Development Cycle Archive
Thread: Entertainer Quest
Warryyr
Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:49 am
#92
Thunderheart wrote:
Gednia wrote:
Th, is there any room for allowing a musician to compose his or her own songs, maybe thru use of a sound palet or something?
i think this would also make for a nice quest, and could be rewarded with a composers modual, and BF healing modual.
Ive said this before, but medics can work beyond thier base of operations (medical centers) i sure wish we (dancers and musicians)could.
Way back in pre-launch days, this was a big topic. There were some really great hopes and discussions. Unfortunately, there is a gray area were reality, legality and virtuality don't mix very well. You see if it was a music creation tool that was totally open-ended, players would re-create existing music that is licensced and also demand creator's rights on things they had created in game which makes it a big legal mess.
There is a lot of support for trying to make a tool that is somewhere in between a totally open ended tool and what exists now, but that would be a much longer term development item.
Deady wrote:
A computer wont be able to judge anything of any worth.
Alternative suggestions:
Givethem two player dances - let two players join together and perform a dance! It takes two to tango you know TH.
Give them proper effects. Not a shiny disco ball that appears for 1 second and then dissapears. Give them lights, and smoke effects that last for a minute and follow their performance.
Give them music worth dancing to. The live music played by musicians is hardly dance worthy. Either put jukeboxes in the game or give musicians some more funky tunes to play!
Two player dances is something we would very much like to see, but that is all new technology. It is something we will see at some point, but I dont know when...
*rubs his eyes with his fists, making a squeaky window sound as he does*
*eyes bug 3 feet out in front of his face, then bounce back in their sockets*
Nice to see ya in here, TH. Hope your vacation was good. Though you did work a bit while you were supposed to *not* be working 
Frustrations regarding Entertainer professions aside, I just wanted to say I do appreciate you taking time out of your vacation to provide us with some answers to questions. That was very cool of you - and not necessary but much appreciated.
Jaggid
Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:53 am
#93
Thunderheart wrote:
Gednia wrote:Th, is there any room for allowing a musician to compose his or her own songs, maybe thru use of a sound palet or something?
i think this would also make for a nice quest, and could be rewarded with a composers modual, and BF healing modual.
Ive said this before, but medics can work beyond thier base of operations (medical centers) i sure wish we (dancers and musicians)could.
Way back in pre-launch days, this was a big topic. There were some really great hopes and discussions. Unfortunately, there is a gray area were reality, legality and virtuality don't mix very well. You see if it was a music creation tool that was totally open-ended, players would re-create existing music that is licensced and also demand creator's rights on things they had created in game which makes it a big legal mess.
There is a lot of support for trying to make a tool that is somewhere in between a totally open ended tool and what exists now, but that would be a much longer term development item.
Deady wrote:A computer wont be able to judge anything of any worth.Alternative suggestions:Give them two player dances - let two players join together and perform a dance! It takes two to tango you know TH.Give them proper effects. Not a shiny disco ball that appears for 1 second and then dissapears. Give them lights, and smoke effects that last for a minute and follow their performance.Give them music worth dancing to. The live music played by musicians is hardly dance worthy. Either put jukeboxes in the game or give musicians some more funky tunes to play!Two player dances is something we would very much like to see, but that is all new technology. It is something we will see at some point, but I dont know when...
this isnt entirly true though thunder heart, for example wedding singers sing songs at weddings all the time without regards for liscensing and so fourth. People recreate songs at talent shows, like american idol, and so fourth and so on. Playing music in a game is no more then for recreational use and would in no way impeed anyone from buying a cd because the swg version is better. the sounds made by the instruments are totally different from modern day musical instruments.
guitarists get tought how to play there favorite bands songs as it is and pay for the time, and no liscensing is impeeded.
The point is here my friend there should be no problem in me picking up an instrument in game or real life and jamming out to one of my favorite tunes, the reason being is the music played in game is isolated to strictly in game, its not being pushed out on websites or otherwise where musicians would have a problem.
The only thing i can say is dont give creators rights on anything made in game, And dont allow it to be scripted/recroded for auto play.
Instead the interface used should be one that someone can use program in a song theyd like to play then press repeat, with a checker of course. once the box is closed the musician would have to then re-enter the data to stream. this would mimic someone pulling out a guitar in central park and playing a rolling stones tune. its not written or recorded anywhere thus its not illegal. If people want to make it easier to play these tunes then use the everyday scailing sytem tought to every musician who learns to play. with the starwars type sounds..
For example you play A it plays a starwars A.
Another option would be allow it to be played in real time with a 5-10 second stream out so a player could hear immediatly what he/she just played but it would take 5 seconds to stream. I also dont agree with people creating a script with song notes, and being able to push a play type button that could be borederline illegal but i think in no way would it cause legality issues for you or lucas arts.
