Development Cycle Archive
Thread: Publish 6: Released Wednesday Morning
KgAutobahn wrote:
Im starting to get REALLY tired of the smugglers whining about how a hard time they are going to get. You are SMUGGLERS! You are´nt supposed to have an easy time. Smuggling is illegal. You had to see this coming sooner or later. This just adds another dimension to the game.
And one more things. Have seen rebells whining about how this is unfair, the same to you. Do you except life to be easy as a rebell in a imperial controlled galaxy?
Sorry you're tired of reading about it. What profession do you play? Imagine that the devs decided to give YOUR profession's abilities away to a faction and we'll see how happily you take it.
Since I haven't previously posted on this issue outside of the smuggler forum, I'll outline the argument here.
The profession system in this game is based on certain guiding principles. First and foremost is that no single player can do everything at once. That is why there is a hard and fast 250 point cap on skill points. You can spend your skill points however you like, but once they're gone, they're gone, unless you're willing to give up abilities to get them back. This is a key of the profession design and it helps foster profession interdependence because, as stated, no one can do everything themselves. I can't make my own armor or food. I have to go to someone else to do that, because I spent my skill points on becoming a smuggler, among other things.
What is smuggling exactly? I don't mean what do smugglers do in the game, because that sure isn't smuggling. At the present, we're slice/spice vendors, occasional faction point sellers, and we've got some pistol specials. We don't really play a major role in the game because we're kind of a directionless profession. Smuggling is moving illegal or taxed items from point A to point B without getting caught in the process. That's what smuggling is, and that's what smugglers do. And in this game, that's what smugglers WANT to do, but haven't. We haven't done so because nothing has been illegal. There are no taxes or tariffs to avoid. There is no contraband.
Well, along comes Publish 6 and the Imperial Crackdown. Contraband is implemented. This DIRECTLY affects smugglers because it goes to the very core of what they do and what they OUGHT to be doing in this game. Fundamentally, it directly implicates our unique role in this game's constellation of professions. Smugglers have been waiting since launch for abilities like this, and the crackdown's version of contraband doesn't even go far enough. That's beside the point, however, because at least it does implement SOME changes in our favor. Or does it?
At the same time that contraband and smuggler abilities to avoid contraband are being introduced, Imperials are given a free pass to scans if they are overt or if they are high ranking coverts (yes, folks, we DID read the GCW and In Testing forums, thanks). What's the practical effect of this? Imperials are given 100% success rates at moving contraband from A to B without being detected. Compare that to a MASTER smuggler who gets at best 95% success rates. Compare that to the NOVICE smuggler who only gets 15%.
Now consider the fact that both the master AND the novice have invested skill points in obtaining their 95% and 15% success rates, respectively. Consider also that the Imperial may already be maxed out at 250 skill points or at least can't spare the 6 skill points required to get the novice box for Smuggler. In essence, what this means is that the Imperial player is being given BETTER than Master Smuggler abilities without having invested ANY skill points. That is fundamentally contrary to one of the key principles of profession design and game balance.
It also sets a dangerous precedent for those of us who hope for a more robust contraband/tariff/smuggling system further down the road. By granting Imperials immunity to this particular method of law enforcement, the devs have set a precedent to which Imperials will forever cite. Let's say, oh, around Publish 16 or so, the devs decide it's time to implement a tariff system. Specific planets will now require you to pay a tax if you bring specific resources or items on-planet. On Naboo, you'll have to pay 3 credits per unit of Codoan Copper. On Corellia, you have to pay 400 credits for every T21 you carry. Etc., etc., etc. Now, let's be honest here. Smugglers, of course, can carry your goods for you and can get a 95% (at master level) success rate at moving said goods past customs agents. Now, if this system went live and Imperials were NOT given total immunity to it, I imagine there'd be plenty of people who'd start claiming it was a nerf, that it wasn't fair, that it broke continuity, etc., etc., etc. They'd say they were entitled to do whatever they pleased, regardless of how illegal it was, because they're the Empire and the Empire doesn't punish its own. Hey, look at the Crackdown. The Empire didn't care if you carried 50 crates of Muon Gold with you plus 25 sliced Krayt scatter pistols, did they? Why should they give a **edit** if you carry some Codoan Copper?
