Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Discussion: Hand-crafting vs. Factory-crafting (relating to Quality of product)
TheRealTK421 wrote:
I don't want the discussion to be about the "necessity" to handcraft. Instead, how to get it better/cooler/more fun so that there's reasons to hand-craft (even if it might not affect stats). It still can be on the table for a core design 'pass' and/or overhaul (and so should factory use as well).
TK, again with all due respect, I think you're still missing the point.
When you say "I don't want the discussion to be about the necessity to handcraft.... Instead, how to get it better/cooler/more fun so that there's reasons to hand-craft" you ARE talking about the necessity to handcraft.
If it is better to handcraft, you have just completely dispensed with factory crafting.
You have just reaffirmed the point I've been making -- namely, that while saying you want to be inclusive and just be "talkin", you are consistently pushing the perspective that handcrafting should be better than using factories.
It is exactly this perspective which finds so much disagreement.
In short: this "handcrafting" issue is a red herring whose only real purpose can be to deflect interest/criticism by appealing to the dilettante.
The frustrating part of this entire exchange is that you either aren't listening to the concerns expressed or you are wilfully choosing to ignore this disagreement.
To re-iterate something I said before -- rather than dissipate the energies of passionate crafters across all servers on fighting for or against the railroading of this new "handcrafting" concept, why can't dev and community resources be devoted to fixing the GIGANTIC SLEW of broken stuff in crafting?
Wouldn't that dramatically increase crafter satisfaction?
The way it appears to me is that any attempt to blithely scrap and reforge the entire crafting system (which is implied by this "investigation" of handcrafting vs factories), why can't our existing bugs be addressed?
To me, this sounds like something that the devs presented to the corrs at the summit and the waters are being tested through corrs like TK.
I suggest that as the crafting community we should unite in communicating back to the devs that they should stop revamping and start repairing.
After all, every new system that the devs have introduced to date has only ADDED to the number of bugs we suffer. Why can't development resources be pointed at fixing the broken stuff we already have?
In short, this "handcrafting" issue appears to be nothing more than a red herring designed to deflect interest from real issues by generating more heat than light. The only supporters of this "handcrafting" initiative really just want to toy with some new dilettante novelty rather than substantively address fundamental crafter issues.
Divide and Conquer. Tail wags the dog.
By the above definition of "casual gamer" vs "powergamer" I am myself a casual gamer.
I only have enough time to log in for an hour, maybe two, per day... maybe twice that on weekends. Clearly, I don't have the time to be a "powergamer".
With the limited time I do have, I find factories absolutely indispensable. Rather than spending all my time to hand grind out a few subassemblies a day and maybe make a droid a week, I can over several weeks time build up a small inventory of 25 of these parts and 50 of those other parts. With this small inventory I can custom craft droids to meet my customer demands.
Clearly, then, I am not the thousands-of-droids-per-vendor powergamer. I must be a casual gamer.
However, factories are an indispensable and absolutely desirable part of my play.
This leads me to suspect that the minority initiative to improve "handcrafting" which purports to serve "casual gamers" does not actually do that.
I would suggest that it instead serves an entirely different class of crafter.
I submit that there are three classes of crafter. The "dedicated crafter powergamer", the "dedicated crafter casual gamer", and the "dilettante crafter".
Both of the dedicated crafters (power & casual) work hard to focus on their beloved crafting profession. Whatever time and resources they have, they dedicate to being the best possible crafter they can be. On the other hand, the dilettante crafter may or may not be a casual gamer or a powergamer. What they are, however, is only marginally dedicated to being a crafter. They don't bother hunting for the best resources they can get, they don't spend effort stockpiling parts and resources to the best of their ability and budget... they just craft periodically for friends and guildmates.
The only constituency that this "handcrafting" measure could benefit is these "dilettante crafters".
I would argue that this category of crafter is not particularly dedicated to crafting in the first place -- so why should the entire crafting profession be twisted and destroyed to serve their desires rather than those who work and play passionately within the crafting game?
It is a gross dis-service.
To pander to a dilettante minority at the cost of hurting and alienating dedicated passionate crafters of both casual- and power- gaming types is to destroy the depth of this game for flash-in-the-pan cheap thrills.
Dilettantes enjoy periodic crafting to receive the lauds of their peers for providing an amusing gift.
They do not even participate in the economy! Typically their efforts are for charity and the enjoyment of helping their peers.
