Doctor Archive
Thread: Does anyone have any finite info on the upcomming buff nerf?
Obata
Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:58 pm
#66
Thorkahn wrote:
I understand that none of this is concrete and that is a good reason for being quiet. However, it is not a good reason for not presenting game changes to the community before they are actually made. I would love to have a look at the final list of changes before they are made. And as long as good solid reasons for the changes, related to the "BIG PICTURE", are provided, I think the majority of subscribers would be mature about it.
The whole player base WILL get to see the changes before they hit live. All you have to do is register for the beta. The alpha (Sandbox) testing has to be kept small for logistical purposes. It would be impractical to release a list of changes (other than somewhat vague statements, such as the ones that TH has already posted) before the CU hits beta for exactly the reasons Texxie expressed. Publicly releasing changes that are not yet sure to happen would be unwise.
If there is a coporate agenda, you are not privy to it, and most likely would not even know one exists until the very end. Thats when some big shot exective comes to a meeting and basically scope cuts most everything you want to do, unless it affects the bottom line in a positive direction.
Does it not stand to reason that making the game more fun for the vast majority of players will positively affect the bottom line? The current system makes nearly all PVE too easy (the exceptions being the DWB and, to a lesser extent the Corvette and Geo lab). While it may seem great at first to be able to solo nearly any creature or NPC, the lack of a challenge takes its toll on the number of players who stick with the game.
Bottom line is that this is a product designed to make Sony money.I thinkmost of the money comes from game sales. Then you have to create the income stream to go with it.
Look at the price of the game and the subscrition price. Subscriptions bring in much more than new purchases do.
To do this, one has to create a solid subcriber base. To maintain the subscriber base, you have to either capture people, entice them to join, or have a product that sells itself. Intially I belive the StarWars name sells itself and after that..........
At the moment, my impression is that the changes made to the game have been made to lengthen the current game content, instead of improving content. IE, increase the amount of XP it takes to do anything and presto you have lengthend the average subscriber time. This is a capture technique and not an entice technique.
Cannot much of the criticism over the lack of content be attributed to a lack of challenging content? Let's face it, the game has become too easy for any player who can buy good armor and get doc buffs. I have a regular group of friends with whom I like to group in game. For the last several months we've had a much harder time deciding on things to do, because with the exception of a very few high level areas, any one of us can solo almost anything. I built my doc/cm template to be the ultimate in group support. Not only am I rarely needed in that role, but my 'pure support' character can take on many high level mobs by himself.
Another good technique for this could be nerfing doctor buffs becuase it means it takes MORE TIME to earn the same XP we earn now.
Again, thanks for taking the time to respond and it was not meant as an attack against anyone.
I honestly believe that the devs share the same desire to make this game fun that all of us do. Just their open acknowledgement of the need for major changes attests to that. We need to all remember to keep our minds open, and try to keep sight of the big picture.
Thorkahn
Thu Dec 16, 2004 6:29 pm
#67
I think that subscribers have a right to know what changes are going to be made before they are actually implemented. This should be before beta testing. As I subscriber I would like to know if the changes coming will affect my desire to play the game.
You might be correct that long term more money can come from subsribers. However, the ROI is higher for the sale of the box. I would be suprised if the margin on the subsription side is over 10%. I would bet that Sony made back there initial investment in the game within 6 months after release just from box sales. The subsription service has allot offixed costs attached to it that make it much less profitable in the near term.
As far as the "Challenge" part of the game. In orderfor the game to survive there has to becontent for both types of players. (GROUP vs. SOLO). As a married with children kind of guy, I really don't have the time to mess around with groups. I play the game to have fun and progress through the system. If the only way to make it is in groups, or if it takes even longer to reach elite status, then I am a lost subscriber. As it is I am committed for a year with 4 toons and hope I do not regret the commitment after these changes.
I recognize that some things can only be achieved with groups and that is a good thing. When time permits, rearely for me, I try to participate in groups. I also recognize the value of having content that can only be accomplished with groups. I do like the social aspects of the game.
I think challenge and content are two different beasts. If you are only intersted in crafting, then who gives a rats butt about the combat system. Just fix all the little BS stuff with loot, crafting, and vendors.
