Development Cycle Archive
Thread: IT 7-4: Experimentation Resource Quality
Kerico
Mon Mar 08, 2004 2:41 pm
#79
Devs: Please be honest about this change and admit that it is part of the combat balance.
It is not a coincidence that this crafting change is coming during the combat balance phase.
You're trying to cut down the strength of combat players by toning down the crafted items that are available to them. You're forcing them to choose between HAM costs or effectiveness, damage or durability, strength vs time.
Right now you have goliath combat characters running around in 90% effectiveness armor, 3k ham buffed from doctors/dancers, krayt enhanced damage sliced weapons, and controlling custom tailored bioengineer pets. We understand wanting to balance this.
While you can't totally stop it, this crafting change will severely cut down the top end or make it terribly costly thus pulling some of the top end (not all of them)closer to those lesser equiped players.
That's fine... just tell us that you're not trying to limit us, but instead limit the users of our product. To say that you're doing this because too many master crafters where feeling unfair competion from novice crafters is insulting.
In the short term, this is going to be extremely painful to crafters and starting players (especially to those players that don't read the boards). It is going to widen the gap between haves and have-nots, and this will linger for many months to come. I can see several in my guild who will take this a harsh blow when they're already feeling frustration.
In the long run this may be a good change for crafting, because knowing most consumers... they will choose damage over durability and become more frequent customers.
Keh' Icoh - Ahazi
Jumas
Mon Mar 08, 2004 7:11 pm
#80
Phetro:
My source of information was TouYuan (multiline) and Utess (single line) postings on the first page of this thread. I realise that someone that plays on test center is more realiable than someone who don't, like me. I just wanted to points out some misconceptions it peoples postings. I take it that you think this is a nerf. Please post some hard numbers from your profession that shows it! The only one I've seen was a WS on the WS forums that made a scout blaster with what he thought was crap resources.
Jumas
Tue Mar 09, 2004 1:37 am
#81
Some (not so) quick notes (apparently) :
I dont play on test center, so I haven't tested anything myself, but I see a lot of misconceptions in the posts about the present and/or the proposed crafting system.
- "Schematics containing resources with "missing" stats make our products worse!"
No, they dont. The resource qualities are blended _after_ they are averaged.
[edit:] I had a very long section here explaining craftingmechanics,that I cut away. I previewed my message and saw that it was too long and repetitive, I think I will save that discussion for another thread. Just take my word for now that a "missing" resource stat is a good thing for a crafter. It makes our products better in general.[/edit]
Why people bring this up in this discussion is probably because they confused the issue with missing stats with the discussion of capped stats (see below)
- All multiline schematics will be be worse by [insert arbitrary number that looks bad here] % .
Most so called multiline schematics are already essentially single line schematics as pointed out earlier in the thread. Often you put 9 or 10 points in the main line (power for docs, damage for WS et.c) and put 0, 1 or your skill tape points in a second line. If I understood the thing correctly the new system will actually improve your results with good resources.
So the final products will actually be better with the new systems under these premises:
- Master crafters (as opposed to holo crafters) have access to 900+ resources for most resource slots in the stats that matter.
- Many schematics have same or similar stat requirements for their "secondary" lines as their primary lines
- when choosing what line to put excess points in crafters will either choose the line most compatible with their resource or choose the resources most compatible with the line.
Which leads me to the next common complaint:
- "I just grinded my way to master [insert prof here] and I cannot make any good stuff, because I dont have any resources! the new system will make me suck even more!"
Having bad resources wasn't such a great idea in the old system. In the new system it will be an even worse idea, and I won't deny that. As a resource junkie I welcome this change. My advice to you is to surf to http://swgcraft.com as soon as you learn novice in your crafing profession (I do it long before I even get novice) and write down all resources needed for your schematics as well as their required resources and start looking for them while you grind. This includes harvesting current resources (also found on swgcraft), buying old resources on the bazaar and maybe even ask around other players for old good resources. The latter will cost a lot of money. You cant expect to buy rare resources for bazaar prices, but if you intend to make some money as a master those money will be well spent. I have been within 5% of the best masters on my server in every crafting profession I have mastered so far, and yes - I am a holo grinder.