To change the entire crafting system and make this sort of niche charity crafting the only viable way to be a crafter means to wantonly destroy the underlying economic system of the game.
I suggest that any attempt to move forward in this discussion should first VERY CLEARLY define exactly who is expected to be benefited by any changes.
When comparing the beneficiary of this proposed "handcrafting" change (the dilettantes) to the beneficiaries of a "bug-fixing" change (dedicated crafters), I think that the relative merits of each become far more clear.
I would love the introduction of a loot & schematic drop system for DE, similar to what exists for weaponsmiths and armorsmiths.
If that is all we were talking about then it would be fine (in fact I mentioned this much earlier in the discussion).
However, the proposal seems to have been driven by TK to focus instead on changing the fundamental mechanics to discourage or otherwise dissuade dedicated crafters. Read some of TK's posts where he articulates that he feels the accumulation of good resources and component stockpiles to be wrong. I suspect that accumulation of loot and schematic stockpiles would be considered equally wrong by him.
Another caveat with moving to a loot drop system for high level droid crafting is the cautionary tale of where that ended up for weaponsmiths.
Right now, weaponsmiths have an extremely hard time selling anything because the devs, in some sort of insanity fit, decided to create DOT weapons and then make them only available as high end drops.
This means that serious warriors generally are only interested in loot drop weapons because of the overpowering effects of DOT.
How this could have been considered sane, I have no idea.... but a gigantic number of weaponsmiths are utterly demoralized because nobody other than low-level noobs is very interested in what they can craft.
To my mind, it makes sense to have loot drop components and schematics that can be used to craft superior items.... but it is a thoroughly bankrupt and foolhardy thing to have superior loot drop end-user items. This essentially cuts crafters entirely out of the equation because combat types would much prefer to keep killing to get a good loot drop weapon to actually interacting with crafters to get a weapon.
Message Edited by Malitevv on 09-14-2004 11:34 AM
Malitevv wrote:
Here is a thought: I think this is along the lines of what Drashk was alluding to. put a special box on the crafting window for some items that is only available to the player if he is hand crafting the item. And then introduce special "crafting bonus" items that fit into that box. When a "bonus" item is placed into the box the player gets some small bonus to the stats of the item or out-of-the-ordinary opportunity to customize the item (like access to a unique color pallette in the latter case). But here is the thing: these "bonus items" are not loot rewards. They are crafting rewards. When a player hand crafts something, give them some small probability of achieving a "crafting reward" when they finish the object. That reward will be one of these "bonus items" and will then be placed into the player's inventory upon completion of the crafting process. In an ideal world there would be both common and rare versions of such items, each with different properties. Don't give this reward for "practicing", otherwise people will get hundreds of them while grinding. Offer it as a potential reward to the crafter only when he/she successfully completes a real item.
Snikrop wrote:
TheRealTK421 wrote:
Snikrop wrote:
You're sounding more and more like a dev these days
For the record...I've already been(and still am) something of a 'dev' (software product development/sales/support). Just not for SWG.
What's that mean?
/bow
Respectfully,
Specificly, doin' the SOE dance, and saying that it's "wrong" for everyone to have the best there is out there.
I happen to believe it is...I did before I became blue and before I started the game. Having THE <insert uber item here> in the game should be something of which people can be proud. That's held in reserve for THE moment it's most needed. That it's treated with care...and simply rare. Which means not widely and easily attainable. I'd still think this were I playing a game that wasn't SWG but still had some kind of player-driven market. Sometimes, I happen to think the players just drive the market in bad ways (so much so that it can bend/break in places). So....it needs some lovin'.
It'd seem to me that a root cause of this is an underdeveloped crafting process that isn't as fun as it could be.
Careful..you're kinda making my point about looking far deeper into hand-crafting (why). I suppose that means the real discussion here isn't just about factory use vs. hand-crafting (as it relates to distribution, as was pointed out) but one of...."Why isn't hand-crafting fun (or as fun as it should be)?" I'm totally up for starting that thread/discussing and dropping this one perty much. I goes much closer to the true spirit of what I wanted to get from this discussion (both for DEs and for all crafters).
In general "grinding" seems to be acceptable, and admittedly somewhat unavoidable, in an MMO, but the current crafting process isn't "a game."
Getting it much closer to a fun game would make it less of a grind though. I think we can all agree it's good to consider this strongly, especially with the official demise of holo-FS-grinding.
