Development Cycle Archive
Thread: IC4: Path of the Jedi
OctoyD
Fri Mar 19, 2004 8:35 am
#989
I think that the jedi system, first and foremost should not make you destroy your main character, and should not make you abandon all your main chacters skills right off the bat. How about a system which:
1. You have to obtain a certain number and combinaton of badges, or one key badge, and then a force Sensitive NPC will randomly spawn near you and if you notice and if you talk to them they will offer quests.
2. I am not going to get in to quest content, as it will muddy the focus which is structure. A series of these quests should be needed to gain xp for Novice lvl force access. I think that once novice lvl is unlocked, you should have to forefit some skill points and some type of skill, be it master lvl or whatever.
3. For every Jedi skill gained you should have to give up somthing from your old profession. This would be effective because you could go as far into the force as you want. Your character could just be a very lucky smuggler, that luck is the force. Or your crafter could just be very skilled (once again the force) and so on.
Kasteu
Fri Mar 19, 2004 8:55 am
#990
Given the devs have now stated that the new system will not involve a secondary character (ie. your main becomes the Jedi), how about the fighting style of your current skills is reflected in your jedi ones.
For example, a fencer/swordman would take to a single light saber (maybe even duel saber), but fight with different styles due to their background. A Pikeman would feel more at ease with a duel ended saber. A TK, with there high mind agility (e.g. meditate, etc) would take more to force powers.
As for none combat classes. Weaponsmiths should have a greater understanding of how to manufacture better sabers than combat only classes (at least to begin with). Armoursmiths should initially be able to craft better sabers that works around weaknesses in armour (i.e. maybe a higher AP rating, due to their "in" knowledge). Entertainers, initially stronger in mind control force powers (e.g. one like the old warcry..."you will not attack me") due to them knowing how to "please" a crowd.
These could be added by simply placing niche Jedi skill tables above the master profession, in addition to a generic separate one. I'm assuming Jedi skill points, will be separate to the standard ones.
I'm not saying tie people into these role, just that they would naturally find these routes easier. So would learn these skills sooner than others.
Also to be a Jedi you must forget your previous professional ways. Not loosing the knowledge, just not developing it further. That is your past, so no more profession swapping, standard professions are locked. This will add meaning to mastering professions, as these new tables would only be available beyond master and prevent novices who have a few friends helping them out (with the quests) becoming all powering in the shortest of time, unless they want to miss out on these perks. Which really just means, a weaker Jedi (in the end).
I know this still leaves out a lot of classes, just ideas and maybe something that could be expanded.
Oh one final thing, unlock another character slot. Just not a FSCS, so people can have an alt like current Jedi do.
For example, a fencer/swordman would take to a single light saber (maybe even duel saber), but fight with different styles due to their background. A Pikeman would feel more at ease with a duel ended saber. A TK, with there high mind agility (e.g. meditate, etc) would take more to force powers.
As for none combat classes. Weaponsmiths should have a greater understanding of how to manufacture better sabers than combat only classes (at least to begin with). Armoursmiths should initially be able to craft better sabers that works around weaknesses in armour (i.e. maybe a higher AP rating, due to their "in" knowledge). Entertainers, initially stronger in mind control force powers (e.g. one like the old warcry..."you will not attack me") due to them knowing how to "please" a crowd.
These could be added by simply placing niche Jedi skill tables above the master profession, in addition to a generic separate one. I'm assuming Jedi skill points, will be separate to the standard ones.
I'm not saying tie people into these role, just that they would naturally find these routes easier. So would learn these skills sooner than others.
Also to be a Jedi you must forget your previous professional ways. Not loosing the knowledge, just not developing it further. That is your past, so no more profession swapping, standard professions are locked. This will add meaning to mastering professions, as these new tables would only be available beyond master and prevent novices who have a few friends helping them out (with the quests) becoming all powering in the shortest of time, unless they want to miss out on these perks. Which really just means, a weaker Jedi (in the end).
I know this still leaves out a lot of classes, just ideas and maybe something that could be expanded.
Oh one final thing, unlock another character slot. Just not a FSCS, so people can have an alt like current Jedi do.
MohdriDarkstar
Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:14 am
#991
Stratics Interview Except:
[17:41] [Keldarin] Enabling your Force Sensitive skills will no longer require revoking skills or significantly changing you character.
[17:42] [Keldarin] There also won't be a specific Force Sensitive slot anymore, you will actually enable the Force skills for your current character and progress from there.