The upshot of this is that smugglers continue to basically be useless. We remain nothing more than slice/spice vendors, rather than the transporters of contraband/taxed goods that we SHOULD be. It also means that Imperials basically get to smuggle BETTER than a master without EVER spending a single skill point towards becoming a smuggler. That's just fundamentally wrong.
GamerProX wrote:
Now why did I not think to say that?
DeQuosaek wrote:
I'm sorry... This is not modern day... This is"A long time ago" and this is not Earth and its laws it is "A galaxy far far away".
rexan wrote:
Modern day example, its not OK for police officers to be carrying drugs "for personal use" while on the job.
good job DeQuosaek, I dont understand why people choose to play a game about Star Wars then try to change it away from that
Find the Dev Tracker!
Only High Rank Imps can avoid a scan and Smugglers can protect the whole group! Is it nothing"
Yes but does anyone know what high ranking means? How many credits does it take to BE high ranking (ie: how many faction points do you have to buy from us to take our skills?)
Said it a lot.
The problem isn't that we aren't grateful for this addition to our role in the galaxy. Far from it. What we're worried about is a potential loophole for when we recieve the abillity to actually smuggle. We're not worried that Imperials will be able to make spice and slice guns. We ARE worried that when the Dev's DO get around to giving us the abillity to move illegal goods from point a to point b, it will more than likely be based on these mechanics, as it would seem the easiest way to do it. If that's so then when we ARE given the abillity to smuggle Imperials will ALWAYS be better at it then we will, because while we have some abillity to bypass scans, they will ALWAYS bypass scans.
For instance: in this system why would Jabba have hired Han Solo to deliver the spice he had to drop? Wouldn't an Imperial Officer of high rank been a better choice given that he would NEVER get caught?
We aren't advocating that the Imperials shouldn't get a bonus in the GCW or have their rank not mean anything. I'm for that. I'm for Imperials getting an advantage in the GCW. And I'm a rebel. However, I don't think it's fair that their "in game" benefit intrude on my "out of game" mechanics (as in my profession). That is unfair, and unbalanced, and threatens our abillity to have a future role in the galaxy, as smugglers.
What is especially disheartening about all of this, is that we have debated this amongst our selves, rather heatedly for the past week, here on the in-live forum, had our Correspondent send our complaints onward for us, and sent PM's to the dev's all hoping to illicit a response. We've kept our arguements polite, constructive, and focused. We have gotten: no reply.
We realize that the dev's are busy but we have exhausted all channels of communication about what many of us feel is a critical issue to the future developement of our profession, and the devs haven't even responded with a, "Don't worry, what we have in store for you won't be affected by this." or even a, "Oh really? We'll look into it." We would have loved some sort of confirmation that our concerns were heard by someone.
As for testing, many of us tested this system, but the penalty changes have only been recently added. Not to mention that the basis for our discontent lies not in how the world as it is will be affected by this patch, but by how our profession will be affected by what we believe will be a large loophole in the future.
RougeSmuggler wrote:
You all just want tobe an uber-char, who can run throug the game in 2 weeks andbecome Jedi.
Dang guys, he found out our super secret plan! Who squealed!!!
/sarcasm
-red
If this is everything, you got from my message, than i am sorry for you.
Life is not fair, the Empire is not fair! I'v been living in a country full of communists, and that was the usual thing, that High Ranking Communists got everything, but the little man was arrested for hearing Free Europe (a radiostation in germany).
Here you have the right to choose betwenn being a smuggler or not being a smuggler.
Before this patch you got nothing, now you have something, but you complain! (you = all smugglers)
That is, what I can't understand!
GamerProX wrote:
Why of all things do the Smugglers choose something as small as an Imperial Colonel not being scanned a simple trooper to complain about. Of *ALL* the problems with Smuggle, and the type of content they should be complaining and pushing for, they choose this? Does this sound dumb to anyone else? I would be pushing for Special Smuggler Jabba Missions or something, Smugglers were gonna get NOTHING in this patch till people started yelling that they should get something, so they went from zero to...