The move to nearly 100% factory crafted goods is not "wrong," it's the only sane thing to do unless you are really into S&M and carpal tunnel.
Mmmm.....no, not wrong, per se. Just could be better on thehealthof the larger economy, that's all. To fit better into the entire scheme of a marketplace in SWG. Factory goods have their place. We all know that. Every MDE knows that. I use factories a lot...I needs 'em too. However, I'm still willing to look at whatever needs be done to see something better come from the interaction of:
- hand-crafting to get to Master (cause you really do need to be there to compete now...it's just gonna be that way for the life of the game, folks).
- using factories for a valid/needed purpose that can both feed the economy with products but not flood any market/product that's THE (stress: absolute) best. If that can happen with crates...the issue of hand-crafting as it affects creation of a functioning 'rares'.
- hand-crafting at a more elite level game (yes, FS crafting will affect us all at some point. To what degree...it's too soon to say).
game
noun
1. An activity providing entertainment or amusement;
I can think of very few folk who describe the actual process of crafting as entertaining or amusing beyond the first fifty items. In the current system you pretty much have to be a stats/numbers geek to really have fun, let alone call it a "game."
That's true to some degree.You don't have to be a HUGE numbers geek to be a good DE and enjoy the game (configuration / harvester/factory mgmt, resource 'game', etc.). The actual process of hand-crafting can and should be made better. Heck, I very much would like to see the way factories are handled get a good 'pass' too. The process is...in some ways..rather cold. They should both be on the the table for any kind of low-level/core design change. That's the whole reason I made the thread...to bring it all to light.
Organizing the crafted items, and dealing with the sale of said items, may be slightly more of a merchant issue so I'm not address that when I say it's not a game.
I can sort of agree with this. Merchants really need to be a bigger/better part of the distribution chain. So...shouldn't they have need to run auctions of really super-level items/goods?That is one more better reason to make sure that there's a rares market and affecting how hand-crafting and factories play into that goes very much to that possibility occurring.
The process for crafting should be as fun as PvE combat, and hopefully PvP. The reward for hand crafting you've suggested is a higher potential stat value. I like this idea, so much so that I suggested similar things for new crafters to lessen the desire to grind blindly to master before ever unchecking the "practice" button. I posted across a number of the crafter forums: Check out the posts at the bottom of my tracker:
The weaponsmiths gave me the most feedback, but it was mostly "nice idea but it won't help" or "This change doesn't sodomize non-masters. It is therefore doomed to failure."
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=weaponsmith&message.id=40338#M40338
The details of whatever would be worked out later, I'm sure. What's clear that's needed first is a more core level discussion of the issues so that we can get to THE solution (or something as close as possible).
Any more posts on the Revamp docs over in the Corr forums?
What revamp docs?
/bow
Respectfully,
After all, the entire crafting system originally had the idea of breaking end products down into their constituent parts...
If small time crafters could take an end product (say, an R3 harvesting droid), pull out the harvesting clusters, pull the harvest modules out of the clusters, add a storage module to the cluster, replace the clusters in the droid...
Then they would have just crafted a custom part for the droid (the storage module), and added a high degree of value to a droid that may well have been crafted by a "dedicated powergamer".
This would be a valuable game system for many crafters.
A rifleman might buy a decent T-21 but then later want to add a max range bonus scope. He could go to a niche "handcrafter" who could disassemble the T-21, add his specialty scope, put it back together and return to the rifleman.
This kind of system could actually benefit the smaller crafter in two ways -- they could competitively provide the customization services on the far end... and people would also be more willing to buy a less powerful T-21 if they knew they could hunt down a better stock or scope for it later.
We know that the game system can support this kind of "breakdown" mechanism because it is in place for both (A) jedi lightsabers, and (B) JTL spacecraft.
Further, this kind of system would be EVEN BETTER if a "wear system" were implemented. If wear was either (A) tracked by subassembly, or (B) during a disassembly was tied or allocated to subassemblies, then "real" repairs could be done on droids, guns, you name it.
For example, presuming a "wear system" were implemented and someone's favorite droid were getting worn out, a droid engineer could disassemble the droid and tell the customer "Oh yeah, these motive systems wear out all the time on the R3 model", replace the motive system with a brand spanking new one, re-assemble the droid and have some of the wear level reduced ("Yeah, I could have reduced your wear a lot more, but it would have involved replacing not just the motor but the sensors and those composite armor segments. This sucker has been shot at a lot. You still have a lot of life left on those parts. What? You want the whole droid refurbished? You know that means I would just be basically building a new droid around your old service modules, right? Okay! You're the customer!")
