Doctor Archive
Thread: Just a Heads up from a TC regular.
Marrow1
Sat Oct 08, 2005 10:21 am
#53
You brought up a movie where a bh/cm was toasting a defender as an example of "over powered healing". I simply explained what was really going on.
MsNiL wrote:
First of all, you should not compare a MBH against a Defender. You should compare a Master Pikeman or Master TKA against Defender. The BH vs Jedi is another discussion completely IMO. I am talking about using 4000 Doctor along with something like Master Pikeman here, creating a monster tank such as the one in the video. When you start to see entire guilds with R.I.S Armor and Pikes, then you just know something is wrong. And you can only thank 4000doc for that.
The solid BH counter against A.I thoughis daze.Time a Disarm shot right before you believe the A.I will run out. It will stop him from using A.I, and with 0 health left you can almost defeat him with a firearm strike if you wish.
I doubt there's many Defenders who would even consider to use A.I in pvp right now. The tactic you mentioned is hillarious, but it's easily countered. Paralyze, Disarm, Stasis, Concussion Shot, Panic Shot etc.
Ofcourse MCM's are the bane of Defenders. A Defender is slow, and against a MCM they crawl. If you do not have a very decent saber (+600 at least with decent speed) you will never be able to dish out enough damage in time. I have defeated multiple MDef/MLS templates with my MCM/MDoc, simply by burning out their force, keeping out of reach, applying new states where appropiate. Sure, it takes 15min since I do not have any combat skills, but it works.
The event that a MDef actually wins is more often the "Cannot Knockdown Recovery while being Knocked Down" bug than any sign of superioty. That's my opinion.
A BH have more to fear from an Enhancer with a good saber IMO.
No def uses AI. They do not need to against a pistoleer. They block 40% of shots and midigate 60%+ of damage. With infusion going they can heal faster than a pistoleer can damage. With channel going they can regen faster than aura and infusion consume force. So if they choose not to attack and just stand there there is nothing a pistoleer can do about it.
Some-Guy
Sat Oct 08, 2005 10:48 am
#54
Marrow1 wrote:
TC2
Version 0.136519
-Increased action cost on all heal abilities
I saw these numbers on a different thread but have not confirmed them.
bacta shot : 15% action 10% mind
bacta jab : 13% action 5% mind
bacta spray : 20% action 12% mind
bacta toss : 17% action 10% mind
IMO this will be a very large crushing blow to anyone with healing in thier template. I wish one day they would get smart and add an eff line to counter these costs so that someone who invests a lot of skill points in a healing prof can still play a healer role. With such high action cost you will be out of action in no time, KD'ed, and dead.
If the above is accurate, I'd have to wonder what the point of having a mind bar is any more? Seems regardless of your build, you'll always run out of action long before the mind was drained. Seems PvP/PvE just went from the battle of the blue bars to the battle of the green bars, regardless of your template.
I guess jedi need mind bars so they have something other than force limiting thier healing...
MsNiL
Sat Oct 08, 2005 10:55 am
#55
Forcecost.
Halae wrote:
Cannot upkeep my guildrole cannot upkeep my guildrole. What exactly are you trying to do in PVE for the 1500 heal to be so damned inneficient? I see 4xxx doctors and CM's keeping groups alive without problems, and no they're not spamming heals.
About those pikeman videos. The second video shows him eating SYNTHSTEAK at 0:12, effectively absorbing 44% of all damage, 4 jedi now do the damage of 2. At 0:33 he dies and still has the synthsteak on. None of the jedi had their speed buffs on. His ruby bliel also went from a stack of 10 to a stack of 5,hence 5 stims were used. Total bacta shots used: 4. Conclusion: doctor is totally overpowered. /sarcasm off.
I cant fail to notice all the jedi whiners who come to these boards because they have lost to a non-jedi or a BH seem to miss the fact that the non-jedi had doctor buffs, spice, drink and food and actually managed his stomach to allow him to use ruby bliel and synthsteak while on the other hand, most jedi I've fought run around with nothing but their force aura and infusion macros on.
Food and drink more than makes up for the 0.5x difference. Stop whining and get a clue(might not be nice but simply put, some jedi need to).
The greatest no#1 issue with amaster force healer who try to take their role seriouslyis forcecost.
When I say I am x0.25 as efficient as a doctor, I am talking about the time a doctor can upkeep a group compared to the time a master force healer can upkeep a group. If you take your role seriously, it's entirely possible to waste your force in 1minute in pvp. Regulary I am out in 2 minutes. I am almost always forced to run off early on.
This becouse Jedi regenerate force 1/4 as fast as mind when standing, and you cannot boost this regeneration through the use of food or spice. You can boost mind with up to 33% using food and spice.Force Regenis not effected by sitting down either. Even if you invest in Force Meditate (28 skillpoints) you can only boost regenerationtime with x3. Every human may boost their mind regenation rate withx4 just by sitting down.