- "This will only benefit the +20 experimentation millionaries"
I don't see how the change has anything to do with the number of experimentation points. If you had good resource before you would use 9 or 10 points in one line and 2 or 3 points in the secondaries.
Now you will have to use 10 points in the primary line with slightly better result (or 9 with slightly worse result) and 2 or 3 points in the other line (with about the same result). Nothing really changed except your item became slightly better or slightly worse. If you had bad resources.. Well. You just made a bad item.
- "This is a nerf to us paying millions for +20 experimentation"
See above. The change doesn't make any difference if you have 1,2,3 or 12 experimentation points. Unless you use bad resources that is.
And the last one:
- "Schematic XXX needs a capped resource and the new system will make them suck even more"
This, I must admit, is true. In the old system a weapon with "capped" resources in power before would have a better range or HAM cost instead. Now it will just be capped in power, or have just great HAM cost. The solution for this could be to change the requirements or resources for certain schematics or change the caps on some resources. But I don't like the idea of removing resource caps altogether. It would be boring if every resource class was the same as every other just with another name. I think any change should be made _per schematic_ rather than a general change. The question of changing the weapon schematics is really a question of combat balance more than a crafting issue. For instance the T21 that has been up to discussion doesn't really need to be any better; that of course, is my personal opinion after being a rifleman, carbineer and pistoleer. Riflemen doesn't necessarily agree, but lets save that discussion for another thread 
.
.When I first read Thunderharts note on the weaponsmith forum 'in the old system, good resources made bad items and vice versa (greatly simplified)' [note: not an actual quote, I wrote it as I remember it] I thought he was simply wrong. I guess that statement still is kind of wrong, but something like "in the old system a crafter with bad resources could hide their badness by claiming they upped the secondaries on purpose" has some true to it. I welcome this change, and I guess a lot of the "real" crafters out there see the potential as well. But we are being outnumbered by a factor 10:1. Some of the people that are against the change probably are so for good reasons, but I belive 90% of the petition signers doesn't really have enough understanding of how crafting works (neither on live server nortest center). Most of them probablysigned because ofthe "allitems will be worse by [insert bad number here]" myth that floats around.
Jumas Beiron
Master Grinder, Farstar
Sarkyn
Tue Mar 09, 2004 2:05 am
#82
Jumas wrote:Most so called multiline schematics are already essentially single line schematics as pointed out earlier in the thread.
Except Combat Medic Schematics are truly multi-line. I can't sell a poison without a certain minimum Range (1 line), Potency (1 line) or Damage/tick (1 line).
Often you put 9 or 10 points in the main line (power for docs, damage for WS et.c) and put 0, 1 or your skill tape points in a second line. If I understood the thing correctly the new system will actually improve your results with good resources.
Only if you spend more Xp points than you did previously.
So the final products will actually be better with the new systems under these premises:
- Master crafters (as opposed to holo crafters) have access to 900+ resources for most resource slots in the stats that matter.
CM Metals require CD, OQ, DR and UT. Hard to get a 900+ in all 4. But yes, I have actually. Just *not much of it*
CM Organics require OQ, PE, DR. Hard again, especially with Insect Meat.
Factor in a desire for malleability, and we've got a really tough shopping list.
Many schematics have same or similar stat requirements for their "secondary" lines as their primary lines
Line #1
Range CD/OQ
Charges OQ/UT
Area CD/OQ
Line #2
Skill OQ/PE
Potence OQ/PE
Duration OQ/DR
Line #3
Power OQ/PE
when choosing what line to put excess points in crafters will either choose the line most compatible with their resource or choose the resources most compatible with the line.
I *need* all 3. It's not a choice. The poison defines the CM, and without all 3, it's very hard to be effective.
Which leads me to the next common complaint:- "I just grinded my way to master [insert prof here] and I cannot make any good stuff, because I dont have any resources! the new system will make me suck even more!"
/agree.
I am a holo grinder.
Which makes me think you didn't bother to stop to craft anything as you breezed through Combat Medic with a Tumble Monkey.
- "This is a nerf to us paying millions for +20 experimentation"
Quite the contrary. Those of us with 12/12 in Cm/Doc will be massively advantaged. If we choose to go single line, we have a lot more chance of hitting a magic 100%. If we don't, we'll have more points to perhaps still eek out a respectable range.
This increases the difference each Xp point makes.
