Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Discussion: Hand-crafting vs. Factory-crafting (relating to Quality of product)
I'm fairly certain you're thinking like I am. I don't nessecerely want to give one method of crafting a "edge" in quality but if people demand hand crafting to produce a better good, the looted component is the way to go rather than trying to modify the entire core crafting system. But that's just my opinion.
Jenden wrote:
First off I have one question, how will a small bonus in hand crafting make factory crafting less fun. Fun is the core of the argument, this is a game, which is all about fun. So far I just haven't seen any reason why factory crafting would be less fun (if you call loading hoppers and stocking vendors fun) if there is a change in hand crafting. Will it be affected? sure, but then again you affect everything when you change anything, so that doesn't really have any bearing on the conversation.
Now, for those arguments that making hand crafted items slightly better will mean all good crafters have to handcraft, I'd like to know what happened to all the weaponsmith and armorsmith vendors out there. Last I checked there were loot drops that were significantly better than the factory made versions (order of magnitude better than what we're talking about for hand crafting) and yet people still buy regular weapons and armor. This is because of convenience and cost. There's always the scales of convenience and cost versus how much you really want that extra power. If vendor 1 has 200 top of the line combat droids on it and crafter2 could make you a combat droid with 4800 instead of 4500 HAM but it would take you 3 hours of searching to find him,most people would still go to vendor 1. If too many people tried to, then he couldn't fill all the orders and the wait might be bumped up to 8 hours, or the next day.
Now, as far as this artificial dichotimy goes, there's already a difference between hand crafting and factory crafting. Like it or not its a different mindset. I make all my droids on a custom order basis. This is the type of business I want to make, the fine-crafted specialty business. Its analogous to musical instruments. There are factories that make them en-bulk (but they lack the intuition of hand crafting) and there's the people who make them by hand. They both play music, the ones produced in a factory sell for less (they're a ton cheaper to make though) and sell in much higher quantity, and the hand crafted ones are sold at a slower pace for more (and are generally better). They are both viable different forms of business.
Yea, see up to this point was my argument. Then people started insisting that hand crafting "should be better" than factory items.
People have mentioned adding a common generic loot drop component that couldn't be used in factories and this gets a much better response. I ask why. The effect on the game dynamics and economy are identical to just raising hand crafting a little bit, the only difference whatsoever is it takes up more inventory space and brings in a middle man.
So then I said, if you want to increase the quality of a hand crafted item without hurting the factory producers you need to introduce some sort of component.
Message Edited by JavelinCatcher on 09-14-2004 09:09 PM
But what I proposed is basically exactly the way loot drops currently work, I'm just proposing that the loot be acquired as a result of crafting vs. as a result of fighting. Think of it as an "insight bonus" to crafting. I think if we are going to go for some generic sort of loot enhancement system for crafters it'd be nice to break our dependency upon acquiring those loots from combat players, or going out to "hunt" for them ourselves. What is so strange about building up some "crafting bonus" as a result of excessively crafting that I can then use to make one crafted item "a little better"? It certainly isn't any stranger than the idea that a combat player loots an item off a dead body that enables me to make one crafted item "a little better".
Straker_Atrella wrote:
I've read the ideas suggested here, some are ok. Mal, I really don't like your last one though. Simply because getting some "item" as a crafting bonus, just doesn't seem to make sense. Maybe a Badge or something, or a new title, such as "Master Droid Engineer Craftsman." Just not some weird item that falls out of nowhere. I would support better stats before I supported this.
I still think loot drop items are the answer. People enjoy finding loot, they bring that loot to the DE, the De makes a droid that may or may not be better then normal droids. It builds interaction, as well as hand crafting.
Message Edited by Malitevv on 09-14-2004 06:26 PM
Straker_Atrella wrote:
<SNIP>
*Hand Crafting vs Factory Crafting
Ahh yes, now this is the heart of the matter. The problem with this part of the discussion is there are 2 schools of thought.
1. Hand crafting is a lower form of crafting, you use it because you "want" to, or until you get factories.
2. Hand crafting is an "Art," you take pride in your work and "feel" it is better because it is hand crafted.
You forgot option number 3.
3. Hand crafting can be viewed from a sheer game balance point of view. Look at the cost of hand crafting versus the gain. If they are not balanced (or nearly so) then hand crafting needs to be fixed.
<snip>
- I support making Hand Crafting more "fun," yet I don't seea reason or need to make it "better" justto make it better. We already hand craft, all professions do to some extent.
