical 'I TOLD YOU SO!1!1!' which looks to be the second time I have stated that in the last 24 hours.
What this comes down to (IMO) is that people aren't always able to trust that we have both the larger picture (health of the overall game) in perspective with the needs/issues of our profession community.
I don't suspect there's any real way to address that, really. Sometimes, we just have to go with our gut and try to do right by the peeps in our community. Trying to explain where we are at and where we were headed towards is all fine and dandy. The only caveat is that you will have a harder time doing so when people are only able to view part of the picture (or choose to ignore that which lies beyond the 'place' they live in the game).
My perfect example of this is/was the need for the Crafting Exper. change (that we got to see for 1 day). I really really wanted that to get in. However, I think so many people flipped out, it was pulled. From what I can tell, it really would have been a seriously great thing for most every crafting profession (and the overall health of the server economies). In that case, the dissenting voices won out...so we got to revert to the old system.
/bow
Respectfully,
TheRealTK421 wrote:
We are talking...........that is all.
Message Edited by JavelinCatcher on 09-14-2004 03:58 PM
ArveMennderchukk wrote:
Drashk,
I would love the introduction of a loot & schematic drop system for DE, similar to what exists for weaponsmiths and armorsmiths.
If that is all we were talking about then it would be fine (in fact I mentioned this much earlier in the discussion).
Basicly, yes thats what we are talking about .. how to improve CRAFTING FOR ALL PLAYERS. while this has broken down to "us vs. them" discusions that is not why TK started it ..I think the title got peeps off to a bad start .. but I "beleve" this thread was started to find a way that we are all happy. because if its not FUN FOR ALL of us its a bad thing. The pointI have been arguing (small crafting boost emphiss on SMALL)in my eyes would be fun for all asI dont see it takeing muchfrom factory crafter. many dont see it that way so on to the next idea. (I try to stay open minded all I ask is that others do the same.)
Malitevv wrote:
Here is a thought: I think this is along the lines of what Drashk was alluding to. put a special box on the crafting window for some items that is only available to the player if he is hand crafting the item. And then introduce special "crafting bonus" items that fit into that box. When a "bonus" item is placed into the box the player gets some small bonus to the stats of the item or out-of-the-ordinary opportunity to customize the item (like access to a unique color pallette in the latter case). But here is the thing: these "bonus items" are not loot rewards. They are crafting rewards. When a player hand crafts something, give them some small probability of achieving a "crafting reward" when they finish the object. That reward will be one of these "bonus items" and will then be placed into the player's inventory upon completion of the crafting process. In an ideal world there would be both common and rare versions of such items, each with different properties. Don't give this reward for "practicing", otherwise people will get hundreds of them while grinding. Offer it as a potential reward to the crafter only when he/she successfully completes a real item.
Wait a minute....you mean that the quailty of the slicing tool doesn't matter?
JavelinCatcher wrote:
(on a side note, I havn't seen someone get this fired up since caylin's thread on "slicing is random")
"FUNETUNING"
You want to create a market of 'rare' customized and one off items? give Master Artisan a +50 to 'general finetuning' and give all novice elite crafters a +50 ' finetuning' skill. General finetuning will stack with all other types.
Finetuning:
Similar to slicing in effect, finetuning can only be done on completed items (looted or otherwise), but using the crafting interface with the item as an ingredient. Maybe its possible to select a certain stat to improve, but rarety would be helped by making it random just like slicing.
The finetune process requires the same (high OQ?) resources for all items just in different amounts depending on the item's original schematic complexity and the item's "finetune rating". For every "finetune session" the finetune rating of the item will increase by +1. This rating will dramatically increase the amount of resources required for the next finetune session (think logarithmic).
Like all crafting a critical failure is possible, this could result in an increase of the item's finetune rating without and increase in stats (or maybe even a decrease, but id rather it didn't).
Upon success a random stat is increased by (10 + "finetuner's" finetune rating/10) percent.
10-15% for a non master artisan, 10-20% for a master artisan.
result:
- Spend extra skillpoints to make even better items.
- These are one off items as no 'finetune' can actively be repeated exactly the same way.
- Every crafter can do it, but a master artisan can do it better, making it a desirable box beyond mere swoops.
- Resources will be burned like no tomorrow with people finetuning their high-end items as high as they can afford. Leaving powercrafters with the best of the best at 100x the cost of the same item finetuned a little less by more economical crafters.
