Development Cycle Archive

Thread: IC 1-12: Combat Roles; Rifleman

BaronJedi
Thu Jan 22, 2004 8:48 am
#79

The way PvP is currently set up, a speed cap would destroy the profession in PvP. And especially if our accuracy is decreased like some of these nerf herders want. In most PvP fights you would get about1-2 shots off before your opponent is right in your face. I doubt you will kill your opponent in one shot if they have on armor. I don't remember ever one shotting someone with a Jawa either.




Draxx Py're | Master Rifleman | Master Squad Leader

)D(ark )F(orce )R(ising
DECarbineer
Thu Jan 22, 2004 9:41 am
#80

What defensive abilities?


take cover should make us disappear from the radar. Where is the sniping aspect when you see a big red dot on the radar.



Ifrin the former mon cal rifleman now most fishy jedi on the server
Glaza-X
Thu Jan 22, 2004 10:26 am
#81


What defines theRiflemanrole in combat? Long Ranged Combat , With limited sustainability. Cover fire for advancing Groups. Rifleman bring up the rear of an assualt squad.


What basic combat elements should they possess? Long Range, Area Coverage w status Changes (stun/dizzy), Ranged Deathblow


What offensive abilities? Area Damage (stun/dizzy), Mind damage. All of this at the cost of ones own Mind making them targets of other riflemen and other mind damaging profession.


What defensive abilities? Good Ranged Defense,Lower Status Defense. (aka stun/dizzy/knockdown)


What unique abilities? Ranged Deathblow


Should add what advantage or asset in group combat? With the current build of rifleman, rifleman fill the role of back of the pack. WithAOE status (stun/dizzy) they complement other ranged and melee profession quite well. With tendencies to target the mind pool they are good hunter/killers of other rifleman or anyother profession that is often Low on mind. Ranged Death blow allows for clean upof downed Enemy players and allows group members to focus on current threats.


How could/should they interact with other professions? Rifleman are core members of any group, filling in roles on all sides of the coin. With In PVE combat they have the ability to single pull most hostile creatures, provide area coverage for group assistance, yet have the tendency to be rather frail when engaged at close range. In PVP, rifleman provide extra fire power for squad engaments, and complement all aspects of PVP conflict. Currently they are balance between damage and fratility.


What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants? Rifleman depend on Squad members to keep the target out of melee range. They provide status changes that promote squad sustainablity . In terms fo Ranged Professions, Rifleman provide good cover fire and complement BH/Carb's quite well with Flurry/Flushing Shot. In terms of Melee combat profession, rifleman can assist quite well to all melee professions and complement swordsmen with tendency to do mind damage.


What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War? Rifleman (currently) provide Stealth and flexiability to both Solo and squad based combat. In my eyes a combat group is not complete with out a rifleman in the mix.


My Character has always been defined by my rifle. In the past few months I chose to pick up TKA because for the fragle nature of Rifleman in Melee Range. With that choice I kick my self everyday for not choosing it sooner , as I have enjoyed every single time I log on.


PsychoticChipmunk
Thu Jan 22, 2004 10:33 am
#82






Xytroncore wrote:





Gwee-Godo wrote:


fix carbineers and pistoleers so they are on par with rifles.




If you can think of another way then to intitute a speed cap I'm sure the devs will hear it....but all of you just keep saying fix the other classes blah blah blah without actually saying how, I'm willing to bet you can't think of a way that makes sense(outside of the speed cap) ....rifles already do 3x more damage then pistols (on average), so slowing them down to 1/3 of a pistol's speed evens it out. And as someone else said earlier, the speed cap wouldn't hurt riflemen in PvP since you have conceal, which lets you remain hidden for a long time against most targets. So if you can't conceal yourself and still be able to takeout a target then you're taking on stuff that you shouldn't be able to solo anyways and then this is a good change for PvE too.







Well, the thing is that most of us here play rifleman ( ) and as such we know things about our profession and how it can be improved, although as it stands there isn't much needed since we work quite nicely, we aren't carabineers or pistoleers so we don't know what to do with their professions to fix them. Let those profession people deal with it since it is in their area of expertise. Do the things that _____ said in the carabineer thread and )()()()( said in the pistoleer forum that have no regard to rifles and then we'll see how things pan out.


And if you want to hear my idea on how to fix the other professions outside of introducing an inane speedcap then here. Pistols should be devastating in melee range so that the guy with the gun will win vs other ranged professions a lot if you are in a small area or up close. Give carabineers a bit more powerful a weapon and some more state effects so that they can go full auto (just like we can and should be able to) to do some good damage and screw with people's stats/posture/dizziness/you name it. For melee...I have no clue.