Come on guys its a game, im not making money off of someones song or preventing them from making money by downloading mp3's im playing 3 dog night on my sithphone thingamajiger =)
Auraveda
Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:18 pm
#94
Thunderheart wrote:Way back in pre-launch days, this was a big topic. There were some really great hopes and discussions. Unfortunately, there is a gray area were reality, legality and virtuality don't mix very well. You see if it was a music creation tool that was totally open-ended, players would re-create existing music that is licensced and also demand creator's rights on things they had created in game which makes it a big legal mess.
Yeah, I suppose that the folks over at ASCAP might be a bit confused if you tried to apply for a performance license for the Theed Cantina. Actually... would something like that be possible? Since it'd be nearly impossibly to report specific songs played, maybe you guys could figure out what the average daily foot trafic for the Cantinas are and work out something with the folks at ASCAP where you pay them x amount of money to cover any song that might be played there, listened to by X many people. Just a thought...I don't see how original compositions would be a problem at all, just have the legal department put a strongly worded item in the EULA about how any intellectual property created by the player in the game becomes the property of Sony, or something like that.
LeBob
Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:20 pm
#95
TH
The Entertainer Quest is really, really, really not what I had hoped it would be... it is much, much, much less.
I am by far communicating this to you in a toned-down manner... know this.
I am by far communicating this to you in a toned-down manner... know this.
Groovymarlin
Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:47 pm
#96
Yes, I'm a little disappointed in the extent of the entertainer quest as it exists so far on TC, though the seeds of some creative things are definitely there. The problems, as I see it:
1.I assume I can onlydo this quest once. After my master dancer completes it, what next? Will it evolve into some new quests? Maybe qualify me for some new missions or something?
2. The standard entertainer missions are still pitiful. Typical mission whether taken from an NPC or a terminal consists of a waypoint 7-12km away, with a payout from 120-200 credits. Please. That doesn't even cover round-trip shuttle fare. Add to that the mechanics of the mission itself are horrible - go to a cantina, hotel, or theater in some deserted NPC city and play or dance for 10 minutes to no audience. Mission accomplished. *yawn*
Could you integrate some of the ideas from the quest into our regular entertainer missions? For example:
a. Make NPCs like the judges spawn to watch the performance and reward you with higher credits or other goodies if you fulfill their requests.
b. Make successfully completed missions count towards your "fame" or "entertainer" rating, eventually allowing you to get better missions or perks of some kind.
c. Scale missions to groups like combat missions. A group of three master musicians and a master dancer should be able to get a mission that pays a lot more than 120 credits! Mission requirement could be longer, like 30-40 minutes instead of 10. But make it worthwhile.
Heck you'd make a lot of people happy if you just doubled or tripled the payout on entertainer missions, for now. But it would be nice to see additional content or mechanics involved as well.
TH, is this entertainer quest going out next Tuesday with publish 9? For some reason I thought it was scheduled for a mini-publish after 9.
Drygo
Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:01 pm
#97
Thunderheart wrote:
Gednia wrote:
Th, is there any room for allowing a musician to compose his or her own songs, maybe thru use of a sound palet or something?
i think this would also make for a nice quest, and could be rewarded with a composers modual, and BF healing modual.
Ive said this before, but medics can work beyond thier base of operations (medical centers) i sure wish we (dancers and musicians)could.
Way back in pre-launch days, this was a big topic. There were some really great hopes and discussions. Unfortunately, there is a gray area were reality, legality and virtuality don't mix very well. You see if it was a music creation tool that was totally open-ended, players would re-create existing music that is licensced and also demand creator's rights on things they had created in game which makes it a big legal mess.
There is a lot of support for trying to make a tool that is somewhere in between a totally open ended tool and what exists now, but that would be a much longer term development item.
Deady wrote:
A computer wont be able to judge anything of any worth.
Alternative suggestions:
Givethem two player dances - let two players join together and perform a dance! It takes two to tango you know TH.
Give them proper effects. Not a shiny disco ball that appears for 1 second and then dissapears. Give them lights, and smoke effects that last for a minute and follow their performance.
Give them music worth dancing to. The live music played by musicians is hardly dance worthy. Either put jukeboxes in the game or give musicians some more funky tunes to play!
Two player dances is something we would very much like to see, but that is all new technology. It is something we will see at some point, but I dont know when...
Hehe...It's not *completely* new technology. You can dance with a partner on The Sims Online. 
But, I completely understand that the coding on SWG is completely different than TSO. If somehow you could have the amazing richness of SWG and combine it with the object and person interaction you have on TSO, you'd have a pretty astounding game. Not that SWG isn't astounding already.