Further, droid combat modules should have multiple levels and melee vs ranged types. Based on combat module level and type, a droid could then have weaponsmith weapons loaded in ("What? You want dual T-21's on that LE combat droid? Holey cow! Well, you realize that I have to get top end models from a weaponsmith right? Oh! You have a couple Krayt tissue T-21's you want to use? You know when I put them in these modules, I am basically permanently converting them for droid use which means removing the trigger assemblies, etc, right? Okay! You're the customer!").
Finally, droid components should be sliceable ("What? You want guns on a droid? You know that the Empire declared that illegal right? Well, okay, I can do it. I know a slicer who can convert general socket clusters to combat socket clusters for mounting in droids...")
Wouldn't these kinds of suggestions add the sort of gameplay fun in a "hands-on" fashion without having to destroy factory crafting?
Why do we have to consider options which destroy existing forms of play? Why can't we explore the above kind of additive play?
Finally, to address one of Drashk's statements -- even though I am "only" a casual crafter (though dedicated), I don't feel threatened by the gigantic crafting conglomerates with cross-server trades.
In fact, on multiple occasions I have been able to make friendly deals with them and be a feeder supplier!
Whether that means that I'm crafting crated bounty hunter droids and naming them after the bigger crafter or supplying mass part runs of electronics modules, harvest modules, whatever, the fact is that those big conglomerates couldn't exist without superhuman effort on somebody's part.
Why destroy what those industrialists have worked so hard to achieve?
Rather than feeling jealousy towards them, I am awed and inspired.
While some people may look at the terrific effort expended to become a Jedi and admire those who have accomplished it, I look at the terrific effort expended to become a gigantic crafting industrialist and admire those who have accomplished it.
You do not become a giant crafter like that without extremely dedicated effort.
Why punish them? Is it petty jealousy?
Just like Jedi is the ultimate end-game for a combatmonger, massive industrialist status is the endgame for a dedicated crafter!
Malitevv wrote:
Here is a thought: I think this is along the lines of what Drashk was alluding to. put a special box on the crafting window for some items that is only available to the player if he is hand crafting the item. And then introduce special "crafting bonus" items that fit into that box. When a "bonus" item is placed into the box the player gets some small bonus to the stats of the item or out-of-the-ordinary opportunity to customize the item (like access to a unique color pallette in the latter case). But here is the thing: these "bonus items" are not loot rewards. They are crafting rewards. When a player hand crafts something, give them some small probability of achieving a "crafting reward" when they finish the object. That reward will be one of these "bonus items" and will then be placed into the player's inventory upon completion of the crafting process. In an ideal world there would be both common and rare versions of such items, each with different properties. Don't give this reward for "practicing", otherwise people will get hundreds of them while grinding. Offer it as a potential reward to the crafter only when he/she successfully completes a real item.
Mal,
I really like something like this as an out-of-the-box idea as well.
If you will (or are interested), go with it some and let's see if it's got some legs.
/bow
Respectfully,
ArveMennderchukk wrote:
Why do we have to consider options which destroy existing forms of play? Why can't we explore the above kind of additive play?
EXCELLENT IDEAS:I like them and now your thinking like us... how can it be made better. This idea is how it should be.
Why punish them? Is it petty jealousy?
again its not "my" aimto support something thatpunishes any oneI know it may sound that way but its not andI think TK feels the same.
Ithink both ideas that have come up have been examples of how hand crafting can be made better (than it is now) and still make factory crafting a good choice too.
the point is its been said that factory crafting is the "end game"
why should it have to be?
can we not deal with two forms of "end game" for the same profesion?
Message Edited by babyblue_d on 09-14-2004 01:30 PM
ArveMennderchukk wrote:
Finally, to address one of Drashk's statements -- even though I am "only" a casual crafter (though dedicated), I don't feel threatened by the gigantic crafting conglomerates with cross-server trades.
In fact, on multiple occasions I have been able to make friendly deals with them and be a feeder supplier!
Whether that means that I'm crafting crated bounty hunter droids and naming them after the bigger crafter or supplying mass part runs of electronics modules, harvest modules, whatever, the fact is that those big conglomerates couldn't exist without superhuman effort on somebody's part.