What about making it better so that it's more balanced?
Well that became rather long. All I ask is that you rad the whole thing and not jsut the Yellow and Red
I feel sorry for anyone jumping into this thread late. Yikes it's alot of long posts and reading.
Drashk wrote:
This statement has pretty much made any arguement that you have forthwith null and void in my eyes. To me, this is a serious acusation that is being made that has no merit or baring on the discussion at hand. I think that you need to remove yourself from this discussion if you are going to be unable to grasp the fact that there is not some hidden conspiracy or DEV plot to alter the crafting system, or that TK is trying to push some agenda of his own design onto the Community.It may seem like I'm making a big deal out of this to some, however its comments like this that bite at every single person whom has ever dedicated themselves in hopes that he/she is able to make a difference for the Community that he/she represents. Its easy for anyone to sling an arrow at the Correspondent, when they are simply trying to strike up discourse, without ever thinking about the people that the arrow may hit.
/shake fist
I'm not fantasizing -- TK admitted that a number of the corrs felt that having factory crates of the "BEST" stuff was something they wanted to do away with.
This thread is ostensibly about making crafting more "fun" and yet it has all focused on adding advantages to not factory crafting.
I may not be Einstein, but I can put two and two together.
This smacks of a not-so-hidden agenda to nerf factories.
Whether you work yourself up into a righteous tizzy about me calling a spade a spade or not is totally up to you, but I think that people still have a right to speak their piece.
If me bringing to others' attention the not-obvious motivators of other participants is such an offense to you, then why not remove yourself from the discussion? Shaking your fist in rage or pounding your shoe on the table is hardly a substantive contribution.
Of course, given how Drashk is waving his fist in the background at me while he encourages the peasants to rustle up their torches and tinder, my endorsement of Straker probably doesn't help his cause much.
Nevertheless, if you won't listen to me, at least listen to what he has to say.
Arve, subtle innuendo's and accusations about hidden agendas and ulterior motives (not so subtle actually 
) are combative and disengenuous by their very nature.Such forms of "argument" are the stuff of dirty politics and are in the end hollow and meaningless. They serve no helpful purpose in any discussion or debate on any topic whatsoever. It doesn't matter what side of the argument your on. Its just wrong.
Message Edited by Malitevv on 09-14-2004 08:20 PM
Drashk was the one who loudly proclaimed that he was shaking his fist. I pointed out that TK had said that the corrs were talking about nerfing factories.
There is nothing subtle or hidden about any of this.
Rather than engaging in ad hominem attacks or accusations of ad hominem attacks, can we just stick to discussing the issues?
Ok first Mal,
Are you proposing that this item you get be something you can then use in later crafting? If that is this case, then that is different and I missed that. That would make sense then, you "discover" something while crafting, then use it later. I'm for that.
Tarne_Monter wrote:
Straker_Atrella wrote:
*Hand Crafting vs Factory Crafting
Ahh yes, now this is the heart of the matter. The problem with this part of the discussion is there are 2 schools of thought.
1. Hand crafting is a lower form of crafting, you use it because you "want" to, or until you get factories.
2. Hand crafting is an "Art," you take pride in your work and "feel" it is better because it is hand crafted.
You forgot option number 3.
3. Hand crafting can be viewed from a sheer game balance point of view. Look at the cost of hand crafting versus the gain. If they are not balanced (or nearly so) then hand crafting needs to be fixed.
- I support making Hand Crafting more "fun," yet I don't seea reason or need to make it "better" justto make it better. We already hand craft, all professions do to some extent.
What about making it better so that it's more balanced?
Well that became rather long. All I ask is that you rad the whole thing and not jsut the Yellow and Red
I feel sorry for anyone jumping into this thread late. Yikes it's alot of long posts and reading.
See here is where I disagree. Why should hand crafting be "balanced" with factory crafting? That is the same as saying Stim A's should be balancedwith D's, or that an E11 Rifle should be balanced with a T21. Why?
Hand crafting is a lower level skill that you use. In fact itALREADY get's used far more often, then other low level things. If you want to make Hand Crafting more fun, fine. Yet why should it be equal to factory crafting?
Straker_Atrella wrote:
Ok first Mal,
Are you proposing that this item you get be something you can then use in later crafting? If that is this case, then that is different and I missed that. That would make sense then, you "discover" something while crafting, then use it later. I'm for that.
