Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Publish 7 Update
Kollos wrote:
Yes, but how much damage does that LE Repair Adv do with its 3 combat modules vs the 5 in a Probot?
LE Repair:
- Attack: 1.91
- To hit: 0.3
- Damage: 55-67
Note: This was a very very 'yucky' built LE Repair (I did it that way on purpose, just to see what would happen.)
Adv. Probot (from Drashk)
- Attack: 0.75
- To hit: 0.38
- Damage: 149-159
/bow
Respectfully,
Arcid wrote:
progman63 The single thing that you're missing is that we did vote for something, we all voted for Droid Certs, it was only after the Droid Handler announcement that we found out that the certs idea had been removed from our list of choices.
So when people were asked "Do you want DE to be a hybrid profession" most people saw it as "Do you want certs or a Hybrid DE". And as most people wanted Certs so said that they didn't want a hybrid DE. So time passes, and then we get told that we specifically asked for a Droid Handler profession, because we didn't want to be a hybrid profession
Well, that's one way to look at it. And it could appear that's what happened.
I don't remember many DE saying that the onlychoice was betweencerts or hybrid but maybe there were a few. Most of the debate about a hybrid profession that I saw dealt with not being able to sell combat droids if DE were the only ones that could make them and use them. And the influx people that didn't care about the profession only wanting to use them.
I do remember it being previously stated that skillpoints would have to be expended for combat droid skills.
More than likely what the corrs and devs did was compile a list of possible solutions with comments from the forums, prioritize the list with pros and cons, and then evaluate the feasability of each option on the list.
Then they came back to us with their decision.
Unfortunately not everything that goes on in the forums goes straight to the devs ears.
A simple bulleted list is probably alot easier to digest than paragraphs and paragraphs of explanation.
While the devs can be advised that the community prefers one solution, they must evaluate things with many other considerations.
And that's what we're doing - voicing our preference. Not demanding how they will implement the game.
I think that the differences between creatures and droids will give players more options when engaging in PvP and PvE.
Since we've been told that people will be able to have a creature and a droid out, they could use the creature to tank, and the droid to deal damage. If you're looking for XP, you'll still probably prefer a tank.
Message Edited by progman63 on 03-14-2004 03:37 PM
Message Edited by progman63 on 03-14-2004 03:39 PM
/bow
progman63 wrote:
I think what TK is trying to point out is that there are good things and bad things with this publish.
The bad things are definitely bad.
Yup...and I'm gonna see what can be done about them. I hope you all knew that.
Devs: "How do you like the publish?"
Me:
But the good things are still good.
Yup. There are some quite good things rolling our way. It's the stuff that people care about the most that's still in some amount of contention, though...
If combat droids don't measure up, customers won't buy them. If droids can't adequately aid players in combat, or there's no strategy to using them, people won't. If droids cost significantly more to purchase or maintain than creatures, people will just stay with creatures.
The strategy for use of the new Probots is: Make the work at range for you. Get ANY other method you can to tank the mob. That's the best use of them....
However, lets not forget that we'll still have Medic droids and crafting to fall back on. Those aren't going away.
People will use the best suited, least expensive, option most every time - that's a market factor that can't be changed. Droids have to compete or they won't sell. Plain and simple.
Respectfully,
AudioOrgana wrote:
TheRealTK421 wrote:
AudioOrgana wrote:
We see a HUGE nerf that you keep pooh-poohing, and very, very little additional content for customers who are expecting a hell of a lot more out of a "Droid Invasion".
I'm not pooh-poohing the armor change, Audio. I know it's going to hurt.
On the flip side, I see the positive in that we do have a working ability to actually 'stim' our droids...something we've been asking for forever and now finally have. That is a good thing.
Yes, it would have been a good thing under the old system. In the new system, it's largely irrelevant. People weren't asking to constantly stim their droids during battle to keep them alive, they wanted to be able to heal them up after and go fight again. So yes, they are giving us the shiny new apple (six-eight months late) with one hand, but slapping us accross the face with the other. I have said since the beginning, yes, the stimpacks are nice, but it's not going to matter once people realize how very weak our droids are now.