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CorporateDan
Thu Jan 22, 2004 11:10 am
#83

Instead of having different guns do different things (fast vs slow rifles). Just have different modes (stances) that increase accuracy and increase speed delay, or decrease accuracy, increase speed, and be AoEs. I think that is better then having different guns do different things. Just look at my post before, explains it well.



Shamoke=Godzilla
Godzuki=Asexual offspring ridden by Godzilla
MSP0
Thu Jan 22, 2004 11:13 am
#84

What defines the Rifleman role in combat?

The Rifleman is the most elemental part of a modern army. S/He is in the front line providing volume of fire, and supporting each other member of the squad. The rifleman is the core of the squad, a soldier. No one should be better on a battlefield situation against infantry. Riflemen fight in squads of many riflemen to great effect. A lone rifleman is a dead rifleman.


What basic combat elements should they possess?

Staying power in the form of best use of cover, ability to remain in the front line without running low on ammo (read HAM).

Volume of fire to deterr enemy advance. I.e: ability to stop an advance, make the enemy think twice about approaching a position defended by riflemen.

Hand to hand. Rifles are NOT helpless in hand to hand. Bayonets and Rifle butts are far better melee weapons than knives, and pistols.

Good Mobility. Between heavy weapons and light infantry (AKA SMGs)


What offensive abilities?

Rapid suppressive fire.

Accurate fire when needed.

Good damage on basic weapons.


What defensive abilities?

Excellent use of cover. A static position defended by multiple riflemen should need artillery to be taken.

Ability to use armor in combat.

Good mobility. An infantryman aka Rifleman does a lot of walking. Only recon troopers move better.


What unique abilities?

Long Range. This is the only thing a rifleman should have that is not available to any other battlefield combatant. That is because they are the prototype of a modern fighter.

Sniping. Though not the be all of rifleman, they should be the only people out there taking called shots past 20m.

They should rule Battlefield/mass combat against human sized targets. They should be weak in one-on-one.


Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?

Suppressive fire. Riflemen throw large volumes of fire to impede the enemy from firing back/advancing. In SWG terms, I guess an AOEposture down attack with delay on the next action. Flurry/flushingshot come close.


How could/should they interact with other professions?

They should be at it's best when led by a squad leader.

Armorsmiths and Weaponsmiths should love these guys. More weapons, weapon attachments(bayonets, sights, underslung attachments, field modifications to weapons), custom armor.


What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?

Squad leaders should seek out rifleman in numbers, and rifleman should seek Squad leaders. Riflemen should rule supreme in a well led group. Perhaps a riflemen should have an additive effect to volley fire.

Commandos should support riflemen. A squad consists of several riflemen and a couple heavy weapons specialists. The riflemen protect the heavy weapons, the heavy weapons do the heavy damage.


What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?

They should be the frontline trooper, and there should be dozens of troopers by their side.



Makkil of Wanderhome - Assistant to the Mayor of New Defiance, Naboo
(Master Rifleman/Master Bio-Engineer)

Supreme Cuisine and BioTech, at the Market in New Defiance
-4267, 3107, On New Defiance, Naboo (1.2km SSE of Theed)
T-Bone78
Thu Jan 22, 2004 12:48 pm
#85

We do need at least 1 more gun. We need a sniper rifle. You wouldn't use a t-21 or m60 or saw to sniper someone. Sniping is a single shot, taken from cover, quietly without anyone seeing you. If you use one of the above guns you'll pull the trigger and 3-4 shots will escape. Hardly making you a sniper. (That's if they fix the sniping part of our class and give us the ability to snipe. If they don't then we wouldn't need any new guns because they are all Gunner type weapons anyways.)



T-bone
On SWG Vacation
Gwee-Godo
Thu Jan 22, 2004 1:44 pm
#86

Do not nerf one of the only functioning professions please! The same goes with TKA! Fix the bogus professions so they are up to speed. Nerfs wont balance anything. The other professions are borked, and that is why they are inferior.


A speed cap cripples PvE players. This is not an option.


Also consider the issue of DPS. When people calculate ours they seem to always use the highest number. This, as anyone that has been through high school can tell you, gives a faulty figure. You need to use the average damage of the weapon, not its top end. Using the top end gives you 'Highest Potential Damage Per Second.' No one ever figures in all the times that we bottom out on damage and do next to nothing. Statisticly, I do 'Minimum Potential Damage Per Second'just as often.Thusly, a damage cap is not an option.