Thank you for your answers, though. It is always nice to see that a dev is reading and responding
TygerBlueEyes
Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:54 pm
#98
Hey TH. I remember that line from beta, but wouldn't that be like sueing the guitar maker for what the musicain did? Or even the paper company for that the song writer did? The game would only be the instrument. Plus you would need to show what $$$ that the players gain off it, right?
Raezer
Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:35 pm
#99
What aboutclientsideonly music. Bascially when you go listen to a musican a Window Media popsup, you throw in a cd orstart playing some of themusic that is on your own computer.Ofcourse you be the only personhearing the musicbut it bebetter than hearing the same crud over and over again. I mean it be cool to hear some wookiee musican playing Metallica 
Reiella
Fri Jun 18, 2004 12:06 am
#100
Jaggid wrote:
this isnt entirly true though thunder heart, for example wedding singers sing songs at weddings all the time without regards for liscensing and so fourth. People recreate songs at talent shows, like american idol, and so fourth and so on. Playing music in a game is no more then for recreational use and would in no way impeed anyone from buying a cd because the swg version is better. the sounds made by the instruments are totally different from modern day musical instruments.
guitarists get tought how to play there favorite bands songs as it is and pay for the time, and no liscensing is impeeded.
The point is here my friend there should be no problem in me picking up an instrument in game or real life and jamming out to one of my favorite tunes, the reason being is the music played in game is isolated to strictly in game, its not being pushed out on websites or otherwise where musicians would have a problem.
The only thing i can say is dont give creators rights on anything made in game, And dont allow it to be scripted/recroded for auto play.
Instead the interface used should be one that someone can use program in a song theyd like to play then press repeat, with a checker of course. once the box is closed the musician would have to then re-enter the data to stream. this would mimic someone pulling out a guitar in central park and playing a rolling stones tune. its not written or recorded anywhere thus its not illegal. If people want to make it easier to play these tunes then use the everyday scailing sytem tought to every musician who learns to play. with the starwars type sounds..
For example you play A it plays a starwars A.
Another option would be allow it to be played in real time with a 5-10 second stream out so a player could hear immediatly what he/she just played but it would take 5 seconds to stream. I also dont agree with people creating a script with song notes, and being able to push a play type button that could be borederline illegal but i think in no way would it cause legality issues for you or lucas arts.
Come on guys its a game, im not making money off of someones song or preventing them from making money by downloading mp3's im playing 3 dog night on my sithphone thingamajiger =)
Gotta bzzt some stuff there.
There's such a thing as an ASCAP General Use License. Guess what? Those folks are supposed to have one. Anyone who does performance [like say, Dance Recitals with Modern music] needs to have that license.
The Wedding Singer instance is most often a situation where it's "small fry", and the entity not caring. For just some odd ball reason, I'm thinking that ASCAP won't consider Sony a small fry...
Further, Fair Use/Personal Use doesn't apply, as, while it isn't being pushed out to the web, it is being pushed out potential to how ever many people exist on your galaxy. Also, Sony would be liable for it, as they are acting as a distribution medium [in a mostly direct rendition of the situation with Napster].
Most of your "it's legal" examples ironically enough fall squarely in quasi-legal, it's illegal, but the entities involved don't really care.
PlayeroftheDay
Fri Jun 18, 2004 12:19 am
#101
Reiella wrote:
Jaggid wrote:
this isnt entirly true though thunder heart, for example wedding singers sing songs at weddings all the time without regards for liscensing and so fourth. People recreate songs at talent shows, like american idol, and so fourth and so on. Playing music in a game is no more then for recreational use and would in no way impeed anyone from buying a cd because the swg version is better. the sounds made by the instruments are totally different from modern day musical instruments.
guitarists get tought how to play there favorite bands songs as it is and pay for the time, and no liscensing is impeeded.
The point is here my friend there should be no problem in me picking up an instrument in game or real life and jamming out to one of my favorite tunes, the reason being is the music played in game is isolated to strictly in game, its not being pushed out on websites or otherwise where musicians would have a problem.
The only thing i can say is dont give creators rights on anything made in game, And dont allow it to be scripted/recroded for auto play.
Instead the interface used should be one that someone can use program in a song theyd like to play then press repeat, with a checker of course. once the box is closed the musician would have to then re-enter the data to stream. this would mimic someone pulling out a guitar in central park and playing a rolling stones tune. its not written or recorded anywhere thus its not illegal. If people want to make it easier to play these tunes then use the everyday scailing sytem tought to every musician who learns to play. with the starwars type sounds..
For example you play A it plays a starwars A.
Another option would be allow it to be played in real time with a 5-10 second stream out so a player could hear immediatly what he/she just played but it would take 5 seconds to stream. I also dont agree with people creating a script with song notes, and being able to push a play type button that could be borederline illegal but i think in no way would it cause legality issues for you or lucas arts.
