Droid Engineer Archive

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Drashk wrote:
The problem with this whole statement is that it is based off of emotion and the belief that people are using the system as was intended.

Multi-server lot trading was never a system design and is actually a huge flaw that was a left over from the Miner profession removal. The entire game is based upon sets of rules that are supposed to govern how a person can and can not do something within the confines of the game. These rules come in the form of programming. We have seen, on a few occasion, people finding loop holes in the rules and using these loop hopes to their advantage. These loop hopes could be in the form of something as 'innocent' as using Tunblers to gain Medical XP, or as serious as the Credit duping incidents. People having the ability to trade lots to other servers has made it so that in order to be viable competition with the 'industrialists' you must

1. have multiple accounts so that you have enough lots to support all of your harvesting needs
2. have the support structure of a Guild
3. be able to buy huge amounts of resources
4. swap lots with people on different servers

Out of the 4 options listed above, only the first 3 fit into the confines of how the game is supposed to function. The removal of the 4th option would not be done because of jealousy or to punish them. It would be done to place a rule that should have been instated after the Miner profession was removed. I think that the DEVs have made the mistake for having let this situation last as long as it has, however I'm not part of the development team, so its hard for me to say how easy a fix for this could be.

Just like the Jedi being able to gain XP on a roof top was addressed, so shall the lot swapping issue be addressed.

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I don't get it. I have worked hard (remembering that I'm a casual gamer) and have gotten some friends in game to lend me a lot here and a lot there (NOT cross-server). So a friend/customer that I frequently sell bounty hunter droids to has allowed me to place a couple factories on lots he doesn't use. Another friend who is a hunter has done the same. These are not cross-server trades and are built on real role-played friend relationships in-game. This permits me to use my remaining 6 lots to rotate harvesters onto resources that pop up while still being able to run factories on parts.

According to what you described, I will be punished when the "lot swapping issue" is addressed.

What have I done wrong? How is this horrible and unbalancing? Why are so many people biased against others who cooperate to produce a sum greater than its parts?

Does everyone want to solo this game?

There seems a very peculiar bias against those who work hard to build up crafting/mercantile conglomerates. It isn't easy to do something like that. I have nothing but admiration for the folks who can pull it off. I aspire to do that myself someday but know that my "casual gamer" status means I probably never will (much like the ridiculous FS crafting XP obstacles mean I will never be a Jedi).

Why is there this effort to crush the fun of others?

Why can't we instead consider solutions that add fun without being at someone else's expense.

I have never gotten a handout in this game. I started back in April and have built up my current business from scratch with my own two hands. In April I was hand sampling resources from the ground to build stuff. Eventually I was able to build personal harvesters. I started selling the stuff I painstakingly surveyed (with Surveying I) for 2 or 3 cpu on the bazaar. This was enough for me to expand and fill all my lots with personal harvesters. Then I realized I had overcommitted and didn't have enough revenue to keep all my harvesters running.... or even pick some of them up. After half my harvesters exploded, I had learned my lesson and grew my harvesting moderately in tune with my cashflow from resource sales. I roped my RL brother into it as well, and the two of us had an entire valley north of Mos Espa filled with our 20 personal harvesters.

Eventually, we both became master artisans. He later became a master weaponsmith and I became a master droid engineer.

Throughout that entire time, we were both able to sell more goods to our fellow newbies than we could craft.

Now that we have clientele that are no longer newbies, we both still have more orders than we can handle. I have a two-week backlog of droid orders. This has caused me to hunt down no less than 4 or 5 other master droid engineers to help carry the load.

According to many in this thread, this means that I'm some sort of exploiting conglomerate (or at least an aspiring/budding conglomerate).

From my perspective, I've been playing the game and succeeding as a dedicated crafter (keep in mind that my growth throughout the entire process I've described has been from the revenues I've made from crafting).

Why should solutions to add fun to the game be arbitrarily biased against those who work together?

Shouldn't we rather encourage crafters who want to collaborate?

I have to admit I am very confused by the perspectives expressed by both the current and past Droid Engineer correspondents. There seems to be a consistent bias against organized business within the game.