[17:42] [Haden] Our goal here is to make the progression towards becoming a Jedi feel more like the progression in the films, and to make it a bit more accessible.
I was reading the transcript, smiling until I got to this point in the interview. Make Jedi more accessible? They already are far too accessible at is it is! Please, Haden and crew, consider taking another stance with this one. The new quest-driven Force Sensitive process should be far, far, far more complex and time-consuming than even the current skills-based system.
If you are going to make it "more accessible," please make a clear distinction in the game between "Force Sensitive" and "Jedi." Force-Sensitive characters need not necessarily be Jedi, and still reap some sort of rewards a la "normal" profession enhancements, etc. That would certainly be one way to see less Jedi, as well, as I am sure some will prefer to keep their normal professions and just be "an elite-elite."
Still, we don't need Force-Sensitive Galaxies, either. (A round of KOTOR, anyone?)
SiliconSmiley
Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:32 am
#992
I'm not so sure I like this change now. Although, these comments indicate that the Jedi skill tree will be separate from the regular skills and that we may get to keep them. I could dig that I suppose.
Ewrrl
SiliconSmiley
Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:33 am
#993
Stupid non-editing posts.
I meant to say that the Jedi skills MAY be separate from regular skills.
Ewrrl
doctor_nl7
Fri Mar 19, 2004 10:59 am
#994
HI,
I heard it is possible to submit an opinion on the new quest 'jedi' concept....
I thing it is a good idea ,first,but I don't know how it can work to have a jedi charactere and sustain a life style of a normal citizen (house,pay tax,cloth,and so on...)
I would like to see the both possible, like being a jedi could be combine with being an ArmorSmith for exemple.I don't know how it is possible but it seem to me that the 'good' jedi should be involve in a social life and be in connextion somehow with the other player citizen, and gain some bonus out of it.
I meanlike being actif for the all community to enhance the game, and gain some benefit (sort of jedi awarness).So I thing it would be good to have some quest that could benefit the community (benefit or destroy for the light or the dark side 
What I finally mean is a sort of 'responsability' for the player to forfull the task to keep the good state of the force for himself (as a matter of controle of the population) therefore it could not be 'grinded' like many otherthing are...
What I finally mean is a sort of 'responsability' for the player to forfull the task to keep the good state of the force for himself (as a matter of controle of the population) therefore it could not be 'grinded' like many otherthing are...heiko maya
kor playa ,kauri
Lakroth
Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:56 am
#995
[17:42] [Keldarin] There also won't be a specific Force Sensitive slot anymore, you will actually enable the Force skills for your current character and progress from there
And what of the current Jedi that have done this already? Are you goingto merge the two into one? Unless you gain another 10 lots as well, I see big problems developing here. Too early to comment on unknown things like how do the skills of your current character effect your Jedi training, but this is no doubt going to be a rough area and cause for alot of dissention in the ranks.
Draknel
Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:06 pm
#996
Problem: It seems that a Jedi should be something that you should be able to start with or get within a reasonable amount of time. With the current holocron system the first 2 holos make it a clear line to get to the jedi path but the third has no basis in skills or abilities. I understand wanting to make people experience different careers but I have heard of people mastering nearly every profession only to get it after 10 or 15.
You casual gamers will never have the chance to get a Jedi character because they can't devote the time to get it no matter how badly they want it. I don't have time to play for days on end but was hoping to some day get to Jedi.
Solutions: I think a quest based jedi challenge would be good say you have a certain amount of quests to complete, from combat, to rare items. Maybe you have some riddles that require some work. If you want to keep the holo system maybe you could cap the third profession or create a set of riddles to help you to figure out your mystery profession. It seems unfair that something like playing a Jedi or not is completely up to randomization and who can grind out careers the fastest.
Question: Why not have it to where a jedi can train or unlock other characters so that they can become jedi?
Thought: It seems like if Jedi can be hunted they can also band together.
Also in most of the things I have read force sensitive does not mean Jedi. Why not add a force sensitive characteristic to characters to reflect their ability in the force. Why do FS slots have to be seperate. Luke became a Jedi he wasn't instantly one.
Finally why not create a Jedi server where Jedi have free rain. It would be interesting to have a server where the Jedi are more abundant, maybe create one with a different time frame. How bout in the time of knights of the old republic.
Just some thoughts.
the_WiZ
Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:46 pm
#997
At First I think the problem with BH camping Jedi trainer is quite easily avoided. Let the trainer move around and then let the player use the force to find him. In that way only Jedis are able to get to the trainer...