95% chance of avoiding Scans,
Helping a *whole* group avoid a Scan
And helping the Rebels avoid Scans.
And yet for a small amount of players that are high ranking Officers, they complain? And STOP with this stupid idea that you think the Empire acts like todays cops, or todays armies, lol, the Empire acts more like 1940 Germany than it does anything else. Its a Government runby an evil Emperor aka Dictator (We aint talkin aboutahappy little kingdomhere boys and girls) In that type of Government the High ranking Officers do as they please and answer only to those above them (not a strom trooper), this is such a small silly thing to be complaining about, im shock Smugglers are wasting their time with it, with Professions like Bounty Hunter, Squad Leader, and so on, get next to nothing.
BTW, it is apart of Star Wars, the Devs got this right by allowing High Ranking Imperials ignore scans, you say they are smuggling? I say no, cause they dont have to smuggle anything. And what are you worried about? Prople standing in the Theed star port shouting for a high ranking imperial to hold their stuff? LOL Why would they do that when its far easier to just group with a smuggler. I rather take the 5% risk than the risk of the imperial making off with my stuff, haha.
/Applaud
Well said GamerProX!
Tesshu
Rebel Smuggler/Pistoleer
Gorath
Solo4114 wrote:
KgAutobahn wrote:
Im starting to get REALLY tired of the smugglers whining about how a hard time they are going to get. You are SMUGGLERS! You are´nt supposed to have an easy time. Smuggling is illegal. You had to see this coming sooner or later. This just adds another dimension to the game.
And one more things. Have seen rebells whining about how this is unfair, the same to you. Do you except life to be easy as a rebell in a imperial controlled galaxy?
Sorry you're tired of reading about it. What profession do you play? Imagine that the devs decided to give YOUR profession's abilities away to a faction and we'll see how happily you take it.
Since I haven't previously posted on this issue outside of the smuggler forum, I'll outline the argument here.
The profession system in this game is based on certain guiding principles. First and foremost is that no single player can do everything at once. That is why there is a hard and fast 250 point cap on skill points. You can spend your skill points however you like, but once they're gone, they're gone, unless you're willing to give up abilities to get them back. This is a key of the profession design and it helps foster profession interdependence because, as stated, no one can do everything themselves. I can't make my own armor or food. I have to go to someone else to do that, because I spent my skill points on becoming a smuggler, among other things.
What is smuggling exactly? I don't mean what do smugglers do in the game, because that sure isn't smuggling. At the present, we're slice/spice vendors, occasional faction point sellers, and we've got some pistol specials. We don't really play a major role in the game because we're kind of a directionless profession. Smuggling is moving illegal or taxed items from point A to point B without getting caught in the process. That's what smuggling is, and that's what smugglers do. And in this game, that's what smugglers WANT to do, but haven't. We haven't done so because nothing has been illegal. There are no taxes or tariffs to avoid. There is no contraband.
Well, along comes Publish 6 and the Imperial Crackdown. Contraband is implemented. This DIRECTLY affects smugglers because it goes to the very core of what they do and what they OUGHT to be doing in this game. Fundamentally, it directly implicates our unique role in this game's constellation of professions. Smugglers have been waiting since launch for abilities like this, and the crackdown's version of contraband doesn't even go far enough. That's beside the point, however, because at least it does implement SOME changes in our favor. Or does it?
At the same time that contraband and smuggler abilities to avoid contraband are being introduced, Imperials are given a free pass to scans if they are overt or if they are high ranking coverts (yes, folks, we DID read the GCW and In Testing forums, thanks). What's the practical effect of this? Imperials are given 100% success rates at moving contraband from A to B without being detected. Compare that to a MASTER smuggler who gets at best 95% success rates. Compare that to the NOVICE smuggler who only gets 15%.