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Tarne_Monter wrote:
But as far as a crafting revamp of this type goes, that would be even harder. Some of it is already in place. Mostly from what I can see it's in Droids. Since what a droid can do is based off of the modules, then keeping track of what modules were originally used is pretty trivial. However, armor and weapons may be a bit harder to keep track. I don't really know since I've never really made many, but it may be a big deal to keep track of different components used for each weapon and or armor. If it doesn't already that's going to be a seriously huge database hit.

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Keep in mind that every crafted item has a schematic which describes the parts that went into making it. Even though each final crafted item doesn't necessarily store details on its constituent subcomponents (and almost certainly doesn't for DB reasons), the serial number of the item refers to the original schematic which does describe the subcomponents (and their serial numbers, schematic references).

So, although each item doesn't track what it's made out of, that information is obtainable because I suspect that for every crafted item instance that still exists in the game, the serial number refers to the schematic which was used to create it (including a hidden schematic for one-shot "prototype" items).

So disassembly just means a DB call to schematic and creation of the named resources/subcomponents described in the referenced schematic.

One suspects that the crafting system is designed this way because they had originally intended to support disassembly.

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ArveMennderchukk wrote:
According to what you described, I will be punished when the "lot swapping issue" is addressed.

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TheRealTK421 wrote:

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Malitevv wrote:

Here is a thought: I think this is along the lines of what Drashk was alluding to. put a special box on the crafting window for some items that is only available to the player if he is hand crafting the item. And then introduce special "crafting bonus" items that fit into that box. When a "bonus" item is placed into the box the player gets some small bonus to the stats of the item or out-of-the-ordinary opportunity to customize the item (like access to a unique color pallette in the latter case). But here is the thing: these "bonus items" are not loot rewards. They are crafting rewards. When a player hand crafts something, give them some small probability of achieving a "crafting reward" when they finish the object. That reward will be one of these "bonus items" and will then be placed into the player's inventory upon completion of the crafting process. In an ideal world there would be both common and rare versions of such items, each with different properties. Don't give this reward for "practicing", otherwise people will get hundreds of them while grinding. Offer it as a potential reward to the crafter only when he/she successfully completes a real item.

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Mal,

I really like something like this as an out-of-the-box idea as well.

If you will (or are interested), go with it some and let's see if it's got some legs.

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What exactly should I do with it? The basic idea is there, the remaining details are fairly obvious it seems to me....

I'd run with it, but not sure which way to run.

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ArveMennderchukk wrote:

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TheRealTK421 wrote:

Errr...how can I? I'm the one that started the thread.

(No offense, but...) Maybe you're missing the point of this entire thread/discussion.


Your stated purpose for the thread was to solicit input. If that input disagrees with one of your assumptions, you blithely ignore it. How can this not be missing the point?


I don't ignore....I 'drink in'. Which input are you stating that I'm ignoring (specifically) so that I can speak to or clarify where I'm coming from?

No one isn't being ignored here...if you think that's the case, it surely wasn't intended. Just give me a single bulleted item to speak to so I don't miss it.

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/bow

Respectfully,

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ArveMennderchukk wrote:

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Tarne_Monter wrote:
But as far as a crafting revamp of this type goes, that would be even harder. Some of it is already in place. Mostly from what I can see it's in Droids. Since what a droid can do is based off of the modules, then keeping track of what modules were originally used is pretty trivial. However, armor and weapons may be a bit harder to keep track. I don't really know since I've never really made many, but it may be a big deal to keep track of different components used for each weapon and or armor. If it doesn't already that's going to be a seriously huge database hit.

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Keep in mind that every crafted item has a schematic which describes the parts that went into making it. Even though each final crafted item doesn't necessarily store details on its constituent subcomponents (and almost certainly doesn't for DB reasons), the serial number of the item refers to the original schematic which does describe the subcomponents (and their serial numbers, schematic references).

So, although each item doesn't track what it's made out of, that information is obtainable because I suspect that for every crafted item instance that still exists in the game, the serial number refers to the schematic which was used to create it (including a hidden schematic for one-shot "prototype" items).

So disassembly just means a DB call to schematic and creation of the named resources/subcomponents described in the referenced schematic.

One suspects that the crafting system is designed this way because they had originally intended to support disassembly.