In conclusion, your thread was well-thought out, but a little flawed. For my class (and I won't presume to understand other classes), multi-line crafting with an even spread of Exp points is a must-have, not a like-to-have.
If I don't do potence, the poison won't stick.
If I don't do effect, it won't tick.
If I don't do range, I'll be dead before I throw.
But thankyou for an interesting read and some salient counterpoints.
atimes
Tue Mar 09, 2004 8:12 am
#83
Jumas wrote:
Phetro:
My source of information was TouYuan (multiline) and Utess (single line) postings on the first page of this thread. I realise that someone that plays on test center is more realiable than someone who don't, like me. I just wanted to points out some misconceptions it peoples postings. I take it that you think this is a nerf. Please post some hard numbers from your profession that shows it! The only one I've seen was a WS on the WS forums that made a scout blaster with what he thought was crap resources.
Read more. Later on in this thread TouYuan changed his mind after more testing. He isn't so hot about the change now.
Phetro
Tue Mar 09, 2004 9:28 am
#84
Jumas wrote:
Phetro:
My source of information was TouYuan (multiline) and Utess (single line) postings on the first page of this thread. I realise that someone that plays on test center is more realiable than someone who don't, like me. I just wanted to points out some misconceptions it peoples postings. I take it that you think this is a nerf. Please post some hard numbers from your profession that shows it! The only one I've seen was a WS on the WS forums that made a scout blaster with what he thought was crap resources.
That figures. Keep reading on--single-line items are the ONLY things that benefit AT ALL. TouYuan CHANGED HIS MIND when he took a better look at what this nerf does. Read the whole thread.
Amscu_Edfo
Tue Mar 09, 2004 3:08 pm
#85
Kerico wrote:
"Devs: Please be honest about this change and admit that it is part of the combat balance.
It is not a coincidence that this crafting change is coming during the combat balance phase."
They were honest with us. In November. I dont know how many people remember, but back when these morons put this on test the first time, they yanked it, but they also told us that it was leaving temporarily and that it would be back, with tweaked code, during the combat revamp.
So where is the tweaked code? The fact that you lessened crit failures for us? That is another subject entirely and if you Devs count that as the "tweaked code" then you are way dumber than we all thought.
Also, with Nerf 7 already trickling out, Id say its a done deal. The only way that we can counteract this is to convert all of our resources into as many components/crafted items as we can, uncrate them, put them on vendors and..., well I think we all know what would happen with hundreds of thousands of additional items added to the database in a matter of days don't we? =) Other than that, we have to just live with it. So don't get mad, get even. =)
Oh yeah, and for all of you that are frantically trying to make items now so you have a "pre-nerf" market, TH told us to do that for a reason. Remember that this change is also supposed to make the field more level for masters/non-masters. How, you ask? The reason why he told us to stockpile now is so we would use all of our old resources up and they will then nerf the crates with Nerf 7, like they are doing with the previous pre-nerf crates, and then "fix" them in Nerf 8, but with "enhanced" stats.
We did not ask for this, nor do we want it. As a matter of fact we are screaming at the top of our lungs against it. We pay to play, and contrary to your beliefs devs, this is our game, not yours, and if you trash it, then you can play it by yourselves.
"Devs: Please be honest about this change and admit that it is part of the combat balance.
It is not a coincidence that this crafting change is coming during the combat balance phase."
They were honest with us. In November. I dont know how many people remember, but back when these morons put this on test the first time, they yanked it, but they also told us that it was leaving temporarily and that it would be back, with tweaked code, during the combat revamp.
So where is the tweaked code? The fact that you lessened crit failures for us? That is another subject entirely and if you Devs count that as the "tweaked code" then you are way dumber than we all thought.
Also, with Nerf 7 already trickling out, Id say its a done deal. The only way that we can counteract this is to convert all of our resources into as many components/crafted items as we can, uncrate them, put them on vendors and..., well I think we all know what would happen with hundreds of thousands of additional items added to the database in a matter of days don't we? =) Other than that, we have to just live with it. So don't get mad, get even. =)
Oh yeah, and for all of you that are frantically trying to make items now so you have a "pre-nerf" market, TH told us to do that for a reason. Remember that this change is also supposed to make the field more level for masters/non-masters. How, you ask? The reason why he told us to stockpile now is so we would use all of our old resources up and they will then nerf the crates with Nerf 7, like they are doing with the previous pre-nerf crates, and then "fix" them in Nerf 8, but with "enhanced" stats.
