Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: No combat droids, please
Thunderheart wrote:
Im reading through it all
Thank you TH for considering and reading every post to help make our profession better. 
I too have read every post tonight *whew* and would like to offer thefollowing key points some of whichhave not been touched on so far. To add a disclaimer, I dont have all the answers but I am glad everyone has come together to try to be constructive in these posts and to find a solution to the entire matter.
First, IMHO,there should be combat droids. For no other reason than this is Star Wars and people associate Star Wars with droids, especially after the last two movies.
Btw I am a Master Droid Engineer from Naritus who reads and posts to the DE boards regularly so I make my assumptions based on months of reading the DE boards and gauging what many of my fellow DEs seem to want. Also I am very into not complicating matters. K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple SWG).
There are several issues here that have been posted here with compelling arguement for either side. I will attempt to, in a long winded fashion, describe them here and offer K.I.S.S solutions.
Problem #1: Combat Droids for DEs only? Will this send dabblers flooding in?
Droids that DEs can use only. Lets be honest, there are few rewards at Master DE. We need a special droid as a rewardwhile NOT making us the profession du jour. This is a problem because other professions want the best combat droids and if the best droid is a DE only droid, it may become worthwhile for others to a lot of skill points to get it. Also, most DEs are of the crafter mentality and want to sell these droids to other professions because we are up to this point mostly businesspersons. Some argue that our market will be diminished if dabblers come in to gain access to these droids. We must make both the DEs who want to have combat droids happy while assuring the strict crafters that they will not have their market flooded.
Solution #1:
Let everyone be able to purchase the "best combat droid" or the best and next best. No one will have to dabble if it is available to everyone. Then after that let there be a combat droid that a DE gets at the master level that isnt the best but really cool. Therefore it give no superiorcombat advantage to a DE over other players yet allows them to have a perk. (The best example I could think to parallel this is Composite Armor to Stormtrooper Armor, composite is better but stormtrooper will do well but only certain players can have it, and so there isnt an unfair advantage to limiting who can have stormtrooper armor). This should be a nice compromise between DEs pro combat droids and DEs who want to remain crafters but not have dabblers destroy their market.
Another arguement is that dabblers can't dabble if you give us stuff at Master DE as a reward for our efforts. How worth it will it be to burn 92 skill points to get a certain droid that isnt the best combat droid? At the master level there are no infamous 2 2 0 0 CH type players and besides it wouldnt make sense to be able to build an MSE and control a Droideka.
Problem #2: Droid Certs: To have or not to have them. Limit content at everyone's expense to prevent noobs from power leveling.
Assume if probem #1 is solved sothe best Combat Droids, when made, can be used by anyone. This is a problem because Devs dont want to let noobs grind to fast therefore dont want droids for everyone. Enter the possiblity of Droid Certs. The counter-arguement to Droid certs is that anyone should be able to use them because they are droids so you tell them what to do and they do it.
Solution #2:
No need for complicated droid certs. K.I.S.S. DEs already have to explain too much to their customers about why stuff doesnt work or why they cant use something. Just make Combat Droids very costly to produce therefore very expensive to sell.Part of the reason Master Architects sell Guild Halls at such a high price is the difficulty/risk of construction and amount of minerals to make one (or large amounts of really rare minerals). Economically to break even, you need to set a high price to cover crafting costs.Just apply the guild hall cost-to-build idea tocombat droids. Noobs dont have a lot of money.If these things are really expensive to build and therefore to buy, it solves the noob problem. Let the economy filter the market buyers. Even with a great droid, with the upcoming smarter AI verus pet tanks wherea MOB will come after the pet's master, a noob with a combat droid wont stand much of a chance anyways . 
Plus no droid certs meanmore happy SOE customers who get access to a lot of contentand more importantlyless lines of code for you Devs to write so less bugs to deal with!
Problem #3:Should DEs be able to use Combat Droids?
By using combat droids, does that make the DE profession a combat profession? Wouldnt it be better to create a seperate droid handler profession?
Solution #3:
No solution just more K.I.S.S.! First creating a droid handler profession is basically creating another creature handler profession. And since the CH tree is in the midst of an overhaul, why create a second one so quick? Also, as I have stated before, most combat people seem to want to have access to these droids. K.I.S.S., again. No need to complicate a simple matter.
Secondly, we DEs can use probots right now. No one has minded so far. Does being able to use probots make us a combat-crafter profession then? Why does adding more combat droids make this an issue? Especially when it looks like we will only be able to have one combat droid out at once. I think most people who come here dont realize that fact right there but see DEs being able to control 3 droids at once and think they will all be combat while everyone else only gets one. Hope this clears some confusion.
Third, and most importantly from a DEs perspective, DEs should be able to control these combatdroidssimply because we have to train new owners how to use their droids. I spend a lot of time teaching new owners the ins and outs of their droid's controls and features. By denying us access to combat droids, a DE will not be able to train someone how to use an item we built. That creates a huge knowledge gap between creator and customer. I need to know what the droid interface for these droids looks like or I will be at a loss to provide a crutial service that gets me a lot of return customers. Sure I could eventually find out when someone tells me how it works but there are always changes to those interfaces.