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Hmm, that could be the case. I was just trying to look at the worse case scenario. But since I haven't seen exactly how the JTL stuff and lightsaber stuff works I'm not completely sure. The JTL stuff appears to fit into a completely new category. But, I think the lightsaber stuff fits the model that you're thinking of the best. So the possibility for them to track the specific components instead of just the end stats, but the question remains if they actually do it already or not.

If they do already track all the releavent info, then this would work out quite well. Otherwise it's going to be some serious coding if something like this gets going.

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Tarne_Monter wrote:
Examples? Yes there are certain things that have been steered away from on this thread. Things that could easily go into other threads that won't bog down this one, such as "Is Factory Crafting balanced?" Feel free to start that thread. I honestly have no idea on that one. It appears to be balanced to me but I just don't know for sure.

Look, I'm very focused on what this thread is trying to accomplish. I'm all for making my chosen vocation (crafting) in SWG more fun. However, I think it is perfectly relevant to suggest that we look to create that fun in an additive fashion rather than by destructively taking away from someone else. By setting so-called "handcrafting" at odds with factory crafting, I think this is a big mistake. I listed a bunch of stuff just off the top of my head that could be done to make crafting more fun without negatively impacting factory use. I am strongly suggesting that we explore non-destructive avenues of increased fun. TK seems bent on nerfing factory use for some reason. I'm suggesting this is inappropriate. How is this off-topic?

Actually, I believe you are mistaken. Yes, perhaps the thread should be retitled. But in reality, most of the skewing of the discussion has been done by many people. But we've tried to keep it on target. And been doing a pretty good job I think.

I'm all for staying on topic. From my perspective, I'm very much on topic. Given how much response there has been to the points I've been trying to address (and from the folks dedicated to staying on topic), I think that my comments have been topical. If you are asserting that I'm straying from the topic, could you be more specific? How are the things I have been raising and suggesting not topical?

I think that you're misunderstanding what TK is trying to say. We're just TALKING nothing else. Nothing official, no alterior motives, just trying to get a feel for what the community wants. And how crafting as a whole can be made better.

Again, I'm all for the idea of making crafting more enjoyable. I'm vehemently against making crafting more enjoyable for one small minority at the expense of a great many others. The artificial distinction being drawn between handcrafting and factory crafting leads to solutions which create marginally more fun for some people at the cost of creating substantially less fun for a bunch of others. That is a distinctly suboptimal solution -- particularly when so many avenues for creating fun exist which do not negatively impact a set of crafters. How is this not topical?

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Malitevv wrote:

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TheRealTK421 wrote:

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Malitevv wrote:

Here is a thought: I think this is along the lines of what Drashk was alluding to. put a special box on the crafting window for some items that is only available to the player if he is hand crafting the item. And then introduce special "crafting bonus" items that fit into that box. When a "bonus" item is placed into the box the player gets some small bonus to the stats of the item or out-of-the-ordinary opportunity to customize the item (like access to a unique color pallette in the latter case). But here is the thing: these "bonus items" are not loot rewards. They are crafting rewards. When a player hand crafts something, give them some small probability of achieving a "crafting reward" when they finish the object. That reward will be one of these "bonus items" and will then be placed into the player's inventory upon completion of the crafting process. In an ideal world there would be both common and rare versions of such items, each with different properties. Don't give this reward for "practicing", otherwise people will get hundreds of them while grinding. Offer it as a potential reward to the crafter only when he/she successfully completes a real item.

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Mal,

I really like something like this as an out-of-the-box idea as well.

If you will (or are interested), go with it some and let's see if it's got some legs.

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What exactly should I do with it? The basic idea is there, the remaining details are fairly obvious it seems to me....

I'd run with it, but not sure which way to run.

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"We go .... THAT way!!!!" (insert Willow Brownie voice)

/emote points in the direction of the Post new Topic button.

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ArveMennderchukk wrote:

I'm vehemently against making crafting more enjoyable for one small minority at the expense of a great many theirs.

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Edit: That statement could very well be applied to the current situation in which we find ourselves with factory use v. hand-crafting.


Okay...I'm not espousing anything here, just letting you know how this all got started...

Some of the crafting Corrs. really wanted to address the situation of being able to go to a vendor and see THE best (and I mean THE best) of _________ available in giant, cratedquantities.

The reason, IMO, was that this didn't represent anything like a true, functional 'rares' market.