Becouse of this, if you heal someone for 3000 damage, you will need 66 seconds of rest.
If you heal someone 3000 damage with doctor (bactajab+bactashot), you will need 18 seconds of rest without food/spice/sitting down.
If you heal someone 3000 damage with doctor (bactajab+bactashot), you will need 18 seconds of rest without food/spice/sitting down.
If you completely drain your forcebar, you will need 18:30 minutes of rest.
If you completely drain your mindbar, you will need 2 minutes of rest, 30 seconds if you sit down. (this without food/spice).
You may think the ability to heal 1500 damage, or full healthbar is all fun and games, but once you tried it you would gladly go back to doctor, becouse you will quickly quickly learn that you are out of force in notime.
TenshiHanaKinu
Sat Oct 08, 2005 11:05 am
#56
Doctor is a pure healing profession. It does not have KD-Recovery like Master Force Healer does, it does not have Offensive abilities like Master Force Healer does (which make Force Healer much like Combat Medic) and it does not have the ability to use its abilities while KD'ed. So maybe in outright Damage you do not win, but in the majority of PvP situations you do have the advantage, and also the ability to easily pick up other skills that would make you exceptionally more powerful per skill point spent.
Shariane
Sat Oct 08, 2005 11:34 am
#57
Two of the videos you posted come from the server where we are seeing an increase of healing almost being abused by the inhabitants of another server trying to prove they are "l33t."
I took doctor to help my guild and friends. Without all the enhancements and stuff, I am not the uber character. So for the developers to even do something like this...
It's like punishing everyone for the actions of the few.
MsNil it seems to be a common theme for you to support anything that knocks down a profession. You were on this trend with the experience changes and I see you doing it once again.
Jedi are not meant to be all powerful, invulnerable or to outstrip any other profession. They have different abilities and powers outsider what non-force sensitive people have access to. A jedi can be killed, A jedi does grow old, in short a jedi has all the limitations that the average being has.
People need to get off the "elite" and "alpha class" trends and look at what is really causing the imbalances. Are their exploits that SOE is ignoring?
I took doctor to help my guild and friends. Without all the enhancements and stuff, I am not the uber character. So for the developers to even do something like this...
It's like punishing everyone for the actions of the few.
MsNil it seems to be a common theme for you to support anything that knocks down a profession. You were on this trend with the experience changes and I see you doing it once again.
Jedi are not meant to be all powerful, invulnerable or to outstrip any other profession. They have different abilities and powers outsider what non-force sensitive people have access to. A jedi can be killed, A jedi does grow old, in short a jedi has all the limitations that the average being has.
People need to get off the "elite" and "alpha class" trends and look at what is really causing the imbalances. Are their exploits that SOE is ignoring?
Marrow1
Sat Oct 08, 2005 12:13 pm
#58
MsNiL wrote:
Please download theese four videos and try to say the same, I can assure you you cannot find any Jedi movies similar to theese ones.:
Compliments of the bounty hunter boards m.cm/m.bh vs m.def/m.ls
Compliments of SamuraiJack' on Lowca Tanking 101
Compliments of LOS from Bloodfin Bloodfin tank
Another one compliments of LOS from Bloodfin Bloodfin tanking
Message Edited by MsNiL on 10-08-2005 05:33 AM
Take any M. Def with 4000 healer and 0002 enh can sit there and chanel and take all the damage a Doc/Pistols can dish out all day long. As a BH/Pistols/4000 cm I have run up to this type of defender build and they just stand there and there is nothing I could do and believe me I have very nice pistols, food, etc etc.
The simple fact is that any build can be the perfact match for any other build. The one move where the defender is getting toasted by a M. CM/BH. This is the perfect match up in the CM favor as his weapons are not countered by the defenders def. A healer or Enhancer build would have crushed that BH.
TenshiHanaKinu
Sat Oct 08, 2005 12:45 pm
#59
MsNiL, except for one thing: The Meleer got incapped. I've seen Defenders do that, and if they're about to get KOed they can just spam avoid... AND still be doing damage. Non-Jedi can't avoid Incap.
BastiWan
Sat Oct 08, 2005 1:46 pm
#60
Well most affected people feel offended by this nerf, especially the omnipresent, ultra-boring MBH/MCM or MBH/another weapon prof/CM4000. Of course, Jedi-ganking oops I meant Jedi-hunting will be less easy with this. But to be honest, thats just fair. I often encountered Combat Medics who had with all their food like no mind cost for a heal of 1k or even more. That is making the CM stronger than a Jedi. Why? Easy: While the BH/CM can go on for like hours the jedi's force will somewhen run out. So, who's stronger now? The Jedi, the defender of the galaxy, master in combat and spiritual leader or the Combat Medic, the normal field medician with his bag o' tools?