Since I play both, I do care about the sytem and there are some little things that could be done to improve it. Overall I say,the game system is good.
Need more challenge, add the harder content to the game. Or, change specific NPCs to be more difficult to solo. CONTENT CONTENT CONTENT. Not system.
I agree that the Devs probably do have our interests at heart. Again, what I do fear is the corporateelement nerfing the best content in favor of marketing. I think JTL is agreat example of this. The development community was very down on the idea of an online StarWars game without space content. It is now obvious that Sony planned this as an upgrade from the begining. An example of how box sales are used tocapture ROI / profitvery rapidly.
vortexala
Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:26 pm
#68
I don't take it as an attack, just a good discussion 
Just a few points I wanted to make here.
I understand wanting the information as soon as possible on things that will completely change the game. And I also understand that hearing from others that 'it really is going to be good!' isn't as satisfying as reading the information yourself. And while I agree that a lot of the forum goers would be mature about the information and not take it as concrete facts, the mob mentality will(and has) rule the forums and drown out the level-headed posts in a deluge of 'omg, screw SOE for taking away x!' posts. It doesn't take much to stir up the forums, really.
As to the content issue. Personally, I feel there really is a lack of content. And what we do have is far too easy(with the few exceptions mentioned previously). But this is why, just yesterday, SOETyrant(Big Boss Of Austin) stated they were hiring 20 more people.They'll be responsible for a lot of the fixes, new content, new publishes, etc. This right here shows a committment to making the game better.
The simple fact that the Devs acknowledge that imbalances with the current combat system, and have started on the Combat Upgrade, shows again that they truly are committed to making this game the best it can be. After meeting them face to face, and seeing the passion these devs have for the game, well... let's just say i'm not worried about the big picture anymore.
Cubsfan22
Fri Dec 24, 2004 3:46 am
#71
well they called publish 9 and 10 the Jedi REVAMP....and that was nothing but a total nerfing!!! Same with CH and the Solo group nerf!!!
toothlessviper
Fri Dec 24, 2004 4:58 pm
#72
I for one would like to know. here is why.
1. If they change buff's to much ill quit.. i have not worked my tail off for a year to make a large scale med's shop just to have it cut down to nothing becouse now we want balance. I know blah blah it will make it better for the blah blah.... Tell that to (me ) after ive spent 100's of hours hunting avian. spent mil's on med clothing and payed for three accounts so i have enough skill points and lots to drop harvesters and or do the prof's i needed to make it work..
please dont give me that ( team work stuff ) its hard to find peole all the time to do things with ingame. we have real lives and have only so much time to play. I dont want to have to find 3 people to do a mission with... I play alone alot, i can log on and go do the thing i want too. if i have to worry about being in a group to do anything fun. well lets say its time to say bye bye.
JTL is a joke.. yay i get to fly a ship.... no really good content ( would not a planet we can only get to by space be cool ) or be able to land the ship! hmmmmm! how about being able to board a ship and have a good fight in space... but nooo we get the same old thing mission, after mission, after mission....only good thing about jtl is it didnt cost me any skill points to do. Ohhhh i really do enjoy being able to get to any planet without a wait.Worth the 30 bucks to me.....
I know this sounds negative, but ive kept playing as everyone i know is leaving. so my fun now is to craft and run my shop, its about all i do anymore. So im a little worried about the nerf.... Keeping info from us does one thing... Makes us wonder whats up and then, when it hits all at one time we get totally pist. giving us info now and letting us debate it with the entire population will at least make us feel like we had a say.. I dont know about all of you but having a few make all the choices for the rest of us does not sit well with me.
anyway i hope they dont blow this ... just getting in my tooth cents....
ForceFat
Sat Dec 25, 2004 8:30 pm
#73
I have many of the same concerns... frankly, if the value of buff packs are reduced (comparitively in the new system, as they are in the current), then my entire game philosophy will be disrupted, making income a factor. I play the game on two front s -- combat for enjoyment and skill advancement.. doctor/crafting and merchandizing for income for my combat side...
if a significant reduction occured in buff value, I would shut down my account. I have spent just too many hours (literally hundreds, if not thousands) building my place in this SWG universe. Changing the universe from what it is to something where I am not in the same place in the economy, is like a country going from one economy to another, to its citizens. As a citizen, I would leave. Likely stop play MMORPG altogether, but maybe go to another one. SWG needs to make stability its mantra, instead of this incessant tweeking that amounts to shooting the hardest working participants in the head.