Okay...so...it came up, 'Howdo weaddress that?!?!'

...not an easy task, to be sure. It's not even a task that we're sure is needed but we like to explore all the optionsand leave no stone unturned.


So, factory use vis a vis quality was very obviously part of the discussion and the concept of how hand-crafting related to all this also cameto the fore.

I have no idea where thismay all lead. However, I know that our discussionsparked something that rang true for me. The crafting systems (factory, hand-crafting, 'quality'/rares markets, etc.) shouldn't be protectedfrom change like the Hope Diamond.


I think you are on topic with yourviewpoints. However, I need you to understand that I'm not putting a target on factoryusers nor am I saying that hand-crafters need some 'free checkers'. I'msaying that the whole thing...all of it, needs to be looked at as a whole.

We need to get some understanding and consensus on the core issues that keep the crafting systemfrom beingfun, economically healthy butalso thatdoesn't nerf one playstyle or another (a la the soloist combatant v. the grouped folk). We all should be able to enjoy what's there....we might just have to monkey with what's there (at a core level) to get there.


I don't pretend to have the answers or the magic bullet on running the perfect discussion onthese issues. But I wanted to start somewhere.....................................so here we are.


/bow

Respectfully,

Message Edited by TheRealTK421 on 09-14-2004 02:39 PM

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ArveMennderchukk wrote:

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Tarne_Monter wrote:
Examples? Yes there are certain things that have been steered away from on this thread. Things that could easily go into other threads that won't bog down this one, such as "Is Factory Crafting balanced?" Feel free to start that thread. I honestly have no idea on that one. It appears to be balanced to me but I just don't know for sure.

Look, I'm very focused on what this thread is trying to accomplish. I'm all for making my chosen vocation (crafting) in SWG more fun. However, I think it is perfectly relevant to suggest that we look to create that fun in an additive fashion rather than by destructively taking away from someone else. By setting so-called "handcrafting" at odds with factory crafting, I think this is a big mistake. I listed a bunch of stuff just off the top of my head that could be done to make crafting more fun without negatively impacting factory use. I am strongly suggesting that we explore non-destructive avenues of increased fun. TK seems bent on nerfing factory use for some reason. I'm suggesting this is inappropriate. How is this off-topic?

Yes, exactly. Setting handcrafting at odds with factory crafting is bad. And by that I mean that trying to make one fundamentally better than the other is bad. What we're trying to aim for is to make hand-crafting a viable alternative. Notfundamentally better, just different. Similiar with the way they're trying to do the CB/CR. You can be a pistoleer, or a rifleman, each has theirown place. Not just a single profession(or in this case crafting choice) that always beatsout the other.

This isn't about nerfing factories. And technically I suppose I'm wrong about it being off-topic. I just don't think that it's quite in the direction that we're trying to get the discussion to go.

Actually, I believe you are mistaken. Yes, perhaps the thread should be retitled. But in reality, most of the skewing of the discussion has been done by many people. But we've tried to keep it on target. And been doing a pretty good job I think.

I'm all for staying on topic. From my perspective, I'm very much on topic. Given how much response there has been to the points I've been trying to address (and from the folks dedicated to staying on topic), I think that my comments have been topical. If you are asserting that I'm straying from the topic, could you be more specific? How are the things I have been raising and suggesting not topical?

I'll work on that one. See above.

I think that you're misunderstanding what TK is trying to say. We're just TALKING nothing else. Nothing official, no alterior motives, just trying to get a feel for what the community wants. And how crafting as a whole can be made better.

Again, I'm all for the idea of making crafting more enjoyable. I'm vehemently against making crafting more enjoyable for one small minority at the expense of a great many others. The artificial distinction being drawn between handcrafting and factory crafting leads to solutions which create marginally more fun for some people at the cost of creating substantially less fun for a bunch of others. That is a distinctly suboptimal solution -- particularly when so many avenues for creating fun exist which do not negatively impact a set of crafters. How is this not topical?

Technically, I don't think we're going to be able to make everyone happy. But that aside, I think we can avoid what you're suggesting.