Now consider the fact that both the master AND the novice have invested skill points in obtaining their 95% and 15% success rates, respectively. Consider also that the Imperial may already be maxed out at 250 skill points or at least can't spare the 6 skill points required to get the novice box for Smuggler. In essence, what this means is that the Imperial player is being given BETTER than Master Smuggler abilities without having invested ANY skill points. That is fundamentally contrary to one of the key principles of profession design and game balance.
It also sets a dangerous precedent for those of us who hope for a more robust contraband/tariff/smuggling system further down the road. By granting Imperials immunity to this particular method of law enforcement, the devs have set a precedent to which Imperials will forever cite. Let's say, oh, around Publish 16 or so, the devs decide it's time to implement a tariff system. Specific planets will now require you to pay a tax if you bring specific resources or items on-planet. On Naboo, you'll have to pay 3 credits per unit of Codoan Copper. On Corellia, you have to pay 400 credits for every T21 you carry. Etc., etc., etc. Now, let's be honest here. Smugglers, of course, can carry your goods for you and can get a 95% (at master level) success rate at moving said goods past customs agents. Now, if this system went live and Imperials were NOT given total immunity to it, I imagine there'd be plenty of people who'd start claiming it was a nerf, that it wasn't fair, that it broke continuity, etc., etc., etc. They'd say they were entitled to do whatever they pleased, regardless of how illegal it was, because they're the Empire and the Empire doesn't punish its own. Hey, look at the Crackdown. The Empire didn't care if you carried 50 crates of Muon Gold with you plus 25 sliced Krayt scatter pistols, did they? Why should they give a **edit** if you carry some Codoan Copper?
The upshot of this is that smugglers continue to basically be useless. We remain nothing more than slice/spice vendors, rather than the transporters of contraband/taxed goods that we SHOULD be. It also means that Imperials basically get to smuggle BETTER than a master without EVER spending a single skill point towards becoming a smuggler. That's just fundamentally wrong.
You should have read my later post on it! I'm orange:
GamerProX wrote:
Why of all things do the Smugglers choose something as small as an Imperial Colonel not being scanned a simple trooper to complain about. Of *ALL* the problems with Smuggle, and the type of content they should be complaining and pushing for, they choose this? Does this sound dumb to anyone else?
You talk about it like the Devs answer our phonecalls.
I would be pushing for Special Smuggler Jabba Missions or something, Smugglers were gonna get NOTHING in this patch till people started yelling that they should get something, so they went from zero to...
95% chance of avoiding Scans,
Helping a *whole* group avoid a Scan
And helping the Rebels avoid Scans.
And yet for a small amount of players that are high ranking Officers, they complain?
Right. Because it allows Imperials to be de facto smugglers in terms of how the game is played now. In fact, they will have 100% success of smuggling, better than a Master Smuggler who invested precious skillpoints.
And STOP with this stupid idea that you think the Empire acts like todays cops, or todays armies, lol, the Empire acts more like 1940 Germany than it does anything else. Its a Government runby an evil Emperor aka Dictator (We aint talkin aboutahappy little kingdomhere boys and girls) In that type of Government the High ranking Officers do as they please and answer only to those above them (not a strom trooper), this is such a small silly thing to be complaining about, im shock Smugglers are wasting their time with it, with Professions like Bounty Hunter, Squad Leader, and so on, get next to nothing.
If this were the Bounty Crackdown, you can bet that BHs would be a bit upset if Imperials, by virtue of their command over the galaxy, would be able to hunt the player bounties of lawbreakersand BHs were left with Jedi.
I wouldn't imagine that Dancers would get any attention in that Publish. But when there's a Publish, and part of it centeres on contraband scans, then you can bet that it implicates Smugglers in a big way. And so here we are, forces to discuss like crazy or let the train leave without us. The thing is, the Smugglers didn't set that train's schedule, we have to work around it.
BTW, it is apart of Star Wars, the Devs got this right by allowing High Ranking Imperials ignore scans, you say they are smuggling? I say no, cause they dont have to smuggle anything.
They don't have to, but they can. That's a problem, because if they can, some will, and they'll do it more effectively than someone who invested skillpoints.