Why destroy what those industrialists have worked so hard to achieve?
Rather than feeling jealousy towards them, I am awed and inspired.
While some people may look at the terrific effort expended to become a Jedi and admire those who have accomplished it, I look at the terrific effort expended to become a gigantic crafting industrialist and admire those who have accomplished it.
You do not become a giant crafter like that without extremely dedicated effort.
Why punish them? Is it petty jealousy?
Just like Jedi is the ultimate end-game for a combatmonger, massive industrialist status is the endgame for a dedicated crafter!
The problem with this whole statement is that it is based off of emotion and the belief thatpeople are using the system as was intended.
Multi-server lot trading was never a system design and is actually a huge flaw that was a left over from the Miner profession removal. The entire game is based upon sets of rules that are supposed to govern how a person can and can not do something within the confines of the game. These rules come in the form of programming. We have seen, on a few occasion, peoplefinding loop holes in the rules and using these loop hopes to their advantage. These loop hopes could be in the form of something as'innocent' as usingTunblers to gainMedical XP, or as serious as the Credit duping incidents.People having the ability to tradelots to other servers has made it so thatin order tobe viable competition with the'industrialists' you must
- have multiple accounts so that you have enough lots to support all of your harvesting needs
- have the support structure of a Guild
- be able to buy huge amounts of resources
- swap lots with people on different servers
Out of the 4 options listed above, only the first 3 fit into the confines of how the game is supposed to function. The removal of the 4th option would not be done because of jealousy or to punish them. It would be done to place a rule that should have been instated after the Miner profession was removed. I think that the DEVs have made the mistake for having let this situation last as long as it has, however I'm not part of the development team, so its hard for me to say how easy a fix for this could be.
Just like the Jedi being able to gain XP on a roof top was addressed, so shall the lot swapping issue be addressed.
TheRealTK421 wrote:
ArveMennderchukk wrote:
TheRealTK421 wrote:
I don't want the discussion to be about the "necessity" to handcraft. Instead, how to get it better/cooler/more fun so that there's reasons to hand-craft (even if it might not affect stats). It still can be on the table for a core design 'pass' and/or overhaul (and so should factory use as well).TK, again with all due respect, I think you're still missing the point.
Errr...how can I? I'm the one that started the thread.
(No offense, but...) Maybe you're missing the point of this entire thread/discussion.
Your stated purpose for the thread was to solicit input. If that input disagrees with one of your assumptions, you blithely ignore it. How can this not be missing the point?
When you say "I don't want the discussion to be about the necessity to handcraft.... Instead, how to get it better/cooler/more fun so that there's reasons to hand-craft" you ARE talking about the necessity to handcraft.
No. I don't want hand-crafting to be a "necessity". I would personally prefer to see it as a viable choice, however. That is something that, frankly, doesn't exist currently (with respect to 'quality', etc.).
This is highly misleading. By stating in a mild-mannered fashion that this should be a "viable choice" you present your point of view in such a way that disagreeing with a base assumption is by definition "unreasonable". This is akin to me saying that eating babies should be a "viable choice". Just because I make an assertion in reasonable sounding terms does not make the assertion reasonable. I am disagreeing with your assertion that there should be a disconnect between "handcrafting" and just droid crafting. At present, handcrafting is the mechanism by which one prototypes factory schematics. These are called "prototypes" when you don't create a schematic out of them for a reason. By asserting that only creating these prototypes should be a viable alternative to running things in a factory, you set up an artificial dichotomy in a previously continuous process. By proposing this as an "alternative" and creating this dichotomoy, you essentially set handcrafting in opposition to factory crafting. This is not a natural distinction -- it is one you have explicitly made by framing the discussion. I am stating my opinion that this is a false distinction and false dichotomy. I am suggesting that this is absolutely a fundamentally wrong way to approach the problem. As long as you choose to wilfully ignore this, you are choosing to intentionally exclude a large percentage of your constituency. This seems like it turns you from being an impartial arbiter into a biased partisan.
If it is better to handcraft, you have just completely dispensed with factory crafting.
Bettering hand-crafting doesn't have to signal an end to factory use.....far from it. They need to be considered in relation to each other and the larger marketplace so that each option is more fun, more viable and 'inclusive'. As was stated earlier by Snikrop....the crafting system isn't as much fun/entertaining as I think we'd all like it to be.Part of this discussion goes very much into changing that. I'm reading some number of DEs that would seem to support some sort of core changes that would actually make hand-crafting FUN...and not a grind./bow
Is it wrong for us to even discuss such a thing? I sure hope not...cause it means we have to live with grind hand-crafting for the duration. I don't think any of us wants that if the door could ever be opened to changing it.