Audio is right : if you are incombat the new combat droid is pretty much worthless. You can't fight, heal yourself and heal you droid at the same time. Each healing removes at least one hit from you and you are supposed to do over 40-120 damage a hit so the choice is easy to make => keep droid in datapad
Tell us how we aren't going to mind sitting at our factories, producing 2-3 times the parts we were before and getting a droid that is WORSE than before the patch;
I'mnotgoing to mind it because I probably won't take the time to make EVERY part myself. I'm thinking I'll sub-contract these with a lower-level DE (so that both he/she and I get something out of the deal).I'm not 100% on that yet...but it's something I'm going to look into...
That's great, it's coping - but still does not justify how ourProbots need more than twice as many parts yet are going to be much weaker. The higher damage won't matter if the droid can't survive more than one shot. It's great you are finding a way to "deal" with it - but it still isn't something POSITIVE. It'sa lot more work for less of a reward.
Droids needs much more components, and arentbetter what's the point? And I don't speak about the insane storage that willbe needed fot the newparts... databases issues? And again a bit higher damage doesn't justify the weaknees. AnI hope your mid level DE friends will stay mid level for... some time!
tell us how doubling the named resources we need will be fun, especially when the additions are for a product that most people aren't even going to need/will laugh at for weak CL-10 pets; tell us how people downloading that Wallpaper aren't going to log in an excpect to find those droids on our vendors.
Well, I agree that the Wallpaper was mis-stating the Droid Invasion, from a certain point of view. Those droids ARE now in the game...just not in the way that most people are expecting.
Actually, they won't be in the game when the publish goes live. They will be in the game two weeks later. For those two weeks, it's all about us. I've heard the arguments about the Corvette being the "invasion" and it's weak - as much as I have enjoyed going up in the Corvette we have only known about it for a few weeks - this "Invasion" was planned and announced publicly long before then. People (and the uber-padded patch notes) say droids and DE"s are the focus of this invasion. I haven't made a huge deal about that wallpaper, but the fact that it's up there and that anyone can see the patch notes have way too many, "A combat droid module can be put in any combat capable droid. (next) A combat module is made like any other module, etc." says a lot to confirm our fears, and that they realize, an "Invasion" this is not.
Huge miscommunication issue wich will hurt all DEs
Do you not think I'm going to have to deal with the same kinds of upset people that you (and all of us) will?
I'm sure you will. If that's the case - you must understand why so many of us arejust finally throwing our hands upwith frustration at what a fiasco this is going to turn out to be for us as players. And if so, you understand why making generalizations and "wishing" we'd stay positive in public is not conducive to feeling better about the situation, only worse. We may try to recoup financially, but the player perception about the usefulness of droids remains unchanged, and it's now or never - this is our big day.
Unless they REALLY ramp it up for Publish 8 (by implementing some form of combat droid in spite of earlier miscommunications and false assumptions on everyones part), or by truly giving us the utility droids that people crave (i.e. except for the merchant module, what is on the plate does not fill that criteria), DE is going to remain the niche profession in a galaxy where we should be one of the most prominent.
I know that having more parts to make is going to change how people play DE. As of yet, I'm not convinced that this is a bad thing..just a different thing.
I full well understand the concept of "not a bad thing, a different thing" (like that side of the argument of the big crafting nerf), but in this case I really don't think it applies.
/bow
- DE's who build droids by hand (a la Luke Skywalker) will simply take more time and work to build a single droid; prices have to go up to make it profitable, but the function in terms of combat is going to be seen as greatly diminished. It would be one thing if we had a choice between armor/damage, but now with virtually no armor it's stim or die.
- DE's who have moderate sized operations are going to have to buy extra houses just to fill with backpacks of components.