Corvin
Scylla
Thorkahn
Sun Jan 02, 2005 2:01 pm
#74
I am so glad to hear that more players feel the way I do about changing buffs.
As I said earlier in this thread, changing buffs will not make the game better. It will just make it take longer to achieve higher skill status in the game.
Like you, I have 4 accounts. Three for crafting / making money and one combat. I too would probably terminate all four accounts if buffs are significantly changed in the downward direction.
CONTENTis the only answer to keeping this game going. Yes,altering some of the eliite combat skills will make the combat play more level. For instance, if a Master Swordsmand or Master Rifleman can have meduim / heavy AP weapons with mind attack, then all other elite combatants should have similar capability. Simply adding Carbines, Pistols, etc. that have medium / heavy AP would be a tremendous boom to the game. Both for combat interest and crafting interest.
CONTENT will keep the game alive. Adding new schematics and weapons is content.
Keep up the comments and let the devs know that screwing around with some parts of the game is just not needed and will damage the game.
Vardex
Mon Jan 03, 2005 11:33 am
#75
I am just curious to know how many people out there are familiar with the terms "Customer Satisfaction" or "Voice of the Customer". For those of you who are not familiar with these terms let me break it down to the simplest form by saying that in business the "Customer" dictates the requirements or specifications for the products and services that they purchase; the supplier then has the choice to meet these requirements or lose their customers business to competitors.
I have been reading the SWG Forums for a while now and really not saying a whole lot; I have read several Correspondents’ posts where they have stated that they do not want the Developers to feel like the player community is making demands to them on the development of the game, just suggestions. This has got to be the most ignorant thing I have ever heard... we are the customers, we pay their salaries; their job is to give us what we want in the continuing development of this RPG... not to dictate to us the way that they want the game played so that it aligns with their "Vision" of what in their opinions we should enjoy. Hello!!?
In the real world I am employed as a Quality/Reliability Engineer and a Six Sigma Blackbelt, I will spare you the details of what I do for a living... but lets just say that I get enough reality in my real life, I don’t need more of it in my hobby. If the Developers "Vision" includes making an RPG as frustrating as real-life... then lets just say that their vision of entertainment and mine do not necessarily align.
SOE has a database of every subscribers email address, how many times have you received a customer satisfaction survey? I have two accounts and have been a subscriber for a little over 14 months, no one from SOE has ever contacted me directly and asked me how I like the game, how they could enhance my satisfaction or what my "Vision" of entertainment is. If Correspondents do not effectively convey the communities "demands" then how do developers ensure that the customer is getting what they want? Any valid quality or business system has a metric for customer satisfaction what is SOE’s benchmark; "Silence gives approval"??
SOE needs to realize that we, the players, and our enjoyment of this game should be their focus... not their vison of the "StarWars experience"; they must be made to realize that we have a voice and it will be heard.
SOE needs to realize that we, the players, and our enjoyment of this game should be their focus... not their vison of the "StarWars experience"; they must be made to realize that we have a voice and it will be heard.
Andreas-Shadowfire
Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:36 pm
#76
Well said Vardex.
I also am aQE, now Program Manager, and as such "Customer Satisfaction" and "voice of the customer" terminology rings completely falsein it's application by SOE. Farther up this thread someone pointed out the issues related with game life expectancy and more importantly the fact that the populous "customer" has become accustomed to a certain play environment or experience when we log on. WE PAY FOR THIS EXPERIENCE, and most of us have been paying for it for a year. Do not change that experience, add to it. Use your 20 new employees to generate "fixed" new experiences for us within the existing framework. That way you keep the status quo for those who like it (the majority) and infuse a whole new universe layer with the game's framework.