ArveMennderchukk wrote:
I'm not trying to engage in subtle innuendos and oblique statements.
Drashk was the one who loudly proclaimed that he was shaking his fist. I pointed out that TK had said that the corrs were talking about nerfing factories.
There is nothing subtle or hidden about any of this.
Rather than engaging in ad hominem attacks or accusations of ad hominem attacks, can we just stick to discussing the issues?
I was referring to the fact that you persist in attempting to discredit TK by claiming he has a secret hidden agenda. There is nothing ad hominem about my pointing this out. I agree. Let's stick to the issues, stop accusing people of hidden agendas, and focus on what each other are actually saying.
Message Edited by Malitevv on 09-14-2004 10:16 PM
Message Edited by Malitevv on 09-14-2004 10:16 PM
You should listen very seriously to what Drashk posted above. He pretty much hits the nail squarely on the head.
You're coming at this like it's a done deal or a Dev-drivin intiative. Nothing could be further from the truth.
This isn't about to how to address power-crafters, casual/dedicated-crafters or 'dilettantes'. It's about how to possibly make the entire crafting system better/more-fun for all players across the board.
This doesn't mean a nerf to factory use (I use them too)
Again.............................................read what Drashk wrote above. He perty much nailed it.
/bow
Respectfully,
ArveMennderchukk wrote:
However, the proposal seems to have been driven by TK to focus instead on changing the fundamental mechanics to discourage or otherwise dissuade dedicated crafters.
I'd say that TK is playing Devil's Advocate with the suggestion of the Hand-crafted bonus, to simulate one of the ideas that was brought up on how to change the system. As he has stated before, he is simply trying to test the waters to see what peoples feedback would be on such a proposed system and he is doing a rather good job of it, since so many people have debated the idea in this tread. Its a tactic of a great Correspondent, to introduce something to the community and take up a side of the arguement, yet at the same time still have the ability to take down notes of everything that is said and pass along the general consenus of what the Community desires.
I think that too many people look at what a Correspondent has to say in his/her Community, while trying to see what people think about an idea, as an indication to what he/she will tell the DEVs or other Correspondents. To be a good Correspondent, one must be able to speak his/her opinion yet at the same time be able to report the wants and needs of the Community as a 'whole'. TK does a rather good job of this. If he didn't he, I wouldn't be here saying otherwise. His views stated here may or may not be his own. Either way, rest asured that he represents the community and not his own personal interests, when reporting information that he gathers.
Read some of TK's posts where he articulates that he feels the accumulation of good resources and component stockpiles to be wrong. I suspect that accumulation of loot and schematic stockpiles would be considered equally wrong by him.
Wrong is not the correct word to use for what TK is refering to. Stockpiling of resources in of itself isn't a bad thing. Its the ability to stockpile the huge sums of resources that we currently see, due to lot trading, that hurts the game in the long run. Over the next few months, we should see actions being taken to reduce the number of lot trades that we currently have. The first step in the process will be the elimination of Characters that have been inactive for periods over six months, due to account cancelations. This should start sometime in the next few weeks. This will help to level the playing field a little, but getting rid of static lots that have been used for such things as extra factories, harvesters, and even housing. Later on, we will more then likely see something that will limit the maximum number of lots that a person can have permissions for, which will reduce the number of these structures further.
Lot swapping is a pretty big issue, since it allows a person the ability to have a major advantage over those that use only their given 10 lots. Each server has at least 2-12 people who control 40 -100 harvesters, all with one account. This needs to change, to allow others the chance to compete in such a strangle hold market. Stockpiling of 100-500k units of a certain 'uber' resource isn't the target that TK refers to. Its the people that have 1-2 million units off all of the best resources, due to having 40-100 harvesters at their disposal that hurt the lower-end game. I know of a few people on my old server, Shadowfire, that could easily have close to 1 billion resources stacked away in a few houses and factories.
Right now, weaponsmiths have an extremely hard time selling anything because the devs, in some sort of insanity fit, decided to create DOT weapons and then make them only available as high end drops.
I agree that this was a huge mistake on the DEVs part. They have even admitted as much and have taken actions to bring all weapons back in line during the Combat Balance/Revamp. Don't be surprised if we see a major swing back to the crafted weapons that we know and love, plus maybe even a few more. We will have to wait and see how they are handled, but I can pretty much promise you that they won't be as 'uber' as they look now.