- DE's who run large industrial operations (like myself) are simply going to be capped even further. Some may think this is a good thing, which is what I think you are getting at; it might be a good thing if it would help everyone else, but it's not - making droids less visible and as niche items made only by hand and driving the few industrial operations that help create the market out while at the same time making them harder for even the "little guy" to make is not good for anyone.
The different thing is really :
- nerfing the capacity of all DEs to produce all droids in reasonble quantities
- requesting more storage and more factories
If you used to make 400 Droid Brains in a run, now you might want to run less and commit your factory runs to smaller or more specific parts. I'm not telling you how to run your business here...just making the point that this release is going to change the 'business model' for all DEs...not just you.
Um, I never said it was all about me, but the thing is - in my personal situation, the situation of other DE's, and the perception of customers, I see the same thing.I don't see what making less parts in factories is going to help me whenDE's need MORE of them - unless again you simply think it will be good to limit the amount of droids people can make. I'm not sure you understand what the problem is in terms ofparts : we need MORE parts to do a WORSE job than before. Any way you cut it, the only thing weare going to break into in terms of markets is the relatively dead CL-10 non-mount pets. With an armor nerf we are losing both our customers that enjoyed them as a mini-tank, and those who appriciated having their utility modules in a droid that could last a few shots in battle.
My "business model" is very adaptable, always has been - I'm one of the few DE's that have made 10's of millions with droids because I find the markets and I fill them. And from that perspective, I can tell you - the two biggest markets for Probots just went down the tubes. I think some people will try out the LE's with combat, but they will be like the cute CL-10 creature pet you keep in your pack named "Kitty" for roleplaying. Combat modules will become an add-in when trying to fill out an R3 droid for someone who doesn't want it stacked up with crafting stations and has an extra module slot or two.
None of that is what the playerbase is expecting with the Droid Invasion.
Hmm so we have to change the business model, good why not?
What good does it brings to us :
- better droids?
- easyer production?
- lower storage needs?
- more customers?
None of above
If you have a TRUE positive light to shed on this, TK - by all means do so.
Well...errr...I just started this, Audio. You don't mind if I try to get on top of some of this new info by testing and trying some of this out, do you?
Not at all.I would not have brought it up if you had not challenged the perceptions of the DE community that this patch will mean very little to customers and simply more work for us. You can't tell us we are wrong for thinking the way we do without telling us why. If you need time to figure out why, that's fine - but wait to tell us we are wrong until you figure it out.
Well TK you are trying to do your job and I have nothing against you, but the more I read your lasts posts the more I tend to think your are trying to justify the changes.
I want you the way you where before, it doesn't fit you to justify SOE miscommunication and design issues
If you have rehetoric and want to sing "Kumbayah", then just ignore me - don't bother to reply.
You know I can't ignore you. I don't want to sing happy songs. What I do want to do is not look at the entire release as lemons but try to see it for the lemonade that we can make. Right now, I have very little experience with changes. So, I appreciate your patience as I try to get a handle on how the changes will actually play out in the long term.
Well, the way for us to not look at it as lemons would have been more obvious if they hadn't a) nerfed armor or b) released that wallpaper to further the notion that the Droid Invasion is about combat droids for them. The problem is that that nerf is not only going to kill several markets for NEW droids, it also is going to royally PO the customers we already have.
The problem is, our definition isn't really changing in a positive way - and that's the bottom line. At the same time, we are being asked to a) work harder, and b) ask our customersto swallow a HUGE nerf.
I wish you luck in findinglemonade that tastes better than the water we already had - because when all is saidand done, I think many of us are going to wish we had just been happy with our plain ol' H2O (DEpre-publish 6) in the first place and never dared ask for anything more.
Audio
Respectfully,
Audio
A crazy-ass wookiee with a lightsaber, I have to see that
TheRealTK421 wrote:
progman63 wrote:
I think what TK is trying to point out is that there are good things and bad things with this publish.
The bad things are definitely bad.
Yup...and I'm gonna see what can be done about them. I hope you all knew that.
Devs: "How do you like the publish?"