I managed 4 accounts (JEDI,RIFLEMAN,TKM,RANGER,DOC,AS,ARCH,DE,MERCHANT,ARTISAN,CHEF) until the factory time "fix" and the "improved" resource spawn system on the last publish which made me let go of one account. I have hung in there through Publish 9 & 10 Jedi NERF's. If I am required to invest more time and energy into my hobby in the pursuit of meanial mind nubbing tasks then it will cease to be a hobby and become much closer to real life work and as such will lead me to other pastures.I think I can speak for many people in saying that WoW isappealing justdue to the lack of an SOE tag.
Finally, I have enjoyed the SWG experience and there have been a number of good advances of the game throughout it's life. (Player Citie's, partly successful DE upgrade, Bike sliding fixed, added armor, <10 shuttle waits, house containers actually holding things, JTL was a nice addition, etc. etc) There is also some good discussions on the forums about game improvements. (NPC missionsbecoming more interesting, NPCcity improvements, new "dungeons",etc.) Grow our experience for us the customer, do not place obstacles and barriers to our hobby.
Vardex
Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:34 am
#77
A lot of my Guild-mates have migrated over to WoW, most of them like it... some of them don't.
As I said in my previous post, we have a voice and it will be heard; possibly one closing veteran account at a time. Depending on what this Combat Upgrade does I may be a moving on to greener pastures as well; as a Master Creature Handler I am very well aquainted with SOE's "Balancing" of combat professions... maybe we will just all toss rocks at each other in PvP and be reduced to competing for the title of Grand Master Gnort Slayer in PvE on our servers.
Reminds me of a story I read about a Quebec Indian who killed a Moose that was swimming across a lake by lassoing his antlers from his fishing boat and keeping it out in the water until it drowned.... how the mighty have fallen, I am sure his forefathers are very proud.
DoctorTressth
Mon Jan 10, 2005 8:58 pm
#78
The recent posts about the combat upgrade have worried me enough that I want to post to the Devs. I assume this thread is the best place for it, about the looming Buff Nerf.
My number one concern is this idea that the players don't want to be able to sole rancors, or that PvE combat is too easy now under the doc buff system and this is "wrong" somehow and will be corrected so PvE is more challenging. My understanding is Doc Buffs will be nerfed somehow to make us more vunerable in PvE. If you want to lose a lot of players this is a good idea, if you want player satisfaction it is a bad idea. Whether thecurrent PvEsystem isn't challenging enough or not, the fact is that for one year players have played under it, taking away player power is always tricky without compensating rewards and in general a bad idea.
Here is my fear, today a PvE template can solo a rancor, there is no content, it is boring the loot is minor and therefore, so what. Ifafter the combat upgrade a PvE template has a hard time soloing a rancor, it is still boring, the loot is still minor. there is still no contentthe player will not be happy. Making a task more difficult is not equal to Content. It is just more difficult. Mandating group hunting will not make the community better, it will just make the community more frustrated. The truth is most players want to be able to play somewhat independantly. SWG already has a reliance on other characters that chaffs for most players, more forced reliance is not enriching.
Right now there are NPC's that need groups to kill like nightsisters andkrayts or DWB or Corvette. So if you want a challenge in PvE it exists. If you want a group PvE oppurtunity is exists already.The answer to easy PvE is to create more difficult scenarios, not to take the power away from the players who now will have a hard time fighting the same boring creatures.
If the Dev's do make PvE more difficult you must compensate with something to get the players excited and interested. For a start loot has to be increased if group hunting becomes mandatory so that loot can be shared within a group. Many games are ruined by group quests with loot fights within the group for anemic loot drops.
Secondly, new quests and new content must happen at the same time you take the power away, to just take the power away in a vacumm will send many players running from the game. Yes, players want game candy to get them excited for a week or so now and then, so give them candy/loot/quests. The game is supposed to be fun.
I am really worried that the PvE part of the combat upgrade will seriously harm the game play and cause already disgruntled players to leave. Please think hard as too how to balance it, making players weaker vs creatures (since a doc nerf seems practically promised, and maybe an armor nerf) has to be incredibly compensated for. But my advice is it is just a bad idea to begin with. Yes, balance the professions, don't weaken the PvE ratio, just add more interesting scenarios to PvE.