I'm not averse to discussing this issue (isn't that what I've been doing?), I'm just averse to having the discussion steered away from certain perspectives. By couching it in the way you have, you have artificially excluded certain parts of the discussion to focus on other parts. I'm suggesting that the focus you have given the discussion is inappropriate.
You have just reaffirmed the point I've been making -- namely, that while saying you want to be inclusive and just be "talkin", you are consistently pushing the perspective that handcrafting should be better than using factories.
Not "better"....simply a different sort of choice. NO type of crafting should have a clear and overwhelming advantage over the other. This might equate to an "I Win" type 'button'/template, etc. for the combat portion of the game.
No crafting method should be the clear, universal, end-all choice when creating quality product. Period. If so, it further makes the other method (that isn't the clear choice) into even more of a grind that it already is...
This is what I'm talking about. You keep trying to frame the discussion in such a way that handcrafting is set at odds against factory crafting. Why this artificial distinction? Why should these be considered "alternative" methods to crafting when they are presently part of a continuous whole?
It is exactly this perspective which finds so much disagreement.
Then perhaps some people are have some misperceptions about what this discussion is actually trying to get to, issue-wise. As I'd stated earlier, I'm concerned that I've not yet really framed the topic of discussion in a way that's not divisive but inclusive to all (so that ALL types of crafting, factory and hand, can be made more fun, more rewarding, more entertaining and overall..............better).
In short: this "handcrafting" issue is a red herring whose only real purpose can be to deflect interest/criticism by appealing to the dilettante.
Uhhh....that's your take on the real purpose. The actual purpose here is to have a discussion about core crafting implementation / design and 'usability engineering' to ensure that all types of crafting are balanced, fun, rewarding and inclusive.
Note: I probably need to say this yet again.........this is NOT an 'Anti-factory-use discussion'.
You say this here, but it is a little hard to swallow since you are the one setting up the artificial distinction between handcrafting and factory crafting as alternatives to each other in the first place
The frustrating part of this entire exchange is that you either aren't listening to the concerns expressed or you are wilfully choosing to ignore this disagreement.
Uhhh....no, I'm gathering opinions, viewpoints and furthering discussion to see if the overall crafting experience can be made better. I don't ignore disagreements. I want to get to the heart of the issue that causes disagreement so that betters solutions and systems can come to light to address them for all players.
To re-iterate something I said before -- rather than dissipate the energies of passionate crafters across all servers on fighting for or against the railroading of this new "handcrafting" concept, why can't dev and community resources be devoted to fixing the GIGANTIC SLEW of broken stuff in crafting?
Bug fixes are ongoing irregardless of the outcome of any discussion we might have on core crafting 'revamp' type ideas.
And......../sigh...............no one is getting railroaded on anything here. We are TALKING.
/emote shakes his head...people just aren't getting it somehow...
Wouldn't that dramatically increase crafter satisfaction?
If crafting were bug-free but still as 'grindy' (i.e. not fun/entertaining)....would that equate to satisfaction?
The way it appears to me is that any attempt to blithely scrap and reforge the entire crafting system (which is implied by this "investigation" of handcrafting vs factories), why can't our existing bugs be addressed?
Cause the Devs don't like you.
But seriously...the only investigation here is an information/viewpoint-gathering one. We can see this discussion go to 30 pages but that doesn't mean anything in it will ever see even a single keystroke by the Dev team.
We are talking...........that is all.
So why is my perspective inappropriate? Why is it wrong for me and others to express an opinion which differs with your own? If we're talking to explore the space, why can't suggestions be made to cause you to re-evaluate your base assumptions? Why do we need to set handcrafting and factory crafting at odds with each other? Can you please address my earlier question with regard to whom this kind of change is supposed to serve? What part of your constituency benefits from setting handcrafting at odds against factory crafting?
To me, this sounds like something that the devs presented to the corrs at the summit and the waters are being tested through corrs like TK.
Then you are woefully mistaken. As stated well by Drashk, this is a topic that came up between some of the crafting Corrs. as something to kick around.
That.......................................is................................................all.
I suggest that as the crafting community we should unite in communicating back to the devs that they should stop revamping and start repairing.