If I am forced to start a new profession because of these continual nerfs, I might as well just start playing a new game while I am at it. Things that are not broken do not need fixed, fix carbineers and pistoleers so they are on par with rifles.
BaronJedi
Thu Jan 22, 2004 2:02 pm
#87

Well said Eaca. Being vulnerable to KD is a huge weakness for a Rifleman because so many professions have it. I can take out my opponent quickly, yes, but not if I am on the ground. I have been panic shotted, KDed, and last ditch spammed for 900+. But I don't go crying to the Smuggler boards saying how overpowered their pistol skills are. Can I beat most Master Pistoleers (by itself) 1v1? Yes. But in that case of the Smuggler (or BH with dizzy/KD combo)fight above, I sure as hell am wishing I had that gunfighter defense vs. status line.




Draxx Py're | Master Rifleman | Master Squad Leader

)D(ark )F(orce )R(ising
Xytroncore
Thu Jan 22, 2004 3:48 pm
#88






Eaca wrote:





Xytroncore wrote:





Gwee-Godo wrote:


fix carbineers and pistoleers so they are on par with rifles.




If you can think of another way then to intitute a speed cap I'm sure the devs will hear it....but all of you just keep saying fix the other classes blah blah blah without actually saying how, I'm willing to bet you can't think of a way that makes sense(outside of the speed cap) ....rifles already do 3x more damage then pistols (on average), so slowing them down to 1/3 of a pistol's speed evens it out. And as someone else said earlier, the speed cap wouldn't hurt riflemen in PvP since you have conceal, which lets you remain hidden for a long time against most targets. So if you can't conceal yourself and still be able to takeout a target then you're taking on stuff that you shouldn't be able to solo anyways and then this is a good change for PvE too.







Why are you so insistant in turning every class into a pistoleer with different damage and speed ranges. Equal and balanced doesn't have to mean the same. Why can't one class out damage another, so long as they have some other weakness to balance them out. The point isn't to make a game where everybody has an equal chance to beat somebody else. This is rock-paper-scissors. Each class has its own set of strengths and weaknesses. We're not trying to balance combat for dueling, we're trying to balance it for large scale group combat, where each class has its own unique role to play.



But, you have no weaknesses to balance anything....hell, the 2.5x melee mod would do nothing, use conceal shot and you waste PvE missions without creatures even seeing you, lol big deal about the 2.5x melee mod (completely useless change, wouldn't help at all to reinstate it). And if you spend the same amount of skill points as someone else on a proffession then there should **edit** well be an equal chance to take out the other person, if there isn't balance there then why bother becomming proffession A when proffession B costs the same amount of skill points but does more damage in the same amount of time? lol and trying to balance large group battles? haha, okay, so riflemen don't rule there either? I can tell you for a fact that a riflemen will generally come away with 3x the faction points that anyone else comes away with. Tell me, that sound ballanced to you?




_________________________________________________________
Manimal : Gunslinger
PsychoticChipmunk
Thu Jan 22, 2004 3:57 pm
#89






Xytroncore wrote:
But, you have no weaknesses to balance anything....hell, the 2.5x melee mod would do nothing, use conceal shot and you waste PvE missions without creatures even seeing you, lol big deal about the 2.5x melee mod (completely useless change, wouldn't help at all to reinstate it). And if you spend the same amount of skill points as someone else on a proffession then there should **edit** well be an equal chance to take out the other person, if there isn't balance there then why bother becomming proffession A when proffession B costs the same amount of skill points but does more damage in the same amount of time? lol and trying to balance large group battles? haha, okay, so riflemen don't rule there either? I can tell you for a fact that a riflemen will generally come away with 3x the faction points that anyone else comes away with. Tell me, that sound ballanced to you?






No, it sounds like other profession are lagging behind and need to get caught up to speed with us. You want us to pick how that happens though? Why should it be our job to go through all the other profession threads and explain what should be done to fix them when, now read this, we don't play them! You want us to be nerfed rather then get the other professions balanced up? You want everyone weaker rather then all the others stronger? That sounds a little bit less fun to me personally. And why should we focus on balancing PvE when most complaints are spawned from PvP encounters. Give us the 2.5x modifier and we are dead around the 10 meter mark so there is your balance, get close to us and we haven't got a prayer. If you want master pistoleer and master carabineer to be equal at rifleman (no matter the situation) then you're going to have to piss off the BH's and smugglers by removing their stacking powers. After all why would you choose profession A which will always loos to hybrid B when hybrid B's cost isn't really thatmuch morein comparison to profA?