We did not ask for this, nor do we want it. As a matter of fact we are screaming at the top of our lungs against it. We pay to play, and contrary to your beliefs devs, this is our game, not yours, and if you trash it, then you can play it by yourselves.
MattS423
Tue Mar 09, 2004 4:18 pm
#86
I have not tested this, but i have read the comments about it, and i have a suggestion:
If final product quality is more directly related to resource quality, why not allow archetects to build refineries, which could only be placed by people with a certain skill (survey IV?). Materials could be placed in these refineries and be "refined" to have better stats in certain areas (player-specifed for a lower % increase, or random for a higher % increase). If the player specifes the stat(s) he wants increased, other stats will go down. Random stats wouldnot beincreased at the expense of others.
That way, higher quality resources are easier to get, but theyare really only good forcertain things.
Honkwomp
Tue Mar 09, 2004 7:01 pm
#88
I am against any system which puts more emphasis on resource quality. While it will help you when you have all great quality resources, it will harm you much more when not ever resources is the best
Crafting quality stimpack b's take 8 different resources, all but two
Honkwomp
Tue Mar 09, 2004 7:04 pm
#89
I am against any system which puts more emphasis on resource quality. While it will help you when you have all great quality resources, it will harm you much more when not ever resources is the best
Crafting quality stimpack b's take 8 different resources, all but two are specific. I wonder what the odds of all 6 of those spawing in decent quailty at the same time? Not to mention just how darn hard it is to accumulate large quantities of any decent herb meat my medic and my bio engineer need. It has been weeks since decent dath insect meat spawned on naritus
Corwinn
Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:16 am
#90
This change supports those that have 20+ million sunk into experimentation tapes and/or are in uber guilds. Its a severe blow to the more time limited player.
I can hear the whining that cause this change, "I have 13 experimentation points and all the other "regular" masters with 10 can make weapons almost as good as mine ... there's no differentiation for the extra 3 points."
I have noticedthe ones that like the changes usually are the ones that have "only 12 experimentation points". What a joke. Or experiment only in 1 area ... good bye to armor with good resists and low enc.
If this goes live the way it is I expect to be closing up shop shortly there after ... and whether I continue or cancel my 2 accounts will be seen, but stuff like this and the continuing changes that make the game more loot oriented and camp oriented are definitely causing me to lean in the direction of cancel.
I can hear the whining that cause this change, "I have 13 experimentation points and all the other "regular" masters with 10 can make weapons almost as good as mine ... there's no differentiation for the extra 3 points."
I have noticedthe ones that like the changes usually are the ones that have "only 12 experimentation points". What a joke. Or experiment only in 1 area ... good bye to armor with good resists and low enc.
If this goes live the way it is I expect to be closing up shop shortly there after ... and whether I continue or cancel my 2 accounts will be seen, but stuff like this and the continuing changes that make the game more loot oriented and camp oriented are definitely causing me to lean in the direction of cancel.
Corwinn
Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:34 am
#91
Jumas wrote:
- "This will only benefit the +20 experimentation millionaries"
I don't see how the change has anything to do with the number of experimentation points. If you had good resource before you would use 9 or 10 points in one line and 2 or 3 points in the secondaries.
Now you will have to use 10 points in the primary line with slightly better result (or 9 with slightly worse result) and 2 or 3 points in the other line (with about the same result). Nothing really changed except your item became slightly better or slightly worse. If you had bad resources.. Well. You just made a bad item.
The person you quoted here is absolutely correct. You not understandingthis explains why you support the change ... or you are someone with >10 experimentation points.
Right now on something with say 80% maxes due to resource stats I can cap one line of experimentation in 8 experiments and have 2 left over to bring up something else. With the change it will take me 10 experiments to cap that mainline ... the only way I am bringing up a secondary is with added experimentation points through tapes.
For most weapons I don't see this as a problem (ham and range experimentationhave always beenpretty useless, the only blow comes to max condition ... except heavy weapons were you will not be able to up the charges after maxing the damage). But for other areas, such as armor medicinals,it will be significant.