Second a lightside, darkside points system sounds cewl. This could also lead to the Dark Jedi master being a bit easier and qicker to reach and the Light Master Harder and longer but a bit more powerful in the end...
The quests should start up with actually finding the master that can initiate you to the jedi profession and then some quests to prove that you are ready to begin your training...
winddrake
Fri Mar 19, 2004 2:08 pm
#998
I think that the proposed idea of making your current character force sensitive is a good one. I also think that Jedi should be an optional profession, since during the movies there were undoubtedly force sensitive characters out there, but only a few recognized Jedi, Luke, Obi-Wan, Yoda, etc. I personally want to have a force witch from dathomir...
I have mentioned in the past ideas for playing droids and enhanced regular characters, which I still think is a good idea. This would give some options to the players who don't want to play jedis and would bring them closer in power to such uber force-wielding characters...
Sevan
Fri Mar 19, 2004 2:25 pm
#999
The Quest to find a Jedi Teacher
(Apologies if someone has already posted something like this, I haven't read all of the posts)
Once a character discovers their Force sensitivity, a Jedi teacher should not suddenly appear. Remember how Luke had to leave the beaten path, crash on Dagobah, and wander around wondering if he made a mistake?
So how does a Force-sensitive character find a Jedi teacher? This isa wonderful opportunity for a quest.
Let's first discuss the objective: the teacher.
For immersion factor, a Jedi character meeting his Jedi teacher should be a secretive and dangerous situation. The Jedi character should do what they can to avoid detection and to avoid revealing his teacher. If something should happen to his teacher, he would have to find another one, which could be difficult. I submit to you the possibility that there are teacher-less Jedi who can not learn much more because they cannot find new teachers.
Option A: The teacher is a static NPC trainer, like any other profession.
This would be easy to implement, but it has many drawbacks. Everyone would know where the Jedi go to train, which is obviously dangerous to all Jedi characters. Having crowds of Jedi students visiting this teacher would not have that Star Wars Jedi feel. This will not improve the immersion factor.
Option B: The teacher is a dynamic spawn NPC trainer.
This would also be easy to implement. Since the location is always random, it wouldn't endanger the Jedi population. There wouldn't be any crowds visiting the same trainer/teacher, which helps immersion. What this means, though, is that the Jedi character would spend a lot of time "looking" for his teacher whenever he needed training. It has too much of a random feel to it, and could be quite frustrating.
Option C: Each Jedi character has a different static "undercover" NPC teacher assigned.
To anyone else, the trainer appears to be a normal NPC standing around being worthless. This probably would take some significant implementation work. Again, no crowds, no endangering the Jedi population, and now the teacher is always easy to find for the student. But what's uncool about this is that your Jedi teacher may be standing next to the cloning center or some public area, which doesn't have the Star Wars Jedi feel to it.
Option D: Each Jedi character has a different static NPC teacher assigned, in a remote location, only spawning when the Jedi character is present.
When the Jedi character is not present, the trainer is not there. When they approach, the teacher is spawned like a dynamic spawn, but always in the same location. The implementation issue here is: if their location is random, how to keep them from spawning in ridiculous places; if their location is pre-designated, how to keep crowds of Jedi characters from having their trainers spawning in the same area. This isn't a bad solution, but perhaps it could be better.
Option E: Each Jedi character can "summon" their trainer through some sort of Force hocus-pocus device.
This is essentially calling a "pet". The trainer is portable. This would ruin the immersion immensely IMO (oh yeah, check out that alliteration!).
Option F: The teacher is another assigned player-controlled Jedi character.
AJedi character must meet another more advanced player-controlled Jedi character who is his teacher. Both are going to take measures to avoid detection, and the teacher may even accompany the student on some tasks (such as Luke and Obi-wan travelling together). Perhaps training reveals each character as a Jedi for a period of time. Most likely they will stay out of the public areas for that. But the hard part is missions and quests: how does a player-controlled Jedi character give another player character missions and quests? Any ideas? This solution might be very difficult to implement, and may open up more possibilities for exploits. But on the other hand, with the right system, the players are providing the content.
"Hmmm. Interesting idea, Sevan, but how does the first one learn?" That's another good question. Any ideas for how that might work?
Option X: ....... (fill in other options here)
Now let's discuss the process: finding the Jedi teacher.
This should be a very exciting process. It should not be a waypoint run. There should be challenges, and if possible, an immersive story (protagonists, allies, antagonists, setting, etc.).
Mechanics:
- Option A: NPC tells the Jedi character where to go, either vaguely or specifically.