Me:
/bow
Arnwald wrote:
Audio is right : if you are in combat the new combat droid is pretty much worthless.
What are the stats of the combat droid you've been testing on TC? What kind of situation/mob were you battling with it? Just curious...I want to get as much hard data as possible.
You can't fight, heal yourself and heal you droid at the same time.
Didn't seem to be too problematic for me.
Each healing removes at least one hit from you and you are supposed to do over 40-120 damage a hit so the choice is easy to make => keep droid in datapad
If I'd have done that on one of my Jabba missions, I'd have probably gotten DB'd. As it stood..having the Probot out getting on the Tusken pretty much saved my hide. And...I was even able to heal it while I was Dizzied and KD'd.
Droids needs much more components, and arentbetter what's the point? And I don't speak about the insane storage that willbe needed fot the newparts... databases issues? And again a bit higher damage doesn't justify the weaknees. AnI hope your mid level DE friends will stay mid level for... some time!
Part of me thinks that this is a way to help move along the profession specialization that the Devs are after and a way to make sure that economically destabilizing monopolies aren't bred. It bites that we have to fall into that situation...but if that is what is part of what led to this, I think the whole game needed to be honest.
Huge miscommunication issue wich will hurt all DEs. The different thing is really :
- nerfing the capacity of all DEs to produce all droids in reasonble quantities
That's the point. The Devs do not want this. This is, in fact, a potential monopoly situation. Those are discouraged. Increased specialization in the crafting professions is something that appears to be a short to medium term design goal, at this stage of the game. You could make a TON of one kind of droid or a bit of all of them. I guess if you're really an uber-crafter, you might be able to pull off both.
- requesting more storage and more factories
Hmmm...my suggestion is to get/use smaller housing. 5 small or med. houses have more storage than my single large house. And...factory storage doesn't seem to be an issue for personally (but I can see how it would be for some).
Hmm so we have to change the business model, good why not? What good does it brings to us :
- better droids? - well, things are getting better and better (just not as fast as we'd all like).
- easyer production? - I don't think production is supposed to be "easier".
- lower storage needs? - not fully sure what you mean here.
- more customers? - I have more and more clients all the time. What kinds of issues do you seem to have with building a client-base?
None of above
Well TK you are trying to do your job and I have nothing against you, but the more I read your lasts posts the more I tend to think your are trying to justify the changes.
No, not really justify...just figure out how they will really play out and affect me (and all of us). Right now, it's a bit soon for me to say definitively. I think that some things they are doing (while they aren't fun) are needed, like the crafting change. This makes resource quality a LOT more important than it did in the past. I happen to want that...and I have for a long long time.
I want you the way you were before, it doesn't fit you to justify SOE miscommunication and design issues
As I said, I don't think I'm really justifying anything. I do, however, want to know what I'm talking about before I bash changes that might actually help us (armor issue aside, for now).
Not all things that we get will be "bad". I just want to try to help some people to realize that. It could always be worse...we might have had to swallow DH (and that might still happen).
Respectfully,
Hmm
I'm reading and I'm watching..and I'm thinking and I'm wondering.
What I am most wondering is what you know that we dont know.
Something has changed you TK, and if it isn't as simple as orders from above to be nice to SOE (which by the way I don't think you would follow), then you must know that something is in the pipe to make this horrible armour nerf less bad.
My straighforward suggestion is that they reverse the AR2 nerf, and wait a while to see how it pans out. If they then dont like the results come and talk to us about how to change it.
That would do nicely for my customers (who are now by the way getting angry about that wallpaper) and it would do nicely for me and us.
This nerf really is going too far in one step, and I am surprised if you and they cannot see it as such.
it is MASSIVE, amounts to the destruction of our (already limited) combat droid market.
One tweak of a switch and they could tone it down..so Correspondant, why are they so set on this?
Lets have the communication from them that was promised eh?
Just a suggestion to Nero, as he watches Rome burn.....try to issue fire blankets.