And what are you worried about? Prople standing in the Theed star port shouting for a high ranking imperial to hold their stuff? LOL Why would they do that when its far easier to just group with a smuggler. I rather take the 5% risk than the risk of the imperial making off with my stuff, haha.
Maybe you would, but others wouldn't. And it's the principle at stake. I could be a Master Rifleman, but if I could invest some FP and pick up a hat that let me shoot all pistols as well as a Master Pistoleer, it would be imbalancing even if i didn't intend to use it. Skillpoints shouldn't be devalued, and no professions should have their core abilities stolen.
True Red, very true, good job, its nice to see another WWII buff =) But what you fail to understand is that theHigh Ranking Imperials in Star Wars *are* the Gestapo. Thats what they were, up tight, sometimes insane or just plain evil people. The "army" would beyour Low Ranking Imperials, and Stromtroopers, so by what you saying, The Gestapo would be scanned by their Stromtroopers? You gotta think "Star Wars" Not Modern.
RougeSmuggler wrote:
GamerProX wrote:
Why of all things do the Smugglers choose something as small as an Imperial Colonel not being scanned a simple trooper to complain about. Of *ALL* the problems with Smuggle, and the type of content they should be complaining and pushing for, they choose this? Does this sound dumb to anyone else? I would be pushing for Special Smuggler Jabba Missions or something, Smugglers were gonna get NOTHING in this patch till people started yelling that they should get something, so they went from zero to...
95% chance of avoiding Scans,
Helping a *whole* group avoid a Scan
And helping the Rebels avoid Scans.
And yet for a small amount of players that are high ranking Officers, they complain? And STOP with this stupid idea that you think the Empire acts like todays cops, or todays armies, lol, the Empire acts more like 1940 Germany than it does anything else. Its a Government runby an evil Emperor aka Dictator (We aint talkin aboutahappy little kingdomhere boys and girls) In that type of Government the High ranking Officers do as they please and answer only to those above them (not a strom trooper), this is such a small silly thing to be complaining about, im shock Smugglers are wasting their time with it, with Professions like Bounty Hunter, Squad Leader, and so on, get next to nothing.
BTW, it is apart of Star Wars, the Devs got this right by allowing High Ranking Imperials ignore scans, you say they are smuggling? I say no, cause they dont have to smuggle anything. And what are you worried about? Prople standing in the Theed star port shouting for a high ranking imperial to hold their stuff? LOL Why would they do that when its far easier to just group with a smuggler. I rather take the 5% risk than the risk of the imperial making off with my stuff, haha.
The German Military during WWII was a professional military just like the US Army is today. It was on the wrong side of the war, Yes. But it had discipline. High Ranking Officers were not shooting up in their quaters, or allowed to break rules established by the nazis at all. And ALL people of the military were afraid of a visit from the friendly Gestapo.
-red
And by the way, the dev's never said this abillity is exclusively for Colnels as far as I know. They never defined "high ranking officer." So we have NO idea how easy or expensive it is to buy your smuggler skills (from a smuggler no less). And even if it IS colnel, it's still a matter of credits.
KgAutobahn wrote:
Im sorry. Got the whole thing wrong
I'd wanted to make that point in this thread anyway. No harm done.
RougeSmuggler wrote:
GamerProX wrote:
Now why did I not think to say that?
DeQuosaek wrote:
I'm sorry... This is not modern day... This is"A long time ago" and this is not Earth and its laws it is "A galaxy far far away".
rexan wrote:
Modern day example, its not OK for police officers to be carrying drugs "for personal use" while on the job.
I think the bigger question, is why would you play a Star Wars game, and then pick and choose which aspects of Star Wars you want.
The Empire was harsh on everyone. The people in the military lived in just as much fear, if not MORE fear, then civilians outside.
-red
Thats not true Red, your High Ranking Imperials feared only the Emperor, Darth Vader, or the man above them (sometimes). Now your Low ranking Imperials had alot to fear.
Igesca that is because after this patch we can choose to be Imperials and smuggle, or be smugglers and pretend to smuggle.
Read my post above. We are grateful for what we got, but we are worried it will create future problems for us, when we actually get to REALLY smuggle.