Oh and as for the concealshot for PvE missions, yes we have the option to completely solo a lair and only get incapped twice (you have to spawn more beasts from their hidey hole) however that takes far longer then using a carbine or pistol and their specials. Hell I kite pickets with flushing shot rather then conceal them it is just too long. I could have finished 2 missions by the time I would have cleared out the nest with it.


Why am I feeding trolls?




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Eaca
Thu Jan 22, 2004 4:20 pm
#90

Here I go feeding him too...




Xytroncore wrote:

But, you have no weaknesses to balance anything....hell, the 2.5x melee mod would do nothing, use conceal shot and you waste PvE missions without creatures even seeing you, lol big deal about the 2.5x melee mod (completely useless change, wouldn't help at all to reinstate it). And if you spend the same amount of skill points as someone else on a proffession then there should **edit** well be an equal chance to take out the other person, if there isn't balance there then why bother becomming proffession A when proffession B costs the same amount of skill points but does more damage in the same amount of time? lol and trying to balance large group battles? haha, okay, so riflemen don't rule there either? I can tell you for a fact that a riflemen will generally come away with 3x the faction points that anyone else comes away with. Tell me, that sound ballanced to you?







Alright, conceal shot is a different matter, great idea but it is overpowered, I'll grant you that, should have a better chance of being broken. I will also grant you that with our current defense mods and damage we are overpowered. You won't find many true rifleman that disagree on this. Again as far as A being better than B, why can't A be better than B so long as C is better than A and B is better than C. This is what lets us have different play styles, and doesn't force us to all be the same like you want. The point of this discussion is to find a way to maintain class differences while providing a balance that is currently lacking. There is always going to be some class/combination that is currently the best at any given thing. Some classes are better at tanking large creatures, some classes are better at farming credits, again tho, this lets people choose a play style and goal that suits them. Is rifleman currently balance? No, we are overpowered. What myself and manyothers here have tried to suggest is a way to bring us back in balance with the rest of classes without sacrificing our uniqueness.


As far as why rifleman get more FP in a battle. Snipershot, plain and simple, I suppose you want to nerf this now too? (FYI snipershot has a tremendous HAM penalty associated with it, fully buffed when nothing else has any HAM costs, sniper shot still takes a good chunk of HAM off, I think unbuffed it takes over 300)
oulad
Thu Jan 22, 2004 5:14 pm
#91






PsychoticChipmunk wrote:





Xytroncore wrote:
But, you have no weaknesses to balance anything....hell, the 2.5x melee mod would do nothing, use conceal shot and you waste PvE missions without creatures even seeing you, lol big deal about the 2.5x melee mod (completely useless change, wouldn't help at all to reinstate it). And if you spend the same amount of skill points as someone else on a proffession then there should **edit** well be an equal chance to take out the other person, if there isn't balance there then why bother becomming proffession A when proffession B costs the same amount of skill points but does more damage in the same amount of time? lol and trying to balance large group battles? haha, okay, so riflemen don't rule there either? I can tell you for a fact that a riflemen will generally come away with 3x the faction points that anyone else comes away with. Tell me, that sound ballanced to you?






No, it sounds like other profession are lagging behind and need to get caught up to speed with us. You want us to pick how that happens though? Why should it be our job to go through all the other profession threads and explain what should be done to fix them when, now read this, we don't play them! You want us to be nerfed rather then get the other professions balanced up? You want everyone weaker rather then all the others stronger? That sounds a little bit less fun to me personally. And why should we focus on balancing PvE when most complaints are spawned from PvP encounters. Give us the 2.5x modifier and we are dead around the 10 meter mark so there is your balance, get close to us and we haven't got a prayer. If you want master pistoleer and master carabineer to be equal at rifleman (no matter the situation) then you're going to have to piss off the BH's and smugglers by removing their stacking powers. After all why would you choose profession A which will always loos to hybrid B when hybrid B's cost isn't really thatmuch morein comparison to profA?


Oh and as for the concealshot for PvE missions, yes we have the option to completely solo a lair and only get incapped twice (you have to spawn more beasts from their hidey hole) however that takes far longer then using a carbine or pistol and their specials. Hell I kite pickets with flushing shot rather then conceal them it is just too long. I could have finished 2 missions by the time I would have cleared out the nest with it.


Why am I feeding trolls?







manimal isnt a troll, hes the biggest whiner on the tarquinas server. And hes a combat medic, and ive seen them devestate groups of 10 in a few seconds with mind poison, so he has no right to scream nerf when his class is virtually as powerful in pvp as a rifleman.



Torgo Ecry
Magnus Instruo - Rogue Squadron
Rebel Sharpshooter + some other stuff

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