And for clarification what I'm viewing/labeling as off-topic is when people start to focus on factory crafting vs. hand-crafting in a "There can be only one" type of way. I think that we need both. Equally. And like I said before from what I can see factory carfting looks balanced from the cost/reward standpoint; however, hand crafting does not look balanced from that viewpoint. From my understanding that's what we're discusing. But you are right, we do need to keep it in perspective so we don't accidentally make one better than another. Sorry if I went a little overboard, I didn't mean to. Sometimes hearing "don't nerf factories" over and over again from many peoplemakes one want to scream, "I'm not trying to nerf factories".

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TheRealTK421 wrote:
I don't ignore....I 'drink in'. Which input are you stating that I'm ignoring (specifically) so that I can speak to or clarify where I'm coming from?

No one isn't being ignored here...if you think that's the case, it surely wasn't intended. Just give me a single bulleted item to speak to so I don't miss it.

I've lost count of how many times I've explicitly said that creating an artificial distinction between "handcrafting" and factory crafting puts those two things at odds with each other in such a way that it biases any potential solution to come at the cost of one or the other. In connection with that, I have said that the potential beneficiaries of such an either/or rob Peter-to-pay-Paul scenario should be identified so that it is clear who Dennis Moore is robbing and to whom he is giving lupins.

Mmm....babies. They taste like chicken, ya know?

I *knew* it. I always suspected TK was the reason that we don't see Ewoks on other planets

Perhaps "choice" wasn't exactly the word to use. The basic premise here is what reason would a Master level crafter have (from a risk vs. reward standpoint) to choose hand-crafting. For DEs, the reasons, such as they are currently, simply aren't compelling enough IMO. If you're an MDE, what might be some 'choice' (risk vs. reward) for deciding to..or needing to...hand-craft something in relation to its quality?

My assertion is that this is the wrong way to look at it. If our objective is to add more fun, why do we have to nerf factory use to add additional features to handcrafting? Why can't we look to add fun in a way that doesn't adversely impact something else?

Also, bear in mind, this isn't just a DE thing...I'd like to see how it could apply to all professions.

In every case that I have been describing, even though I may have used droid engineering as an example (for obvious reasons I hope), I have been considering this as it applies to ALL crafting. My objections are being made with that clearly in mind.

What I did say was "wrong" was that EVERY player can relatively easily obtain the clear, best item of a particular type. That means we have no real, functional 'rares' market to speak of. Things that are THE best simply do not stand out as such within the markets we have now.

They can? Where's my AV-21? My Mandalorian armor? My DE-10 pistol with top end krayt tissues? If you know an easy way to get these things, let me in on your secret.

This isn't just about droid crafting. It's more about why/when/how hand-crafting would be a choice that would better balance in terms of risk vs. reward, really at the Master level but perhaps at all levels as well. I'm not saying we need to disconnect anything here...instead that things be inter-related in a way that's fun, makes sense and leads to better overall markets/economies.

I'm not sure how many more times in this discussion I will have to continue trying to make the same damn point over and over again, but here goes again: I am suggesting that it is absolutely wrong-headed to artificially separate handcrafting from factory crafting. This may increase fun for some subset of crafters but will dramatically decrease fun for another set of crafters. If the objective is fun, there are many avenues that can be explored which do not cause this negative outcome.

Really? Did that come in with publish 10?

I'm pretty sure I'm hip on all this, man. I don't need the crafting lesson, thanks.

Look, I've been trying to earnestly address this issue throughout the thread and you have either ignored the point I have been trying to make or have sarcastically made fun of me on multiple occasions. What kind of behavior is that?

Running things in a factory can and should have its place.

Hand-crafting / prototyping can and should have its place.

Right now, at the Master level, hand-crafting means exactly zilch for a good portion of products vis a vis a viable quality/'rares' market. At the same time, hand-crafting could be soooo much more rewarding and fun. I'm just trying to explore what kind of options are out there for such core issues.

WHY? Why should handcrafting be made more fun at the EXPENSE of factory crafting? Why does it have to be addressed in that fashion? Why can't we look at other ways to make crafting more fun? I've already listed a bunch in this thread (after market mods, disassembly repair, component slicing, etc).

The fact that you keep pushing this despite attempts to get you to actually identify WHY and for WHOM this artificial distinction is being created begins to beg the question I raised earlier about what constituency is being served.