/bow
Hello TK,
ty for your reply
TheRealTK421 wrote:
/bow
Arnwald wrote:
Audio is right : if you are in combat the new combat droid is pretty much worthless.
What are the stats of the combat droid you've been testing on TC? What kind of situation/mob were you battling with it? Just curious...I want to get as much hard data as possible.
I don't have a DE on TC, nor time for it with the hologrinding before they change it
But I saw you in that post ^_^ :
Drashk wrote:
The ADV R3 with a max Combat Rating of 600 and 100% Effective Experimenation has 330 HAM, 70 - 80 Damage, 1.5 Speed, and 0.35 To Hit.
The ADV Probot with the same rating and Experimentation has 990 HAM, 110 - 130 Damage, 1.5 Speed, and 0.35 to Hit.
I think that this can lay to rest all of the worries that everyone has had about the ADV R3 becoming the best combat droid. The ADV Probot will still hold on to this title, at least until something else comes out that is better.
Well they could be good with the 40% medium armor, not with the 20% resists (AR0) seems we are getting, anyway don't make me wrong we are gooing in the goo way!
The fact is a BE enhanced level 10 pet can have about 90 damagebut can go to 3-3,5 k HAM like 5-7% resists BUT : it can be doc buffed for 2-3k in each stat PLUS food buffed.
We would need armors, power shields, for the droids there is a real market for droid tanking buffs I can tell...
You can't fight, heal yourself and heal you droid at the same time.
Didn't seem to be too problematic for me.
It seems we are not fighting the same mobs, the same DE customers are fighting... my mobs needs full loving attention from me
Each healing removes at least one hit from you and you are supposed to do over 40-120 damage a hit so the choice is easy to make => keep droid in datapad
If I'd have done that on one of my Jabba missions, I'd have probably gotten DB'd. As it stood..having the Probot out getting on the Tusken pretty much saved my hide. And...I was even able to heal it while I was Dizzied and KD'd.
For the healing while Dizzied and KD I would tell it could be an "exploit", you are not supposed to heal anything while KDed, we'll see...
All commandos can deal over 10k a hit or heal their probot, your choice?
Ok ok I took the worst example, but any char a bit experienced can do over 500 damage a hit anyway...
Droids needs much more components, and arentbetter what's the point? And I don't speak about the insane storage that willbe needed fot the newparts... databases issues? And again a bit higher damage doesn't justify the weaknees. AnI hope your mid level DE friends will stay mid level for... some time!
Part of me thinks that this is a way to help move along the profession specialization that the Devs are after and a way to make sure that economically destabilizing monopolies aren't bred. It bites that we have to fall into that situation...but if that is what is part of what led to this, I think the whole game needed to be honest.
Could we get the other part the secret one? kid... kid..!
Ok but you do agree we are boosting database issues, at least there isn't much DE around so the impact will be low.
Huge miscommunication issue wich will hurt all DEs. The different thing is really :
- nerfing the capacity of all DEs to produce all droids in reasonble quantities
That's the point. The Devs do not want this. This is, in fact, a potential monopoly situation. Those are discouraged. Increased specialization in the crafting professions is something that appears to be a short to medium term design goal, at this stage of the game. You could make a TON of one kind of droid or a bit of all of them. I guess if you're really an uber-crafter, you might be able to pull off both.
I understand and I agree partially, let's say you got the point!
- requesting more storage and more factories
Hmmm...my suggestion is to get/use smaller housing. 5 small or med. houses have more storage than my single large house. And...factory storage doesn't seem to be an issue for personally (but I can see how it would be for some).
Well still agree need for more storage.
There is a pretty neat idea about database issues and storage in the weaponsmith forum and in the in concept of this week.
One of them would be to have crates of 1k items instead of multiples ones and the ability to pile up same resource in insane amounts...
Hmm so we have to change the business model, good why not? What good does it brings to us :
- better droids? - well, things are getting better and better (just not as fast as we'd all like). : not much better very low changes, anyway we'll see.