It was always clear that a Jedi should be as strong as 1.5 fighting chars. With this non-stopping heal abilities this proportion is changed. It is not only affecting BH-Jedi-interaction but also normal PvP. It is less thrilling to fight an enemy who can stay alive for hours! As the Devs said, fights should be more interactive and thrilling - this is negatively affected by constant heals.
Every healing profession will have to adopt to the new situation of no longer being able to spam their heals and then we will see who accomplishs this adoption best and shows that he is truly the master of his profession. I can only welcome this nerf though I play a Combat Medic/Carbineer with my alt, too.
So: Stop whining and learn to play! Being able to adopt to nerfs is a sign of masterful playing skills, too!
It was always clear that a Jedi should be as strong as 1.5 fighting chars. With this non-stopping heal abilities this proportion is changed. It is not only affecting BH-Jedi-interaction but also normal PvP. It is less thrilling to fight an enemy who can stay alive for hours! As the Devs said, fights should be more interactive and thrilling - this is negatively affected by constant heals.
Every healing profession will have to adopt to the new situation of no longer being able to spam their heals and then we will see who accomplishs this adoption best and shows that he is truly the master of his profession. I can only welcome this nerf though I play a Combat Medic/Carbineer with my alt, too.
So: Stop whining and learn to play! Being able to adopt to nerfs is a sign of masterful playing skills, too!
TenshiHanaKinu
Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:16 pm
#61
BastiWan wrote:
It is less thrilling to fight an enemy who can stay alive for hours!
Jedi Defenders with Channel and Avoid Incap?
Or hell... "It is less thrilling to fight an enemy who is already almost twice as strong as you coming onto the battlefield."
The Jedi in this game are NOT Defenders of the galaxy, masters in combat, nor spiritual leaders. They aren't even JEDI.
BastiWan wrote:
Stop whining and learn to play!
Message Edited by TenshiHanaKinu on 10-08-2005 07:18 PM
MsNiL
Sat Oct 08, 2005 6:18 pm
#62
I am sorry, but you are not making any sense.
Shariane wrote:
MsNil it seems to be a common theme for you to support anything that knocks down a profession. You were on this trend with the experience changes and I see you doing it once again.
Jedi are not meant to be all powerful, invulnerable or to outstrip any other profession. They have different abilities and powers outsider what non-force sensitive people have access to. A jedi can be killed, A jedi does grow old, in short a jedi has all the limitations that the average being has.
MrDecipher
Sat Oct 08, 2005 6:55 pm
#63
All this change does is make it more of a numbers game in PvP. 1 on 1 the duels will last just as long because all your action will be used healng or KD recory forceing you to use default attack only more most of the fight. 2 on 1 there will be little to no chance for the person getting outnumbered because you will have no action to attack back at 2 different people.
Heals are fine as they are if they think they are overpowered just increase mind cost. Thats what mind is for anyhow.
Heals are fine as they are if they think they are overpowered just increase mind cost. Thats what mind is for anyhow.
ice33b
Sat Oct 08, 2005 11:58 pm
#64
PvP is gonna be faster as a result I bet. Most people with Doc/CM healing mixed in their Sword/Pike and BH/Rifle temps will probably drop it for more combat skills turning PvP into a battle of who is more suicidal and whose action dies first. Any healers that get involved are gonna find themselves useless and dead as well in a few seconds, pretty much making Doc and CM only useful for guild hunts.
BastiWan
Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:43 am
#65
Even a MDef with Channel and AI cannot stay alive for hours, not even for more then some minutes. Somewhen he will not be able to use his channel cause his health, action and mind are too low and to be honest nearly no one still uses AI in PvP. This means mainly certain death. Tenshi, if you're focusing on fighting a Jedi one-on-one it is almost clear that the Jedi should have the advantage BUT there is not only One-on-One-Combat. Take another friend with you and the Jedi will be far more easy beatable.
TenshiHanaKinu wrote:
BastiWan wrote:
It is less thrilling to fight an enemy who can stay alive for hours!
Jedi Defenders with Channel and Avoid Incap?
Or hell... "It is less thrilling to fight an enemy who is already almost twice as strong as you coming onto the battlefield."
The Jedi in this game are NOT Defenders of the galaxy, masters in combat, nor spiritual leaders. They aren't even JEDI.
The synopsis of your post is "Wah, Jedi should be stronger than everyone else."
BastiWan wrote:
Stop whining and learn to play!
Message Edited by TenshiHanaKinu on 10-08-2005 07:18 PM
The weird thing is that you conclude something I've never said. I had to deal with a LOT of nerfs yet in many professions also in my time of being a force-user (if you like that term more...). Jedi got nerfed as well, they aren't that uberstrong profession anymore and I kinda like it. It just motivates me to take my friends with me when engaging enemies. But I won't accept that a supporting class-profession (which CM and Doc are) is stronger than a Bountyhunter, Rifleman, Swordman, Jedi or whatever combat profession. This nerf is in my opinion acceptable.