Come on guys its a game, im not making money off of someones song or preventing them from making money by downloading mp3's im playing 3 dog night on my sithphone thingamajiger =)
Gotta bzzt some stuff there.
There's such a thing as an ASCAP General Use License. Guess what? Those folks are supposed to have one. Anyone who does performance [like say, Dance Recitals with Modern music] needs to have that license.
The Wedding Singer instance is most often a situation where it's "small fry", and the entity not caring. For just some odd ball reason, I'm thinking that ASCAP won't consider Sony a small fry...
Further, Fair Use/Personal Use doesn't apply, as, while it isn't being pushed out to the web, it is being pushed out potential to how ever many people exist on your galaxy. Also, Sony would be liable for it, as they are acting as a distribution medium [in a mostly direct rendition of the situation with Napster].
Most of your "it's legal" examples ironically enough fall squarely in quasi-legal, it's illegal, but the entities involved don't really care.
How about the fact that I don't want some smartass teeny bopper making her own rendition of "Hit me baby, one more time."? Talk about really killing the immersion factor in this game.
Warryyr
Fri Jun 18, 2004 12:25 am
#102
Here's an idea for a quest, that has just been kicking around the Musician forums. I can'ttake credit for it, but I have some ideas that might expand on it a bit. It revolves around Entertainers being spies and gathering information. As entertainers, we often find ourselves privy to a variety of information, and we overhear a LOT of conversation. This is just a small example of a quest that i've devised in my head:
This could initially start as missions from NPC's (perhaps originating from those little side rooms that are rarely occupied in NPC Cantinas). Something akin to "NPCGuy over in Dee'ja Peak, Naboo has been sticking his nose in Borvo's business, where it don't belong. Head to their cantina, he usually hangs out there.See if you hear them saying anything about Borvo the Hutt."
Upon arriving in the Dee'ja Peak cantina, maybe you see a system message pop up that says "You overhear NPCGuy2 mention the name NPCGuy." If you head near their table, and start playing, maybe they'll start listening to you (random tipping by them would be nice, for some extra income!). Gradually they mention that NPCGuy will be showing up soon. This could be a short amount of time, or longer after some lengthy chatting by them over their recent activities, depending on the level of the mission. Eventually, he shows up and mentions that their next run against Borvo will hit his Spice channels on Rori. Then you're instructed to return to the NPC who gave you the mission. When you tell the information you learned to the NPC, there could be multiple options - and you have to choose the one that is most likely what they're looking for (Spice channels on Rori will be robbed next - only answerable upon listening to the thieves/smugglers/whoever you've spied on).
The people you spy oncould also say "This place is crawling with spies, he's run off to Theed" and you'd have to then head to Theed, see if you overhear someone mention him (or a system message could say "You recognize the unmistakeable voice of NPCGuy") and then get the information that way, and keep following him. Folks along the way (NPC fellow entertainer spies, or even fellow entertainer players in the NPC cantinas could fill ya in!) could also give you some credits and say "He's on his way to Coronet Cantina" and you'd have to keep going, tracking the target down.
If at any time you fail to keep flourishing and really trying to "perform" for the folks you're spying on (notunlike how managers are now judging performances),you can arouse their suspicion - resulting (worst case scenario) in you being incapacitated (NOT deathblowed - very much how Stormtroopers instant incap you when you disrespect them), they should "It's a spy, let's get outta here!"and your mission is failed. If, however, you fail 3 entertainer spy missions in 10 minutes, usual incap rules apply and you must clone (if you're not resurrected by a Doc).
I think this would add quite a bit of content for Entertainers, and it would even encourage players in NPC Cantinas to pay attention, and help out anyone on a mission. Heck even a Cantina patron can get in on it - then players could tip each other for helping them find their objective.
These missions should pay top dollar - something very worthwhile. Information is valuable, and spying is a dangerous business.
Thanks for reading.
Chewato
Fri Jun 18, 2004 12:29 am
#103
And even most 'wedding singers', church choirs, or even cover bands will have written copies of the music (a copy rightable document) and if you read the small print on music it will say you are allowed to play it for small groups (and most folks would include churches and weddings as small) as long as the material is not recorded for sale.
Warryyr
Fri Jun 18, 2004 12:39 am
#104
How about the fact that I don't want some smartass teeny bopper making her own rendition of "Hit me baby, one more time."? Talk about really killing the immersion factor in this game.
You got that right. That would suck.
Also, consider the scenario thatyou put a lot of time composing a SWG song. I mean, this thing rocks and sounds cool. It's a hit across all galaxies. Everyone loves it. Then it gets put into the song for backgroup music somewhere, since it's so popular. Now, you made it with SWG tools, so technically it wasn't yours, yet you composed it and it's now used in the game. Does Sony really want to deal with that kind of mess? There's just lots of weird legal problems with having people play anything they want to on an open-ended musical interface.