- easyer production? - I don't think production is supposed to be "easier".
should be if items are lower...
- lower storage needs? - not fully sure what you mean here.
Need to store less components / parts resources / schematics
- more customers? - I have more and more clients all the time. What kinds of issues do you seem to have with building a client-base?
I don't have issues but if it was a real droid invasion we would be obliged to refuse clients and I can't wait for that lol!!!
None of above
Well TK you are trying to do your job and I have nothing against you, but the more I read your lasts posts the more I tend to think your are trying to justify the changes.
No, not really justify...just figure out how they will really play out and affect me (and all of us). Right now, it's a bit soon for me to say definitively. I think that some things they are doing (while they aren't fun) are needed, like the crafting change. This makes resource quality a LOT more important than it did in the past. I happen to want that...and I have for a long long time.
Yes I know you have been for a long time and I was watching you, audio,...all the oldies ones!
About the crafting change I invite you to have a look in the weaponsmith forum, it is a "nerf".
I can foward you hard data if you want, but in resume ALL crafters are loosing about 3 Exp points in the crafting process as it needs much more Exp points to maximise a single line
I want you the way you were before, it doesn't fit you to justify SOE miscommunication and design issues
As I said, I don't think I'm really justifying anything. I do, however, want to know what I'm talking about before I bash changes that might actually help us (armor issue aside, for now).
Not all things that we get will be "bad". I just want to try to help some people to realize that. It could always be worse...we might have had to swallow DH (and that might still happen).
That's I where afraid to hear from you with your new hat : I'm trying to make things so they aren't worse, makes me sad
Respectfully,
Shian_Tavkin wrote:
TK said:
As I said, I don't think I'm really justifying anything. I do, however, want to know what I'm talking about before I bash changes that might actually help us (armor issue aside, for now).
Sorry TK old fella, but 'Armour Issues Aside, For Now' just *searches for suitable American expression* ummm...doesn't cut it..will that do?
No way can you put armour issues aside, not even 'for now'
The armour has to come back..and that is that.
And this is the point.
The "good" things would have been good if applied to droids as-is, butthe armor nerf negates all of the positive things that could have come.
Honestly, they almost had me with the higher damage on Probots - Istill did not think it was a droid invasion, but I knew the droids that I already was selling would continue to sell, and be of greater benefit because they could be repaired in between missions/battles.
Now, we are less than we ever were - thishas got to be the clinical definition of "one step forward, two steps back."
Audio
/bow
Shian_Tavkin wrote:
Hmm
I'm reading and I'm watching..and I'm thinking and I'm wondering. What I am most wondering is what you know that we dont know.
I know most of what you know...and maybe a tiny bit more. It lot like there's volumes and volumes of droid info on the Corr. boards or anything (Yet).
Something has changed you TK, and if it isn't as simple as orders from above to be nice to SOE (which by the way I don't think you would follow), then you must know that something is in the pipe to make this horrible armour nerf less bad.
To be honest, I have to more to cover than I used to...that's a big part of it.
My straighforward suggestion is that they reverse the AR2 nerf, and wait a while to see how it pans out. If they then dont like the results come and talk to us about how to change it.
I'll put forward what I can on the AR thing and see what they will consider. That's about all I can do in the short term, all.
That would do nicely for my customers (who are now by the way getting angry about that wallpaper) and it would do nicely for me and us.
This nerf really is going too far in one step, and I am surprised if you and they cannot see it as such.
I hope you don't think I can't see it.
it is MASSIVE, amounts to the destruction of our (already limited) combat droid market.
One tweak of a switch and they could tone it down..so Correspondant, why are they so set on this?
Honestly, I don't know yet. I still feel like I'm too green at the Corr. thing to really be able to dig into this with them. Remember, half the days I've done this...the Devs have been out of the office.
Lets have the communication from them that was promised eh?
I'll see what I can do...but no promises.
Just a suggestion to Nero, as he watches Rome burn.....try to issue fire blankets.
/bow
Respectfully,