Why not discuss both? A revamp (and repair) aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.
Of course they are. Temporally in any case. There is a limited pool of developer time to point at anything. Programmers love to work on new systems and grumble about fixing old ones. Given half an opportunity to jump off on some mad new adventure, they will leap at it. If we ever want our bugs resolved, we need to emphasize this above all else.
Respectfully,
ArveMennderchukk wrote:
TheRealTK421 wrote:
ArveMennderchukk wrote:
TheRealTK421 wrote:
I don't want the discussion to be about the "necessity" to handcraft. Instead, how to get it better/cooler/more fun so that there's reasons to hand-craft (even if it might not affect stats). It still can be on the table for a core design 'pass' and/or overhaul (and so should factory use as well).
TK, again with all due respect, I think you're still missing the point.
Errr...how can I? I'm the one that started the thread.
(No offense, but...) Maybe you're missing the point of this entire thread/discussion.
Your stated purpose for the thread was to solicit input. If that input disagrees with one of your assumptions, you blithely ignore it. How can this not be missing the point?
I agree with TK. See some of my earlier posts about trying to keep this thread on track.
If it is better to handcraft, you have just completely dispensed with factory crafting.
Bettering hand-crafting doesn't have to signal an end to factory use.....far from it. They need to be considered in relation to each other and the larger marketplace so that each option is more fun, more viable and 'inclusive'. As was stated earlier by Snikrop....the crafting system isn't as much fun/entertaining as I think we'd all like it to be.
/bow
Part of this discussion goes very much into changing that. I'm reading some number of DEs that would seem to support some sort of core changes that would actually make hand-crafting FUN...and not a grind.
Is it wrong for us to even discuss such a thing? I sure hope not...cause it means we have to live with grind hand-crafting for the duration. I don't think any of us wants that if the door could ever be opened to changing it.
I'm not averse to discussing this issue (isn't that what I've been doing?), I'm just averse to having the discussion steered away from certain perspectives. By couching it in the way you have, you have artificially excluded certain parts of the discussion to focus on other parts. I'm suggesting that the focus you have given the discussion is inappropriate.
Examples? Yes there are certain things that have been steered away from on this thread. Things that could easily go into other threads that won't bog down this one, such as "Is Factory Crafting balanced?" Feel free to start that thread. I honestly have no idea on that one. It appears to be balanced to me but I just don't know for sure.
You have just reaffirmed the point I've been making -- namely, that while saying you want to be inclusive and just be "talkin", you are consistently pushing the perspective that handcrafting should be better than using factories.
Not "better"....simply a different sort of choice. NO type of crafting should have a clear and overwhelming advantage over the other. This might equate to an "I Win" type 'button'/template, etc. for the combat portion of the game.
No crafting method should be the clear, universal, end-all choice when creating quality product. Period. If so, it further makes the other method (that isn't the clear choice) into even more of a grind that it already is...
This is what I'm talking about. You keep trying to frame the discussion in such a way that handcrafting is set at odds against factory crafting. Why this artificial distinction? Why should these be considered "alternative" methods to crafting when they are presently part of a continuous whole?
Actually, I believe you are mistaken. Yes, perhaps the thread should be retitled. But in reality, most of the skewing of the discussion has been done by many people. But we've tried to keep it on target. And been doing a pretty good job I think.
<SNIPPITY>
We are talking...........that is all.
So why is my perspective inappropriate? Why is it wrong for me and others to express an opinion which differs with your own? If we're talking to explore the space, why can't suggestions be made to cause you to re-evaluate your base assumptions? Why do we need to set handcrafting and factory crafting at odds with each other? Can you please address my earlier question with regard to whom this kind of change is supposed to serve? What part of your constituency benefits from setting handcrafting at odds against factory crafting?
I think that you're misunderstanding what TK is trying to say. We're just TALKING nothing else. Nothing official, no alterior motives, just trying to get a feel for what the community wants. And how crafting as a whole can be made better.
<snip>
Why not discuss both? A revamp (and repair) aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.
Of course they are. Temporally in any case. There is a limited pool of developer time to point at anything. Programmers love to work on new systems and grumble about fixing old ones. Given half an opportunity to jump off on some mad new adventure, they will leap at it. If we ever want our bugs resolved, we need to emphasize this above all else.
Yes, but if we do it right maybe we can get them to do both at the sime time.
Respectfully,