Not in opposition, no. Simply as a choice. Both choices can and should present valid economic possibilities (hopefully to further a better market for products, specifically relating to quality and getting THE best ________).

Why? Why do we have to alter the crafting system so that handcrafting is an alternative to factory crafting rather than part of the continuous process of crafting? Why do we have to forcibly enrich handcrafting at the cost of factory crafting? Why do we have to do this? Why does this perspective you are pushing have to be accepted meekly? Why cannot the motives behind it, the constituency served by it be identified? How many times in this thread have I called you out to do just that and you have not yet answered? WHY?

And I've already admitted that I've not been able to really wrap my head around how to present said discussion in a way that gets to the heart of what I hope we're trying to talk about here. I knew that this would be a yucky topic going in...but I wanted to get the ball rolling somehow. Over time, I will very likely be able to open a thread that frames the discussion and whatnot better.

So, you're saying that hand-crafting has to lead in a linear fashion to the factory game.......forever?

That this is pretty much how any crafter will have to compete to enjoy their experience and consider crafting rewarding?

I'm sorry.....I don't find running factories something that makes me get really excited about the process of crafting or the results. Do we need them? Absolutely.


Here we begin to touch on the constituency your proposal benefits. Because you don't really like the process of using factories, you are trying to find a way to cut them out of being a part of crafting. This can only serve to benefit the "dilettante crafter" I described earlier.

Can hand-crafting be made better, more rewarding and a viable playstyle in which to run a business at some elite level?

....that remains to be seen. And, it's part and parcel to why I opened up this can of crazed durnis.

Why do we have to establish handcrafting as a separate line of viable crafting at the elite level? Why does that need to be done? Who does it benefit? Is the objective to increase fun for all crafters? Or is the objective to increase fun of some crafters at the expense of others?


We need to nail down the problem before we can start talking solutions.

Here we absolutely agree. I argue that you have not been straightforward in identifying who this benefits and why. That is part of framing the problem. How do we even know there is a problem if we don't know who it is a problem for?

But I'm part of that "large percentage" that uses factories a LOT...so....what then?

I'm ignoring my own interests for the purpose of helping those that fall outside of that?

....come on.

That's just it. I'm suggesting that you don't like using factories and represent a group that doesn't like using factories. Thus you want to reduce or eliminate their role in the game.

I don't ignore any constituency. Everyone's views have equal weight. What I hope to explore is if for hand-crafters and factory user can get a more rewarding experience (that's fun) and can be an economically viable way to run a biz. As an addition, I think it would be economically healthy for the game if finding/owning the best _________ meant something (for all products, not just droids).
Right now, it doesn't.

So if the objective is to make things more fun for everyone, why can't we explore that space rather than setting up an artificial distinction between handcrafting and factory crafting?

Pssst....maybe I'm playing Devil's Advocate, hmmm?

Pssst... or maybe you're pushing a hidden agenda, hmmm?

If I 'stand' for Factory users, I end up biasing that way.

If I 'stand' for hand-crafters, same deal.

I understand that in some respect, I can't win. That's not why this thread exists. It exists to discuss what, if anything, can be done to better the crafting experience (factory and hand-crafting) for anyone.

This is sorta like trying to talk about how to ensure that soloists vs. grouped playstyles can both have fun and enjoy the combat game. True, it's not apples v. apples...but you get the point.


I'm arguing that it is unnecessary to 'stand' for either handcrafters or factory crafters unless you intend to set that up as an artificial distinction and benefit one at the cost of the other.

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ArveMennderchukk wrote:

Pssst... or maybe you're pushing a hidden agenda, hmmm?

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This statement has pretty much made any arguement that you have forthwith null and void in my eyes. To me, this is a serious acusation that is being made that has no merit or baring on the discussion at hand. I think that you need to remove yourself from this discussion if you are going to be unable to grasp the fact that there is not some hidden conspiracy or DEV plot to alter the crafting system, or that TK is trying to push some agenda of his own design onto the Community.

It may seem like I'm making a big deal out of this to some, however its comments like this that bite at every single person whom has ever dedicated themselves in hopes that he/she is able to make a difference for the Community that he/she represents. Its easy for anyone to sling an arrow at the Correspondent, when they are simply trying to strike up discourse, without ever thinking about the people that the arrow may hit.

/shake fist