Prime example: Changing interface of droids (and creatures) like soon to be getting rid of I think the "friend" function in pets. How would I know otherwise?Thereforehow would I knowto be able to inform mycustomer?I pity the poor casual gamer DE who doesnt stay up to the minute with the latest changes on Dev Tracker. I also pity every DE if Droid Certs go in that have to answer what droid they can get at what level etc. 
But so to not end on a pitying note, please just remember one thing. K.I.S.S. Keep it Simple SWG.
TH: Keep saying that over and over and over. Repeat to the devs as necessary. Everyone needs some kisses sometimes. They're better than bugs and tastier too! Good luck with figuring this out. You've done a great job so far and I know you won't do us wrong.
A keeper of the faith,
Cameo - Master DE and Zabrak Extraordinaire
jcarlson34 wrote:
I also pity every DE if Droid Certs go in that have to answer what droid THEY can get at what level etc.
Heh, BAH to no edit button! WhatI meant by THEY is thatthecustomer will be asking what droid they can get at what level because it is much easier to ask a DE than to look in the skill tree and find out.With the running list of current droid problems, there are several email to be sent and/or several minutes of explaining already towards informing a customer on what droids can and cant do before they even put in new droids. I can easily spend a good 10 minutes with a customer only to get a "well thanks anyways but no thanks, I'm not buying em while they are messed up". It is not their fault because they do not know yet but it is frustrating. And since a droid FAQ has yet to be forth coming (psst TH this would be a great holocron addition), I dread the day they put certs in (which hopefully is never) heh.
A keeper of the faith,
Cameo - Master DE and Zabrak Extraordinaire
ThorsAnvil wrote:
Master BH leaves you with a wopping 33 points
The problem is they are not mastering BH but instead are taking just whats needed and have left over skill points.
BH needs more points to novice and is not a good example in the first place.
Try inserting commando with less skill points needed.
CH takes 2 trees in scout while DE can get by with 1 tree in artisan, It would open the door for wider range of problems in the long run.
If your going to make more combat droids limiting them to DE's only just creates more problems than it solves.
Fix the droids the class already has and go from there.If the fixes dont help you can add on later as needed.
my 2 cents:
Combat droids do exist in the post Clone War era, they were outlawed by the Empire; thus, they are very rare. If someone had a combat droid, they would be breaking imperial law by doing so. Imperial moffs, high ranking Hutts and others of their stature are able to have these droids because of the power they have or because what they do is inline with the Emperor and his goals. Rebels wouldn't have them because of their mythos, and Luke Smuchatelli wouldn't be able to have one because any Imperial that found out would enforce Imperial law and kill him on sight.
I am all for adding combat droids to SWG; however, to add them in a manner that fits with the continuity of the Star Wars Universe would take alot of effort in both balance and enforcing the political and social ramifications of making, selling, and/or owning such a dangerous black market item.
Perhaps just adding some new droid types and mods, along with making sure all mods work properly would be the best course for the DE profession at this time.
Thunderheart wrote:
None get advantages to the actual "use" of their products.
yeah, but wouldnt you folks LIKE to have a neat aspect to the class?
I DEFINITELY want combat droids.
It's a bad idea to take things said on these boards as an indication of majority will. Because you guys have now SAID that we're going to GET combat droids, many of the people who WANT combat droids, (like myself), think they've won the debate, and don't respond to this topic anymore. As soon as you say, "OK, no combat droids.", then everyone who WANTED them will speak up again. Be careful in how you interpret things said in the forums. Your decisions should be based on YOUR view of the game, not necessarily your customers. When seeking customer opinion, use mandatory polls or something.
Sincerely.
In an ideal galaxy, I would be able to pull pets anywhere in the field without the need to have a camp or a private structure (perhaps with a time delay to prevent abuse). If this were the case, I would vote for dedicated combat droids that can be handled (possibly with varying efficiency) by anyone.
I would be riding on my mount towards my destination, upon arrival I would store the mount, pull the combat droid, do what a man's got to do, store the combat droid, pull the surgical droid and heal my group and myself.
With the current restrictions on pulling pets, I figure I will be riding on my mount towards my destination, try to find a structure close to it (unless grouped with a scout), store my mount, pull my multi-purpose droid there and proceed to my destination.
I kinda like having my floating med module around, and I would love to have more help in combat than a probot can offer on it's own, so (under the current ruleset) I'm all for combat modules that can go into some existing droids (DZ70, Probot), or combat droids that can take med modules.
Speaking as an Ex-DE, I always disliked the idea that all modules can go into virtually all chassis.
I strongly believe combat modules should only go in the DZ70, the Probot and perhaps new dedicated combat droids. I really do not want to see a 3PO with a blaster in its hand.
I would accept any kind of certification system which isn't based on spending skill points in a profession I don't want to take: for one, because I don't have the skill points left, but also because I don't want to have to grind a crafter profession to increase my efficiency in handling my droid.