- Option B: Jedi character uncovers clues which describe how to locate the teacher; this could involve some puzzle-solving.
- Option C: Another player Jedi character receives a mission. (Like a BountyHunter-Jedi mission) He must find the Jedi character and bring him to another place.
- Option X: ........ (fill in other options here)
Challenges:
There are all sorts of possible challenges.
- Some sort of "dungeon" run
- Puzzles (maybe geometry puzzles so the answer is not the same every time)
- Social interaction problems, such as discerning between two opposing stories and choosing the right one (like POIs)
- Travelling through very dangerous and remote areas alone
- .... (many other possibilities)
Story:
There are many possibilities for thestory underlying the quest. For the right immersion and Star Wars feel, perhaps the story could include an escape sequence, where the Jedi character must make his grand escape from the antagonists. The story could also establish the danger that the Jedi face from the Empire, perhaps introducing one or more Jedi-hunter characters or organizations, and demonstrating that the danger is real.
In addition, to make the quest difficult, the quest could be quite long, and if the character fails at any point, they start over again.
It could follow something like this:
- Social quest: Character discovers clues, tries to win the trust of people who can give him information regarding Jedi teacher
- Combat quest: The characters inquiries become noticed by spies who report it. Imperial Crackdown! Character must escape from crackdown squads with reinforcements.
- Puzzle-solving: The character determines their next step from solving puzzle from clues.
- Social quest: Character must find and persuade NPC (read: smuggler) to transport them to their destination; or character must find and persuade NPC to give them access to some critical information/item.
- Exploration quest: The character must travel to find the Jedi teacher. Setting is very important here. It should be frightening, dangerous, and solitary.
- Social quest: Character encounters one or more NPCs, leading to the the Jedi teacher.
- Combat quest: Perhaps the character was shadowed by Jedi-hunters, who take this opportunity to try and kill both the character and the Jedi teacher. (read: teacher reveals himself by demonstrating mad Jedi "skillz0rs")
That's just one idea of many.
Regarding the location of the Jedi teacher, the "smuggler" in step 4 could take the character to a dynamically spawned "dungeon" (like the Corvette is), which is just a mini-planet, ensuring the solitude, etc.
I'm just thinking on my feet here, so none of this was carefully considered. Anyways, please feel free to comment. I'm sure I made some mistakes somewhere.
Thunderheart
Fri Mar 19, 2004 2:42 pm
#1000
Ganaster wrote:
TH, thanks for giving us all a chance to post our ideas here. I noticed its up to 43 pages so far - I would have thought by now it would have been many more pages with everyone offering their 2c worth!
Thanks. These big threads do get read now that everything is organized...
Kovev
Fri Mar 19, 2004 2:57 pm
#1001
I think allowing player input was a great step.
Form what I've picked up so far, the new system sounds great. I realy like the concept of my mine, the one questign to become a jedi, being the jedi. I was sickened when I heard the first jedi unlock news, and that it was another slot. Koods on correcting this.
The grind system was horrible, it has turned me against SWG, adn frankly made me stop playing, it just is not fun. I'm glad to see changes in the works, and hope they will be here very soon.
What I can't understnad is why all this can't be released to the players as it's decided, or even making mini in concept posts to help with the decisions on what to do. Why does SoE always want to keep the players in the dark about what is being discussed, and what is coming regarding jedi? This frustrates me to no end. I for one, and there are many like me, will not be playing until the new system is in, or we are kept up to speed on what's happening with the jedi system.
If you don't keep the members informed, or mix this right away, you will loose an extreme number of members. This is not a threat, I'm just pointing out what seams to be being ignored.
Form what I've picked up so far, the new system sounds great. I realy like the concept of my mine, the one questign to become a jedi, being the jedi. I was sickened when I heard the first jedi unlock news, and that it was another slot. Koods on correcting this.
The grind system was horrible, it has turned me against SWG, adn frankly made me stop playing, it just is not fun. I'm glad to see changes in the works, and hope they will be here very soon.
What I can't understnad is why all this can't be released to the players as it's decided, or even making mini in concept posts to help with the decisions on what to do. Why does SoE always want to keep the players in the dark about what is being discussed, and what is coming regarding jedi? This frustrates me to no end. I for one, and there are many like me, will not be playing until the new system is in, or we are kept up to speed on what's happening with the jedi system.
If you don't keep the members informed, or mix this right away, you will loose an extreme number of members. This is not a threat, I'm just pointing out what seams to be being ignored.