- People can choose to either have 100 more high end factory products on their vendors or use that res to finetune one and create that REALLY nice item.
Please respond 8)
Brennox wrote:
"FUNETUNING"
)
)But even -1 experimentation point is brutally harsh and would render factory runs of any item that uses experimentation largely unviable. It immediately caps all factory made goods at 90% quality. That's the sort of change that really would completely nerf factories, IMO.
Atan wrote:
And in my Opinion is it the easiest way to achieve this by giving schematics -1 or 2experimentation points.
Straker_Atrella wrote:
3. Hand crafting can be viewed from a sheer game balance point of view. Look at the cost of hand crafting versus the gain. If they are not balanced (or nearly so) then hand crafting needs to be fixed.
See here is where I disagree. Why should hand crafting be "balanced" with factory crafting? That is the same as saying Stim A's should be balancedwith D's, or that an E11 Rifle should be balanced with a T21. Why?
Hand crafting is a lower level skill that you use. In fact itALREADY get's used far more often, then other low level things. If you want to make Hand Crafting more fun, fine. Yet why should it be equal to factory crafting?
I beleave what is ment is not balanced with factories but balanced like factories.
in your example the t21 is a good gun very highbut that ham costs are high thats the trade off. now look at the E11 the ham is low but so is the damege
lets go fictional now. the point is hand crafting (for some) like a E11 with ham costsalothigher than the T21 .. its not fair to the guy that cant pickup the skills to get above the E11 cert.Inthis this case the E11 would need to be balanced in its own right and the T21 is something to look at to seewhat a example of balance is. Is lowering the ham on our fictional E11 a nerf to the T21 user?
no becouse the T21 is good in its own right and is still a good choice. but if on one hade seen the game like it is now and the unbalinced E11 was all the players had it would look like a nerf to the T21 user. would it not? he would argue the ham is lower on his higher damege gun becouse he is a "end game" combat profesion. but the fact is the E11 was not a"balanced" weapon and neededto be balanced for its users.This would not make it beter that the T21 just a valid choise for a lower damege weapon.
this does not make the two equel just balanced
maby this will help put things in prospective as the terms balanced and nerf seem to be taken as the same meening
Message Edited by babyblue_d on 09-15-2004 05:00 AM
Add: "....in the quantities that we saw them".
ArveMennderchukk wrote:
I'm not fantasizing -- TK admitted that a number of the corrs felt that having factory crates of the "BEST" stuff was something they wanted to do away with.
That's a key point. It wasn't just seeing the "best" stuff crated on a vendor. It was seeing an entire page of the best crated. The quantity availability (all but doing away with any practical 'best/rare' market) was the issue....not that factories were used in their creation.
/bow
Respectfully,
TheRealTK421 wrote:
Add: "....in the quantities that we saw them".
That's a key point. It wasn't just seeing the "best" stuff crated on a vendor. It was seeing an entire page of the best crated. The quantity availability (all but doing away with any practical 'best/rare' market) was the issue....not that factories were used in their creation.
/bow
Respectfully,
How can it be the best stuff if it didn't have rare loots? Couldn't have been armor. Couldn't have been weapons. Couldn't have been medic buffs. Must have been droids or food/drink.
Loot based crafting similar to armorsmiths/weaponsmiths would make the "true" top end droids (or whatever that "BEST" stuff was) impossible to create in large factory runs (limited serial drops).
Not surprisingly, the concensus that seems to have emerged in this thread to date is that the best way to add value to make crafting enjoyable without destroying fun for others would be to use a loot-based system.
At present, two proposals for how these loots could be obtained have been suggested. The standard creature loot drop and Mal's innovative "crafting discovery" loot drop.
Of the two, I have to say that I'm more interested in Mal's suggestion. However, I don't think that the two are mutually exclusive. Perhaps a schematic for "Droid Shield Generators" could be dropped by destroyed Droideka and "Experimental Droid Brain" component drop could emerge from Mal's suggested mechanic.
Either way, I think that the loot component proposal seems to have been generally accepted by all parties thus far in this discussion. Anything else that has been proposed has seemed to generate much contention (and should thus be a less likely candidate for consideration given that a palatable alternative seems to have emerged through concensus). Does anyone disagree with this?