Instead of Certs, the efficiency in handling combat droids could be based for example on the highest achieved combat xp based skill, to avoid overpowering new players or non-combattants. In a weird way, it even makes sense that more combat experience would help me to control my combat droid while being under fire.
Several thoughts on Combat Droids
1) Combat Modules. I would like to see these modules be available for any droid chassis. Granted, placing on in a Astromech or MSE droid they should be limited. Placeing them in a Combat Chassis they should be fully effective. This would allow me to create "combat" droids for anyone.
I might even go as far as every droid chassis has a combat module slot and combat chasis like the probot have two combat slots and the fearsome Droideka has three combat slots. This would allow any droid to be functional ie medical droids and still have limited combat abilities.
2) Chasis have various clasifications so even if a non-DE gets a probot or even Droideka, the combat capablities are not as high as they can be but it would still be a more effective droid. Afterall the combat droids can have better armor and such so even though the offensive capabilties of the droid is less, the defensive capabilites is better for the higher end droids.
This gives DE a market for the combat droids even though they may not be as effective.
3) Why DE should have combat droids and no one else. I saw someone say that weaponsmiths could make weapons so they are not true "crafters". I believe the difference between DE and WS is that weapons need certifications. So a Master WS may be able to make some wicked weapons but they and others cannot use them effectively without certification.
I believe we are more in line with the CH and not the WS. Continuing the example started in 1. Lets say anyone can effectively use one combat modulein a droid but it takes a DE to use two combat modules in a droid and a Master DE to use three combat modules in a droid. This would allow us to sell normal droids and even droid based on combat chasis but only DE get the uber-combat capablities of droids. Just like non-CH can have CL10 creatures (ie One Combat Module) and low level CH can have better creatures, it takes a master CH to have the uber creatures.
It seems to me the DE may work as a hybrid class. They can craft the droids but also use them more effectivly as combat droids. So a Droideka or Probot or R2 unit or Medical Droid is a moderatly effective combat droid when used by others, but when a combat droid like the Probot or Droideka is used by a low level DE they combat effectiveness becomes quit real and when a Master DE uses a Droideka they become a force to be reconded with.
If DEs get to be some hybrid combat crafting class, then I absolutely demand that I can train my heavy harvester to tank for me in battles. After all, we architects want to be combat class, too! There's nothing prettier, in my mind, then to be able to have three equipment factories out, all tanking against the krayt dragon. I would so pwn it!
-Zoobacca
Master Architect
artisan Is artisan, its never been combat based and shouldn't be. if there want combat they can do what everyone else does, get a pet or get some combat skills.
I don't have a problem with DE's being able to call extra droids, as they once where susposed tobe able to, how else can they display one and use another?
I think that droids should be restricted to support only, and not combat capable. There are already issues with players being able to deal more damage faster than they are supposed to, so why would youcompoound this problem by adding combat droids as well?
If the Devs are not going to at least give it their best shotat stickingto Star Wars continuity, they may as well take the Star Wars name off of the product. (Truthfully, they could do that now and no one would notice or care much as the Star Wars content in this game is minimal and most of it is in name/titles only.) Most droids were the mechanical "slaves" of this time period. They were not looked upon kindly, but were commonly as one would use a slave or a servant. There were few, if any, combat capable droids. If I remember correctly, there were actually laws against this. (Probably enforced by the Empire.) I'll have to look into this again, but I seem to remember reading this in a SW book somewhere.
I believe there is already enough in the game to give players a boost to in combat situation. How about we stop trying to add more bugs.......errrr.......features to combat and concentrate of adding features to enhance theother aspects of the game, like crafting, healing, dancing....etc......etc?
Idea One: Say you're going to be gone for 2 weeks.......or you just don't feel like doing maint./power runs yourself. Why not have a droid module that could do this for you? The droid would have access to your bank account and you'd be able to load it up with power. Opening the droid interface would give you a list of all structures that you own (with an option for owners of other sturctures to allow your droid access to their structures. This would be useful in cases where you may be managing other's extractors or buildings.) This droid would then, make your power/maint. rounds for you on whatever buildings/structures you indicate for it to maintain. You'd also have an option for the droid to check the sturctures daily or weekly. On top of the money and power used to maintain the structures, it would cost both power and money for the droid to operate. BONUS: Yet another sought after money sink with an actual purpose!!
Valin_Duroth wrote:
Allow us to make combat droids...if you don't want to use them or sell them then don't...don't speak for everyone!!
We aren't speaking for everyone, nor has anyone hereclaimed to speak for everyone...we were asked a question by TH and we are answering it according to how we feel on the subject....it would be ignorant and unintelligent of us to voice an opinion one way or another without giving our reasoning for our position!!
OMG now people start asking to not give us things we always wanted and the sadest part of it apparently they get heard.
As a DE (see sig) i want to make viable droids and sell them. I don't want to take a char with zero combat skills into situations he wasn't made for.
If you argue with this being post clone wars era then please look at all the other continuity breakers.
Well anyways, i'll keep DE if we get vehicle building or drop it if vehicles require a whole new profession (any hint on that yet Thunderheart?).